Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Poiu
Posts: 897
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 21:17
lumumba wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 20:57 That's just an excuse it was already very hot but they just use this last one ...And it's even not complete true because it started before Paris....
Don't look for somebody's responsibility what's happening in RDC is bad very bad....
I don't understand that people don't feel nothing about,you can not continue to work with them like nothing happens.
Sometimes we criticized politics because they do nothing now they moving and taking there responsibility and we blame them it's very sad...
Don't forget children and all families where killed not so long in the Kasai and you guys want to continue to give blind money....
How can you sleep.....
And that justifies that Kabila sanctions Brussels Airlines?
Off course this doesn’t justify sanctions against SN, but that is not the question!!
The question is what is more important: speak up and maybe have something changed in the long run or shut up in the name of commercial benefits?

b720
Posts: 891
Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by b720 »

I don’t think that we or Any other country have the moral right to point fingers and interfere in other countries’ business.. and it is bad for business.. stick to the business I would say ..

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1894
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Conti764 »

lumumba wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 14:58
sn26567 wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 14:52
lumumba wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 14:37 Congo has a special historical and economic history with Belgium.
That's why we are involved in this country not so long even or army was based in Congo.
Belgium is the first country to invest there with private companies and humanitarian etc...
Belgium was optimistic in the beginning with Kabila and offered a lot of help like I said before even with an army base etc....
But when you are involved you pay the price when the counter part is a bloody dictator at the end.
We are not involved in China!!!!!!
Belgium WAS involved in D R Congo, but has since long been overtaken by China, France and Spain who are less cautious with human rights. When Belgium was insisting on new presidential elections, France and Spain looked in another direction: they refused to let the EU take sanctions against Kabila because Total wants to extract oil in the Congo and Spain is building electrical power stations there.

When the economy is more important than human rights...
You are right about France and Spain I expressed it myself in my post.....
But Belgium is still very involved in Congo Chinese are far from taking over they had big contracts for big projects but on the field it's still a lot of or compatriots working because you need a lot of experience for that and we have it.
Put a Chinese in Tshikapa he will not survive 1 week!!!!!
Not wanting to have a political discussion here, but I fail to comprehend how Belgium has to take 'responsability' for everything that happens in Congo while other countries with far bigger interests in the country look away? Belgium again sticked its nose in Congolese politics and look, Brussels Airlines gets punished. Like someone pointed out, Air France is till happily flying to FIH...

I feel very sorry for Congolese people, but the sad and truly tragic reality is that ever since Belgium left the country (and imho should have never been there in the first place, but let's not have this discussion) they have known nothing but dictatorship and misery. Mobutu, Kabila senior and junior, they all took personal advantage of the incredibly rich Congolese soil at the cost of their own people. Very, very sad indeed.

The only man who might have changed things to the better for the Congolese, got killed with Belgian help. But given your knickname I don't have to tell you about him.

The only more or less stable and growing country in the region is Rwanda, and that stability came at the cost of an unprecedented genocide and a de facto (soft) dictatorship.

flightlover
Posts: 710
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by flightlover »

b720 wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 08:55 I don’t think that we or Any other country have the moral right to point fingers and interfere in other countries’ business.. and it is bad for business.. stick to the business I would say ..
As the lefties all justify the migration wave with 'What do you expect when dropping bombs on ISIS', we might as well just turn back the complete globalisation on the human rights front. Or would that be 'a bridge to far'??

And that statement about 'bad for business', for public air transport it is. But let's ask that to i.e. Lockheed Martin or FN, they will definitely disagree.

I know not straight to the point for this topic (no ISIS or war), but just to show there is always someone that complains or gains.

Only other way of getting peace there is colonising them again and help them to get a real democracy and some proper education (without religion involved) iso plundering them and showing how dictators work.

b720
Posts: 891
Joined: 04 May 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by b720 »

flightlover wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 09:33
b720 wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 08:55 I don’t think that we or Any other country have the moral right to point fingers and interfere in other countries’ business.. and it is bad for business.. stick to the business I would say ..
As the lefties all justify the migration wave with 'What do you expect when dropping bombs on ISIS', we might as well just turn back the complete globalisation on the human rights front. Or would that be 'a bridge to far'??

And that statement about 'bad for business', for public air transport it is. But let's ask that to i.e. Lockheed Martin or FN, they will definitely disagree.

I know not straight to the point for this topic (no ISIS or war), but just to show there is always someone that complains or gains.

Only other way of getting peace there is colonising them again and help them to get a real democracy and some proper education (without religion involved) iso plundering them and showing how dictators work.

And Germany will colonise us to teach us how to you’re out corruption? Politics aside, we are a tiny country, with or share of problems .. we should mind our own business sort out our problems.. and expand our economy by doing business with the whole world.. we do business with countries by far worse than Congo.. it is very unfortunate that SNis loosing one of its most prized routes in africa ..

Inquirer
Posts: 2095
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Inquirer »

I'm not going to get involved in the political discussion that is going on here, i'd just want to add a comment to this suggestion:
Passenger wrote: 18 Feb 2018, 12:03 There is a much cheaper solution: Alexander De Croo (junior) invites the Ambassador of Congo (and partner) to a dinner in the Comme Chez Soi. Alexander De Croo then tells the Ambassador that he apologizes for his statement that Belgium demands more results from its cooperation aid. De Croo explains that he only wanted to say that improvement is possible with new technology like solar power and robotics. And De Croo asks that the Ambassador transmits his apologies to Kabila. The next day, the traffic rights are reinstalled.
Although the diplomatic process probably would take a bit more time than suggested here, it might be interesting to consider for a second that the Belgian government's reluctance to even start mending the problem for B.air might be on purpose?! :!:

Think about the coincidential convenience of the events:

1- A couple of weeks ago, a German shareholder unilaterally decided to take full operational control of their equity investment in Belgium because they were not satisfied with the pace nor style at which the Belgian management were doing things, notably also in Africa were they were reportedly said by the Lufthansa CEO to be too much 'biking and socializing' and not focusing enough on the immediate return, thus enforcing more of a teutonic attitude at the top of the company.

2- And then suddenly a diplomatic issue came along with significant impact on one of the key routes to Africa, which is obviously one of the reasons why Lufthansa wants Brussels airlines in the first place.
It's very clear this issue can only be (started to be) solved with a lot of diplomatic goodwill and 'massaging' from the Belgian government, but let it be such that our government have felt the need to explicitly explain to the Lufthansa CEO via both a face-to-face meeting AND diplomatic contacts through the German Chancellery that he'll better think twice before simply folding Brussels Airlines into some recently set up spin-off of his, as if it is just a regional venture in his big plan...

3- We don't know if this meeting was very convincing in itself (even though a lot of effort was put in appeasing everybody and reassuring such was definitely not the plan), but I can't but notice that the current issues in RDC are a very convenient and almost immediate illustration of the important commercial problems ahead for Lufthansa and their investment in Brussels Airlines when they'd no longer be able to unambiguously rely on the continued diplomatic support of the Belgian government throughout Africa if and when they simply make Brussels Airlines a Eurowings branche as if it were to be a German company operating from BRU.

In all, although I don't have proof of it, I don't think it's too far fetched our government is currently letting Mr. Spohr and his handpicked German-lead management team in BRU feel the full heath of the African kitchen for a while on this, for I am pretty sure Germans with a strict rule enforcing background are quite easily underestimating the importance of human flexibility and personal interaction (also between nations) on operations in African countries which are a fair bit less rules based and of which they have a very limited understanding, unless they are made to experience it themselves. ;)

Poiu
Posts: 897
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Poiu »

Nice conspiracy theory Inquirer, but far from reality I think.

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 594
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Inquirer wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 11:27 2- And then suddenly a diplomatic issue came along with significant impact on one of the key routes to Africa,
The diplomatic issue is certainly not « suddenly », it’s already dragging on for well over a year. The lobbying of lufthansa via the german ambassador were key to not having the sanctions imposed last year. If it depended on the belgian/european government, the bilateral traffic reduction would already have been instated last year.

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1894
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Conti764 »

Ansett wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 14:22 I have not read all the post integrally because the problems with the DRC are recurrent ones and SN can always expect some "action" against Belgium also through SN. It's part of doing business with the DRC (and some other African countries).

If I did understand correctly, the number of flights must be reduced ? But no the capacity ? So, why couldn't LH fly one of its 747s on certain days on behalf of SN ;-) or could SN lease a 747 from a leasing company ? I know it is important to get daily flights especially for business travellers, but as a provisional solution...
A380 Brussels Airlines - Operated by Lufthansa. We give them a small sticker on the door...

convair
Posts: 1945
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by convair »

And why on earth do they keep SN351/2 BRU-Douala-Kinshasa and back? For the moment only 3 non-stop BRU-FIH and back out of the 4 FIH freqhencies allowed by "His Majesty".

Why not 1 or 2 SN353 BRU-Douala-Luanda-BRU to replace the 3 SN359 and add 1 SN357/8 BRU-FIH-BRU replacing the SN351?

That would make a few more seats available for Kinshasa pax. Too simple? ;)

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 2059
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by lumumba »

convair wrote: 25 Feb 2018, 22:41 And why on earth do they keep SN351/2 BRU-Douala-Kinshasa and back? For the moment only 3 non-stop BRU-FIH and back out of the 4 FIH freqhencies allowed by "His Majesty".

Why not 1 or 2 SN353 BRU-Douala-Luanda-BRU to replace the 3 SN359 and add 1 SN357/8 BRU-FIH-BRU replacing the SN351?

That would make a few more seats available for Kinshasa pax. Too simple? ;)
I had the same idea a couple of poste before but it seems they prefer to fly empty to Luanda and over full to Kinshasa....

But I think it's a crew problem they all stay in Kinshasa on this flights so they try to keep it that way.
But is it so difficult to find a Hotel in Douala...you can make it in two legs the first to Douala and another crew Douala-Luanda-Douala it was already like that before on the Brussels-Kinshasa-Luanda-Kinshasa-Brussels.
But than again your crew is staying one week abroad that's to long I think....

The other possible is to take a Hotel in Luanda but I think it's very expensive but it seems the best idea to keep the Kinshasa flights non stop.

Anyway it's always easier to have non stop flights in general like all the Air France flights to Africa(only for Bangui it's different)

But on the other hand for the same reason Brussels Airlines could offer a daily flight to Kinshasa that is also a big advantage.
But now it's lost maybe time to change of strategy and try to offer more non stop flights.
In that matter maybe the a321neo could offer some solutions.
If Brussels Airlines stay with 4 flights it also would be smart if Lufthansa start with two flights to Kinshasa so they keep 6 flights together like in Luanda.

A hope that for the summer timetable they resolved it.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

crew1990
Posts: 1484
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by crew1990 »

convair wrote: 25 Feb 2018, 22:41 And why on earth do they keep SN351/2 BRU-Douala-Kinshasa and back? For the moment only 3 non-stop BRU-FIH and back out of the 4 FIH freqhencies allowed by "His Majesty".

Why not 1 or 2 SN353 BRU-Douala-Luanda-BRU to replace the 3 SN359 and add 1 SN357/8 BRU-FIH-BRU replacing the SN351?

That would make a few more seats available for Kinshasa pax. Too simple? ;)
This is actually not as simple as you think, I don't know why and how, but what is sure, is that neither Douala nor Luanda are crew station at the moment. with 1 or 2 rotation BRU-DLA-LAD-BRU, it would result with a full crew stuck there for a week or half a week. Then there might be a shortage of crew to operate the rest of the operation.

Passenger
Posts: 7267
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Passenger »

According to AFP, Kinshasa has refused entry to two journalist from public broadcaster VRT:
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/tw ... ~ab09852b/

Apparently they travelled on visa, issued by the DRC's consulate in Antwerp. But Kinshasa says those visa are invalid because the consulate was officially closed.

AFP reports the two journalists travelled via Paris. Probably rerouted because of the strike...

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40829
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote: 16 May 2018, 23:02 According to AFP, Kinshasa has refused entry to two journalist from public broadcaster VRT:
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/tw ... ~ab09852b/

Apparently, they travelled on a visa, issued by the DRC's consulate in Antwerp. But Kinshasa says those visas are invalid because the consulate was officially closed.

AFP reports the two journalists travelled via Paris. Probably rerouted because of the strike...
There is more to that story. The Antwerp Consulate is closed, but some Congolese employees remained there and found it funny (!) to continue to issue visas, against money (of course) that ended up in their pockets. Not surprising that the embassy and the ministry consider those visas as invalid.
André
ex Sabena #26567

convair
Posts: 1945
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by convair »

sn26567 wrote: 16 May 2018, 23:10
Passenger wrote: 16 May 2018, 23:02 According to AFP, Kinshasa has refused entry to two journalist from public broadcaster VRT:
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/buitenland/tw ... ~ab09852b/

Apparently, they travelled on a visa, issued by the DRC's consulate in Antwerp. But Kinshasa says those visas are invalid because the consulate was officially closed.

AFP reports the two journalists travelled via Paris. Probably rerouted because of the strike...
There is more to that story. The Antwerp Consulate is closed, but some Congolese employees remained there and found it funny (!) to continue to issue visas, against money (of course) that ended up in their pockets. Not surprising that the embassy and the ministry consider those visas as invalid.
If that story is true, you have here 2 belgian journalists, embarking for a mission to DRC, who are not aware that the consulate in Antwerp has been closed more than 2 months ago! They were certainly well-prepared and competent for that mission! :roll:

Didymus
Posts: 190
Joined: 17 Jul 2010, 15:13
Location: Ghent, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Didymus »

I find it more worrisome that the DRC keeps fraudulent diplomats in Belgium.

convair
Posts: 1945
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by convair »

Didymus wrote: 17 May 2018, 19:33 I find it more worrisome that the DRC keeps fraudulent diplomats in Belgium.
Indeed, and since the consulate has been closed, they should be expelled from the country.

Passenger
Posts: 7267
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Passenger »

Wait! The consulate in Antwerp hasn't been closed by the Belgian government. It was a decision from the government of DR Congo, as part of their reply to the decision from Alexander De Croo, in January 2018, about Belgian development aid. De Croo decided to redirect it from DRC-government controlled bodies to DRC NGO's.

Hence: there is no reason to expell Congolese diplomats.

Hence: the visa that the Congolese Consulate in Antwerp has issued, were issued normally and were valid. But they were issued to two journalists from public broadcaster VRT, not known to be "Kabila friendly". So they were refused entry for two reasons: the VRT should ask permits to the Embassy in Brussels, and Kabila is still waiting for apologies from De Croo.

convair
Posts: 1945
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by convair »

Passenger wrote: 17 May 2018, 20:55 Wait! The consulate in Antwerp hasn't been closed by the Belgian government. It was a decision from the government of DR Congo, as part of their reply to the decision from Alexander De Croo, in January 2018, about Belgian development aid. De Croo decided to redirect it from DRC-government controlled bodies to DRC NGO's.

Hence: there is no reason to expell Congolese diplomats.
Since the consulate was closed by the RDC government, it obviously can no longer deliver valid visas. Unless the 'diplomats' were relocated to Brussels embassy or to another consulate, there is no reason for them to stay in Belgium, hence the need to expell them.
Passenger wrote: 17 May 2018, 20:55 Hence: the visa that the Congolese Consulate in Antwerp has issued, were issued normally and were valid. But they were issued to two journalists from public broadcaster VRT, not known to be "Kabila friendly". So they were refused entry for two reasons: the VRT should ask permits to the Embassy in Brussels, and Kabila is still waiting for apologies from De Croo.
I'm well aware of the circumstances around that new episode of the RDC-Belgium relations, the De Croo decision and the whims of Kabila and Co. However, It is not up to you or me to decide that a visa is valid or not.

Passenger
Posts: 7267
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines loses three of its 7 weekly frequencies to Kinshasa

Post by Passenger »

convair wrote: 17 May 2018, 22:30
Passenger wrote: 17 May 2018, 20:55 Wait! The consulate in Antwerp hasn't been closed by the Belgian government. It was a decision from the government of DR Congo, as part of their reply to the decision from Alexander De Croo, in January 2018, about Belgian development aid. De Croo decided to redirect it from DRC-government controlled bodies to DRC NGO's. Hence: there is no reason to expell Congolese diplomats.
Since the consulate was closed by the RDC government, it obviously can no longer deliver valid visas. Unless the 'diplomats' were relocated to Brussels embassy or to another consulate, there is no reason for them to stay in Belgium, hence the need to expell them.
The consulate isn't closed. Or was perhaps temporary closed for visitors. Or has reopened meanwhile:
http://www.consulat-rdcongo.be/
convair wrote: 17 May 2018, 22:30 Since the consulate was closed by the RDC government, it obviously can no longer deliver valid visas.
The visa were officially put in their passports, and they were thus valid. The proof is that they were allowed boarding.

The visa were valid but worthless, as visa can be revoked upon entry - which happened here. The reason that they were refused, doesn't make sense indeed. But once you've been there, you know that it's useless to try to understand them (a lesson I learned from Maurice V., Sabena's station manager at Kinshasa, a few decades ago).

Post Reply