Air Belgium in 2018

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RoMax
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by RoMax »

sean1982 wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 17:26 Hold your horses fanboys, there are enough protectionist hands above SN's head, which is best apparent by the "proposition" that BRU airport made. Laughable really :D

I do hope that Air Belgium will be a succes. There is nothing better for a market than some healthy competition.
BRU/BAC is just following legislation. They have to treat all airlines equally in terms of pricing per type of passenger (dep, arr, transfer, transit) and other operational charges. They can only differentiate by giving incentives and they are monitored on that by the involved authorities. The full incentive scheme of BRU is publicly available. The biggest incentives (and for the longest period of time) are given when an airline starts a fully new intercontinental route and that's exactly where Air Belgium ran out of luck with Cathay and Hainan being quite active on that field recently. If an airline only adds frequency to an existing route, the incentives will be very limited.

So the statement of Air Belgium that an agreement with BRU would mean that they are not allowed to enter into competition with other airlines is not entirely wrong but very open to interpretation (exactly their intention of course). They can compete, BRU is simply not allowed to block them as long as they receive slots from the Belgian slot coordinator, but then they simply don't get the high incentives that they would get for launching fully new routes. Obviously at CRL that's not an issue for them.

N77014
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by N77014 »

Interesting explanation RoMax, but then I find their statement quite unfair. Anyway, I am really curious about the "20 minute process" from parking to boarding for premium passengers ( luggage drop-off included ? ). If they are able to realize that, it would be a very nice unique selling point... BRU can be very (read : too) busy sometimes... Think about the queues at passport control for pax to non-Schengen destinations... Wishing Air Belgium all success, hope to see them fly soon !

carllegein
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by carllegein »

I have the privilege working with Niky Terzakis. He is one of the exceptional great minds in aviation. I would not underestimate his strategic plans. A blessing for belgian aviation !

ostair
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by ostair »

crew1990 wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 14:45
Shonix wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 13:42 CRL's success is only due thanks to Ryanair. Without Ryanair, we'd never be talking of CRL. Have a look at Ostend or Antwerp airports. Nobody cares.
Ryanair flown to Ostende and Ostende didn't manage to keep them. Charleroi made the right investment to attract Ryanair in Charleroi, if Antwerp would have done the same, then we would have been certainly a Antwerp Brussels North Airport as it's closer to Brussels. So yes Ryanair play a very big roles in the success of CRL but this is first thanks to the investment of Wallonia. Don't get me wrong, I'm a proud Belgian and I'm very happy to have successful Walloon airport thanks to the Walloon investment and amazing seaport thanks to the flemish investment.
Now Ryanair wants to operate from OST but they aren't welcome anymore by the "TUI fly loving" management.

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by sn26567 »

ostair wrote: Now Ryanair wants to operate from OST but they aren't welcome anymore by the "TUI fly loving" management.
The TUI fly loving management cannot oppose the application of Ryanair.
André
ex Sabena #26567

ostair
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by ostair »

Off topic, they can't but is Ryanair willing to pay the full fare and creating a precedent for themselfs?
Its not not a major airport like BRU so I don't think so.

Back on topic, I wish AB all the best.

Poiu
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 19:35 BRU/BAC is just following legislation. They have to treat all airlines equally in terms of pricing per type of passenger (dep, arr, transfer, transit) and other operational charges. They can only differentiate by giving incentives and they are monitored on that by the involved authorities. The full incentive scheme of BRU is publicly available. The biggest incentives (and for the longest period of time) are given when an airline starts a fully new intercontinental route and that's exactly where Air Belgium ran out of luck with Cathay and Hainan being quite active on that field recently. If an airline only adds frequency to an existing route, the incentives will be very limited.
Aren’t you forgetting the reduced security costs (hidden subsidies for BRUAIR), which were based on obsolete pax numbers to exclude most of the competitors?
It is clear that there is lobbying against AB behind the scenes, that was one of the reasons of today’s press conference. Impossible you say? Think JAF which never recieved traffic rights for flights to FIH.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Passenger »

Poiu wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:44 Think JAF which never recieved traffic rights for flights to FIH.
Luckily they never got them. Their Sales department was in panic when they heared about the official "request for slots"...

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lumumba
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:54
Poiu wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:44 Think JAF which never recieved traffic rights for flights to FIH.
Luckily they never got them. Their Sales department was in panic when they heared about the official "request for slots"...
Why?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Desert Rat »

Regarding traffic in and out of China, second tier cities like Qingdao, Nanchang, Nanjing,Wuhan, Kunming, Jinan etc...let's keep in mind that for flight to Europe, pax needs to fly first to an international hub like Shanghai or Beijing to get a flight to Europe...hence the stop is there already.
Although we start to see direct flight from Chengdu, Qingdao, Nanjing, Kunming to Europe or North America.
Some direct like AMS-CTU, KMG-CDG, or with a stop like KMG-NKG-SFO or similar..

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RoMax
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by RoMax »

Poiu wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:44 Aren’t you forgetting the reduced security costs (hidden subsidies for BRUAIR), which were based on obsolete pax numbers to exclude most of the competitors?
It is clear that there is lobbying against AB behind the scenes, that was one of the reasons of today’s press conference. Impossible you say? Think JAF which never recieved traffic rights for flights to FIH.
Both examples are pure federal government matters and a such have no relation whatsoever with a statement that BRU did a proposal which "prohibits them to compete with other airlines". If that would indeed be the case (and not like I described it with the incentive scheme which is very clear and transparent), Air Belgium would file an official complaint against BAC and BAC would have no feet to stand on. I think we both know why they kept it just with a nasty statement towards them, don't we?!

For the other cases. The security charges were indeed a big failure in trying to compensate the Ryanair subsidies in Charleroi, but were clearly and solely aimed at this airline. All 3 major Belgian airlines were treated equally and proportionally. However none of the 3 ever used the money anyway, it was only 'paid' for a few years and all paid back voluntarily before the formal conclusion of the EC investigation as the outcome was cristalclear from the very beginning.
Regarding FIH and TUI, seriously?! For years SN used all 5 traffic rights that Belgium had in the bilateral agreement and set up a special construction with a Congolese airline to 'lease' the 2 Congolese traffic rights to be able to serve FIH daily (everyone always claims on this forum it is so important to fly daily, well yes it is, it's one of the main competitive advantages of SN in that market). Then finally the bilateral agreement was extended so that Belgium got the rights for 7 flights per week (after years and years of lobbying by the Belgian authorities and SN!!) and then you think these should have gone to another airline at the expense of SN's hard work to get those rights after paying way too much for them for years?! An airline with no experience whatsoever in that market, without a hub network so unable to serve any transfer flows, without any knowledge on the extreme difficulties of the DRC (operating there, working there, even simply living there as a Western person with foreign interests, etc) solely to serve the local Belgium-DRC VFR market? Because no they wouldn't even be able to capture the local business market to a significant extent, many Congolese still like bling bling (cheap in reality or not, it has to look luxurious or expensive in any case) and JetairFly/TUI is just not that. So yes I can fully understand the comment here about their sales department being in panic about it, having to fill 2 weekly widebodies with local VFR traffic in such a difficult market completely unknown to them. Would that have been in the best interest of Belgium, just for the sake of competition, and by that hurting SN's position on the global market to/from the DRC?

The only reason for SN to be really against Air Belgium is because they are fishing in the same pool of Airbus pilots. But in that perspective VLM is (much) worse looking for A320 and A330 pilots.
And even if there is lobbying from their side (nobody forbids anyone to lobby anyway, it is the job of thousands of people every single day in Brussels), that has nothing to do with AB's choice for CRL which is clearly purely based on costs.

sean1982
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by sean1982 »

lumumba wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 05:19
Passenger wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:54
Poiu wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:44 Think JAF which never recieved traffic rights for flights to FIH.
Luckily they never got them. Their Sales department was in panic when they heared about the official "request for slots"...
Why?
No They weren’t. They knew that the powers that be would protect their chou-chou. It was a good attempt at exposing the favouritism though

convair
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by convair »

sean1982 wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 11:03
lumumba wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 05:19
Passenger wrote: 31 Jan 2018, 23:54
Luckily they never got them. Their Sales department was in panic when they heared about the official "request for slots"...
Why?
No They weren’t. They knew that the powers that be would protect their chou-chou. It was a good attempt at exposing the favouritism though
Do you really think there is no favoritism for BA in the UK?

Sometimes, favoritism is justified, as explained by Ro-Max above.

Luckily, there are a few people with brains on this forum.

sean1982
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by sean1982 »

convair wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 13:04
sean1982 wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 11:03
lumumba wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 05:19

Why?
No They weren’t. They knew that the powers that be would protect their chou-chou. It was a good attempt at exposing the favouritism though
Do you really think there is no favoritism for BA in the UK?

Sometimes, favoritism is justified, as explained by Ro-Max above.

Luckily, there are a few people with brains on this forum.
Thank you for the personal insult, very classy.

Yes, BA is probably favourited, difference being that BA is one of the biggest airlines in europe, and a major player in the world, providing about 50.000 direct jobs and a few 100.000 indirect. In SN’s case, all that lobying and tax money resulted in ... an absorbing into a German group with a potential of it disappearing all together into a pan-European group. My brains are doing fine thanks

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Passenger »

Let’s try to go back op topic.

I can understand that Air Belgium prefers a Walloon airport above BRU. Specially when "Walloon" taxpayers money is going to be invested. But I really don’t understand why they then choose CRL above LGG. The extra leg CRL-LGG is not for free: they burn fuel for the take off from CRL and for 2 x taxi movements, and it adds one hour duty time.

CRL-LGG won’t be easy to sell to their Chinese touroperators: those guys know it’s gonna be more then just 15 minutes flying time. And for them CRL is already a poor choice, compared to BRU: Brussels is probably going the last overnight of the tour. So instead of adding an easy shuttle from a Brussels hotel to BRU, it’s going to be real bus trip from a Brussels hotel to Charleroi Airport. Lost time: 1-2 hours. Add with a fuel stop after 15 minutes, the Chinese touroperators will insist on a nonstop flight out of LGG.

My guess: their recent announcement is a real boost for CRL. And it allows Sowaer to invest in CRL, allowing them to compete to BRU on the long haul market. But within a few weeks, when Air Belgium has its AOC and when they can sign allotments with Chinese touroperators, they will announce that they will use LGG as departing airport “for operational and technical reasons, untill the runway at CRL has been extended". Thus outbound out of LGG and inbound into CRL.

Maybe someone can calculate the cost of that CRL-LGG leg, and then compare it to the more expensive airport taxes for 275 pax and the more expensive handling costs for an A340 at BRU?

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luchtzak
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by luchtzak »

Who said something about an extra leg between Charleroi and Liege ?

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by sn26567 »

There will be NO CRL-LGG leg. The planes will fly directly from CRL to China, with a restricted passenger number (257 pax) and a limitation of the freight (<12t). And the take-off will be done with maximum thrust, which will impact the duration of the engines.
André
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lucas
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by lucas »

Passenger wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 15:05
I can understand that Air Belgium prefers a Walloon airport above BRU. Specially when "Walloon" taxpayers money is going to be invested. But I really don’t understand why they then choose CRL above LGG. The extra leg CRL-LGG is not for free: they burn fuel for the take off from CRL and for 2 x taxi movements, and it adds one hour duty time.
I do understand their choice for CRL. People here on this forum forget that CRL announced to build a railway station directly under the airport. Moving to Brussels will be much easier than from LGG.
And I also don't understand where that LGG-CRL leg is coming from. You have to be stupid to do such thing.

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by Airbus330lover »

lucas wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 16:53 I do understand their choice for CRL. People here on this forum forget that CRL announced to build a railway station directly under the airport. Moving to Brussels will be much easier than from LGG.
And I also don't understand where that LGG-CRL leg is coming from. You have to be stupid to do such thing.
I understand it too. No interline with other airlines, but a lot of connections possible....
For the railway, see other topic, it will be in Fleurus not under the airport

crew1990
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Re: Air Belgium: a rebirth?

Post by crew1990 »

Airbus330lover wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 16:56
lucas wrote: 01 Feb 2018, 16:53 I do understand their choice for CRL. People here on this forum forget that CRL announced to build a railway station directly under the airport. Moving to Brussels will be much easier than from LGG.
And I also don't understand where that LGG-CRL leg is coming from. You have to be stupid to do such thing.
I understand it too. No interline with other airlines, but a lot of connections possible....
For the railway, see other topic, it will be in Fleurus not under the airport
There will be no train station under CRL, the train station will be the one of Fleurus with a direct connection to CRL

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