Brussels Airlines in 2018

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wernerrav4
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by wernerrav4 » 14 May 2018, 23:13

What about Tuesday flights? I think it will be a chaos, don't want to be a passenger tomorrow either.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 14 May 2018, 23:43

wernerrav4 wrote:
14 May 2018, 23:13
What about Tuesday flights? I think it will be a chaos, don't want to be a passenger tomorrow either.
The long-haul flights normally returning to Brussels in the morning will indeed be cancelled: they didn't leave Brussels today. The short- and medium-haul flights are all scheduled.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 15 May 2018, 00:17

Excellent article from a man who knows what he is talking about (French only)!
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
http://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/g ... f079f86d35

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba » 15 May 2018, 09:54

Thanks Poiu for this article it's very clear this time.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 15 May 2018, 10:10

Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 00:17
Excellent article from a man who knows what he is talking about (French only)!
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
http://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/g ... f079f86d35
Title from that opinion article: “… Pas étonnant que les pilotes soient nerveux!...” Sure. Nobody disagrees that the pilots are nervous. But is their nervousness a valid reason to strike for two days, to cause 8m-10m damage and to kick away thousands of passengers? Some neutral specialists (see below) say no.

Thierry Lemmens, the author of above opinion in La Libre, was captain ànd trade union delegate when Sabena went bankrupt: he was spokesman for the Belgian Cockpit Association. A union delegate is, per definition, not neutral in a social dispute. And it’s quite obvious that an union delegate supports another union delegate when he makes a fatal error.

For neutral comments, I already referred to Etienne Schouppe (De Zevende Dag, VRT). Yesterday morning, De Ochtend (VRT radio) spoke to professor Van de Voorde, University of Antwerp, Faculty of Applied Economics – he’s usually presented in Flemish media as “Transporteconoom”. There is a link to the interview (5,5 minutes) on this page:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/14 ... onomie-br/

Van de Voorde: ...I can partially understand that the pilots are unhappy, and there is probably a problem work-private life. But that is inherent to the company’s activities: if you have feeder flights that need to arrive in the morning, the aircraft has to leave the evening before…

Van de Voorde: ...Last year, Brussels Airlines made 15 mio Eur profit. This strike causes 8-10 mio Euro loss. The Germans will not like those figures…

Van de Voorde: ...Lufthansa has said that Eurowings gets priority, but at the same time they agreed to give Brussels Airlines some kind of autonomy. This strike puts that promise at risk: the strike makes it easy for Lufthansa to withdraw their earlier promise… (VRT: "Als je dan staakt, riskeer je een alibi aan de Duitsers te geven om terug te komen op die eerder gedane belofte…”)

… Van de Voorde: ...I agree with Etienne Schouppe: why have the pilots not joined forces with the cabin crew? They face exactly the same problems…

Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 00:17
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
Thierry Lemmens in that opinion: "...Les stigmates de la saga Sabena-Swissair sont toujours présents..."
The bankruptcy of Sabena was not caused by the Swissair hold-up. The primary reason for the bankruptcy was that the airline business collapsed on 11th September 2001. Few weeks later, Sabena asked the trade court legal protection against creditors ("concordaat"), and the trade court agreed. But then the pilots went on strike, causing the collapse of the business rescue plan that the Board had given to the trade court. So the Board legally had to declare bankruptcy.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 15 May 2018, 15:58

Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 00:17
Excellent article from a man who knows what he is talking about (French only)!
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
http://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/g ... f079f86d35
VTM did some research about SN pilot's salaries and came to the conclusion a pilot for 3 years earns E 4640,- + extras and more than at BA. Also the linked opinion talks about net salaries, which is fairly irrelevant for the discussion about SN: that people in Belgium have to pay a ridiculous amount of taxes has everything to do with the Belgium government and nothing with SN.

See: https://www.hln.be/geld/economie/pilote ... ~a02a32a5/ (Dutch)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 15 May 2018, 16:21

Jetter wrote:
15 May 2018, 15:58
Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 00:17
Excellent article from a man who knows what he is talking about (French only)!
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
http://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/g ... f079f86d35
VTM did some research about SN pilot's salaries and came to the conclusion a pilot for 3 years earns E 4640,- + extras and more than at BA. Also the linked opinion talks about net salaries, which is fairly irrelevant for the discussion about SN: that people in Belgium have to pay a ridiculous amount of taxes has everything to do with the Belgium government and nothing with SN.

See: https://www.hln.be/geld/economie/pilote ... ~a02a32a5/ (Dutch)
You forgot to deduct the loan to cover the 100.000€+ training cost: 1000€/month during 15 years, to be paid from nett salary as initial training is NOT tax deductible.
You are correct about gross salaries though. But the pilot living in Belgium with 4600 gross= 2700 nett - 1000 loan= 1700€ in the pocket, far from exceptional is it for shift work.
Not to mention the loss of licence insurance, because if a pilot has a medical problem, he looses his job, no income, but he still has to pay back his training, another 200€/month, tax deductible this time.
Last edited by Poiu on 15 May 2018, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Ansett » 15 May 2018, 16:24

Comparing gross salaries is of no use. For every worker, be it an unqualified factory worker or a highly qualified worker (like a pilot), the only important thing is always the net salary. You don't buy the groceries and pay your bills with the gross salary. And I'm always cautious with what journalists write, especially when it comes to aviation ; how often haven't we read articles with mistakes in it. Anyway, I thought it was well known that salary and working conditions at SN and EW are among the lowest in the aviation sector in Europe.
EW had great difficulty to convince AB crews to work for EW under EW conditions.
Apart from comparing (gross) salaries, it would have been interesting for the newspaper to also compare working conditions. See why I don't trust most journalists. Job half done.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 15 May 2018, 16:27

Ansett wrote:
15 May 2018, 16:24
Comparing gross salaries is of no use. For every worker, be it an unqualified factory worker or a highly qualified worker (like a pilot), the only important thing is always the net salary. You don't buy the groceries and pay your bills with the gross salary. And I'm always cautious with what journalists write, especially when it comes to aviation ; how often haven't we read articles with mistakes in it. Anyway, I thought it was well known that salary and working conditions at SN and EW are among the lowest in the aviation sector in Europe.
EW had great difficulty to convince AB crews to work for EW under EW conditions.
Apart from comparing (gross) salaries, it would have been interesting for the newspaper to also compare working conditions. See why I don't trust most journalists. Job half done.
Ansett, taxes are different for each individual, two people earning the same gross have different take home because family, mortgage, council tax....
So comparing gross salaries is useless.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Ansett » 15 May 2018, 16:32

That's what I said. "Comparing gross salaries is of no use".

Btw, thanks for sharing a very interesting article with us.

shockcooling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by shockcooling » 15 May 2018, 16:58

The article in HLN is a perfect example of how to misuse minimal information to prove a point to the public. First of all it says it made a list of other companies salaries only to see 2 airlines...
Every pilot with Brussels Airlines knows the conditions at Air France, a first officer a320 based in Nice, working max 15 days a month, earns more than our TRE (usually the best paid pilots)!
At British Airways, gross salaries are higher and for sure not lower than at SN! OK, here you work hard, but more efficient, giving more time off at home, rather spending a day in CPH eg. Ad it's known to have a great rostering system with bids and swaps allowing you to plan your personal life more easy, as a pilot with BA you can switch aircraft type every 5 years, and they have a lot of different types 😊
Ofcourse the journalist could have done more research, but who does that nowadays, like many readers on this forum, they would just read and accept everything 😁

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 » 15 May 2018, 17:00

Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 16:21
Jetter wrote:
15 May 2018, 15:58
Poiu wrote:
15 May 2018, 00:17
Excellent article from a man who knows what he is talking about (French only)!
He also wrote some excellent articles about the Sabena bankruptcy. (He did research during 15 years.)
http://www.lalibre.be/debats/opinions/g ... f079f86d35
VTM did some research about SN pilot's salaries and came to the conclusion a pilot for 3 years earns E 4640,- + extras and more than at BA. Also the linked opinion talks about net salaries, which is fairly irrelevant for the discussion about SN: that people in Belgium have to pay a ridiculous amount of taxes has everything to do with the Belgium government and nothing with SN.

See: https://www.hln.be/geld/economie/pilote ... ~a02a32a5/ (Dutch)
But the pilot living in Belgium with 4600 gross= 2700 nett - 1000 loan= 1700€ in the pocket, far from exceptional is it for shift work.
Not to mention the loss of licence insurance, because if a pilot has a medical problem, he looses his job, no income, but he still has to pay back his training, another 200€/month, tax deductible this time.
That's about 1/3 less than what I earn as a cabin manager at BA ... I think your HLN "journalists" have it quite wrong Jetter :roll:

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair » 15 May 2018, 17:26

As I said earlier, I understand the pilots' strike.

However, some people here (and I suspect even some pilots) tend to distort the reality a bit too much:

-you should compare net salaries? : nonsense, even the unions know that;

-you need to deduct loan payment? : don't pilots in other companies have loans too?

-and if you want to be complete, you should also compare the cost of living with that of Belgium.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 15 May 2018, 19:26

Ansett wrote:
15 May 2018, 16:32
That's what I said. "Comparing gross salaries is of no use".

Sorry to disagree!
When two people do the same job in the same company, do you give them the same gross salary or the same take home pay? When comparing gross salaries SN is already in the second half of the league by the way, take home the difference is huge.
(For the individual self of course only the money after tax is important)

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers » 15 May 2018, 19:35

Comparing one net salary to one other is indeed useless. But a manager who wants to offer a competitive pay needs to be aware of the effects of tax and pseudo-tax (social security and such). It would be interesting to compare the total gross salaries of various airlines to their total net salaries, that would give some indication. But I do not think anybody is going to make that information available, neither airlines nor unions.

Certainly anybody wanting to employ staff under Belgian rules needs to be aware of the high fiscal and pseudo-fiscal pressure, so must be prepared to offer higher than average gross wages if people are to stay on board - otherwise sooner or later they will leave, as has been suggested. Would LH have overlooked this factor? I thought better of them.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Ansett » 15 May 2018, 19:46

So, how do we compare salaries ?

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 15 May 2018, 20:09

jan_olieslagers wrote:
15 May 2018, 19:35
Certainly anybody wanting to employ staff under Belgian rules needs to be aware of the high fiscal and pseudo-fiscal pressure, so must be prepared to offer higher than average gross wages if people are to stay on board - otherwise sooner or later they will leave, as has been suggested. Would LH have overlooked this factor? I thought better of them.
You can just as logical argue the reverse: people in Belgium should accept lower net-wages because they elected a government that chooses for high takes. Actually that makes much more sense, as employees have a vote and companies do not.

How is SN supposed to be able to compete in an international environment if they have to compensate for one of the highest taxes in the world?

Also the problem isn't that too many people leave, that would be SN's own responsibility. The problem is that the people that choose to stay strike.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers » 15 May 2018, 20:29

How is SN supposed to be able to compete in an international environment if they have to compensate for one of the highest taxes in the world?
That is a very valid point, but one that needs to be assessed before making investments or promises. Or why do think a country like Hungary does not have a "flag carrier" anymore?
Jetter wrote:
15 May 2018, 20:09
The problem is that the people that choose to stay strike.
Those who strike today will leave tomorrow, if nothing changes, or not enough. They can, after all, pilots are in demand worldwide.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 15 May 2018, 20:50

jan_olieslagers wrote:
15 May 2018, 20:29
Those who strike today will leave tomorrow, if nothing changes, or not enough. They can, after all, pilots are in demand worldwide.
If this is true there's no reason to strike': it's obvious that SN will raise salaries if that's needed to attract enough pilots.

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron » 15 May 2018, 22:02

jan_olieslagers wrote:
15 May 2018, 20:29
Jetter wrote:
15 May 2018, 20:09
The problem is that the people that choose to stay strike.
Those who strike today will leave tomorrow, if nothing changes, or not enough. They can, after all, pilots are in demand worldwide.
Add to that one of the reasons of strike is lack of crews. (and thus overfilled rosters)
Some have been leaving lately (especially contractors), looking for better wages and/or a more comfortable life. (quite often both at the same time)

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