Brussels Airlines in 2018

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nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

A conciliation meeting gave nothing on Monday.

http://www.lalibre.be/economie/libre-en ... 0ea6db2c83

In Le Soir : "Pilots do not want money but prospects." I guess it's about integration into the EW group.

More news ?

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by CTBke »

Passenger wrote: 07 May 2018, 21:48 I’m furious because you use passengers as hostage in your conflict with your employer. But more then that, I’m disappointed. I thaught that Brussels Airlines was an airline where such things wouldn't happen.
Well yeah that's the only way to make the management listen as a pilot/cabin crew/ground staff you don't have a lot of options really ... if teachers go on strike they close schools, when public transport goes on strike they do the same ..

Brussels Airlines is no different from any other airline .. even at BA/LH/AF they are strikes ... and for now it's important for the pilots to know how the integration will be done with LH/EW as there's still no direction given unlike OS and LX in the past so if you're dissapointed well ... welcome to 2018 where LH took over your Belgian airline and don't point out any clear direction
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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Conti764 »

Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 15:28
jan_olieslagers wrote: 06 May 2018, 14:54 I've not been there for many many years and do not feel like I'm missing anything.
Geen erger blinden dan zij die niet willen zien. What a pity: it's the best way to see and feel how passengers think about a strike. After all, aviation should be about passengers, me thinks.
Untill those very same passengers feel the need to go on strike, that is.

saratoga
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by saratoga »

Well. I fully support the Brussels airlines pilots. The only thing what management is doing is looking numbers, but they forget that behind those numbers are ppl like you and me. Ppl who sacrificed in the past in favour of the company. Management always think in terms of gaining, getting, but giving is not in their dictionary. At a certain point it is obvious that those squeezed lemons also want to get something rather than giving. Companies want just to MAXIMIZE their profit, not just A profit, not a moderate profit, even if the employees would be happy. It is with BA, Lidl and every other company like that.

It is very funny but also sad hearing statements like: " if you dont like it, go to the better paid companies." Life is not that simple. Especially if you are a bit older, have a familiy, kids going to a nearby school, a mortgage that needs to be paid etc. If you are single,it is a bit easier, but also not that easy. And no, even as a single, it is not fun to leave everything behind for a job. I speak from experience.

BA you have my support!!!

Darjeeling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Darjeeling »

saratoga wrote: 08 May 2018, 16:27 Well. I fully support the Brussels airlines pilots. The only thing what management is doing is looking numbers, but they forget that behind those numbers are ppl like you and me. Ppl who sacrificed in the past in favour of the company. Management always think in terms of gaining, getting, but giving is not in their dictionary. At a certain point it is obvious that those squeezed lemons also want to get something rather than giving. Companies want just to MAXIMIZE their profit, not just A profit, not a moderate profit, even if the employees would be happy. It is with BA, Lidl and every other company like that.

It is very funny but also sad hearing statements like: " if you dont like it, go to the better paid companies." Life is not that simple. Especially if you are a bit older, have a familiy, kids going to a nearby school, a mortgage that needs to be paid etc. If you are single,it is a bit easier, but also not that easy. And no, even as a single, it is not fun to leave everything behind for a job. I speak from experience.

BA you have my support!!!
I can't agree more with your statement. Pilots and CC have more than been rolled by the management. It's more than time for the payback. The pilot's market will dictate the future shape of SN, but management will have to give something else than a discount at Volvo dealership or a bottle of (bad) discounted Cava. SN is now poured into the low-cost arm of LH Group and SN management has to impose low-cost "way of doing". The time of the "braaf piloten" who are lucky to have a job in Belgium is now over.

By the way, today LH has ordered two more 777-300ER for Swiss, and rumor has it that LX will dedicate two extra A330 to new African destinations with LH prospecting itself for new African destinations to be opened once they get the 777X and some A330 are freed up.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

saratoga wrote: 08 May 2018, 16:27 It is very funny but also sad hearing statements like: " if you dont like it, go to the better paid companies." Life is not that simple. Especially if you are a bit older, have a familiy, kids going to a nearby school, a mortgage that needs to be paid etc. If you are single,it is a bit easier, but also not that easy. And no, even as a single, it is not fun to leave everything behind for a job. I speak from experience.
A good reason to keep the demands at a reasonnable level, i.e. that don't jeopardize the company's survival.

Other than that, everyone has the right to strike to try and improve his/her working conditions and salaries, but there are so many examples of employees who "sawed the branch on which they were sitting".

My position if I were involved (but I'm not, so I wouldn't even think about giving any advice to anyone on this matter) would be: be very firm but be reasonnable. But I know it's not easy!

[BTW, what are EW pilots salaries compared to SN's?]

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey »

convair wrote: 08 May 2018, 17:31 [BTW, what are EW pilots salaries compared to SN's?]
Gross salary is similar, although I don't know exactly about per diems or duty pay of Eurowings, I expect this to be similar as well. German taxes are very likely to be lower (I don't know the German system, but the Belgian system is one of the worst in the world), net salary of Eurowings pilots is probably going to be a bit higher SN pilots. The blame is not for SN, but the tax system of Belgium.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

Darjeeling wrote: 08 May 2018, 17:20 By the way, today LH has ordered two more 777-300ER for Swiss, and rumor has it that LX will dedicate two extra A330 to new African destinations with LH prospecting itself for new African destinations to be opened once they get the 777X and some A330 are freed up.
If the rumors were to be verified it would mean that the Belgians are being fooled by the Germans and I would understand that the pilots and the staff of SN demands the outlines of its future...if a future exists !

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Whoever has the money defines the rules. Always been like that. Never going to change.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

nordikcam wrote: 08 May 2018, 20:47
Darjeeling wrote: 08 May 2018, 17:20 By the way, today LH has ordered two more 777-300ER for Swiss, and rumor has it that LX will dedicate two extra A330 to new African destinations with LH prospecting itself for new African destinations to be opened once they get the 777X and some A330 are freed up.
If the rumors were to be verified it would mean that the Belgians are being fooled by the Germans and I would understand that the pilots and the staff of SN demands the outlines of its future...if a future exists !
We don't have to fool ourselves. Africa is one of the biggest potential growing markets in aviation in the coming years. SN doesn't have exclusivity on serving this continent and neither should it have, it would simply come at the cost of the competitive position of the LH Group on the continent. LH/LX are generally not strong in this market, but there is potential and they should explore it. SN doesn't have all the connections, is not serving the same home market(s), etc. and it would be foolish to think it ever would even if a wonder would happen.

The dissatisfaction of the pilots has little to do with the prospects in the Eurowings Group (except for the fact that they don't expect any improvement in their situation as EW is more or less the same). If it would be the case, striking would be a big f*ck you finger to EWG/LHG and that's not what SN needs now. Of all staff working for SN, pilots and cabin crew are by far the most assured of their jobs in the future development of EW Group which is aimed at growing flight ops also out of Belgium. If there would be someone being afraid of their jobs, it would be ground staff (both front-office which could face outsourcing and back-office which could see their jobs disappearing to Germany) - but instead of falling back in negativity they rather try to built their position by working hard and showing what makes them unique in the context of the group.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

Eurowings lost 200 million euros in Q1 (vs only 26 million at SN). But all the money for growth goes to EW: as EW CEO Dirks said, EW prioritises growth over profits. I am not surprised that pilots are afraid for the future as well. If there is no growth, there is no possibility to move from the right seat to the left seat, or from A320 to A330. I think that, even before wages, this is an important part of their demands.
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JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by JustPlanes »

There are so many examples in history of airlines that tried to grow too quickly and failed... Eurowings is going nuts because they are more concerned with stealing all the Air Berlin business than making a reasonable growth and offering a proper product... but what they're doing won't help them anyway... Ryanair just announced they're opening a base in DUS so they're obviously going after EW.
The future will be interesting but honestly LH is very stupid to put 100% into growing EW which could potentially fail and 0% into SN which has a lot of potential in BRU. But the fault lies with those in Belgium who agreed with this ridiculous deal!

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

JustPlanes wrote: 09 May 2018, 07:46 But the fault lies with those in Belgium who agreed with this ridiculous deal!
They had no choice. We would otherwise not be talking about SN anymore

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Sorry for @Passenger - and, even more! for the passengers! - but the strike is confirmed for Monday next:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/09 ... n-staking/
And for once, the VRT crew managed a very illustrative picture: an SN/BA plane in the foreground, but the background dominated by a LH B737. Says it all!

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 09 May 2018, 16:25 Sorry for @Passenger - and, even more! for the passengers! - but the strike is confirmed for Monday next:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/09 ... n-staking/
And for once, the VRT crew managed a very illustrative picture: an SN/BA plane in the foreground, but the background dominated by a LH B737. Says it all!
If member Passenger would be so kind to explain, in depth, the rights of the travelling public in case of a strike, after all the well-being of your fellow passengers is your first concern, isn’t it?

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CTBke
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Post by CTBke »

according to HLN, SN pilots will go on strike next Monday 14/05 and Wednesday 16/05
article in Dutch ; https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/p ... ~ab20db5b/
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convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

It would be interesting to know if SN mgt put something substantial on the table or if they flatly rejected all demands.

convair
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Re: Strikes affecting Belgian airports in 2018

Post by convair »

Positive gesture to postpone the strike till after the week-end.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Poiu wrote: 09 May 2018, 16:45 If member Passenger would be so kind to explain, in depth, the rights of the travelling public in case of a strike, after all the well-being of your fellow passengers is your first concern, isn’t it?
Sure, because quite often you are wrong there.

Passengers who have booked a ticket-only have to rely on the goodwill of the airline. No matter if it's booked direct or via a travel agent. The conventions from Warsaw and Montreal describe the responsability of the airline, whilst EU-Rule 261/2004 protects the passengers by clearing out possible waivers from airlines. It is general practice that airlines pay for all direct costs, related to the cancellation of the flight. Example: if airlines can't rebook you to your destination, you get a full refund but they won't refund the hotel you had booked there.

Passengers who have booked a travel package deal, including flight and hotels (example Thomas Cook): the touroperator must rebook them at the t/o's costs (because the Reiscontractenwet / Loi Contract de Voyages says so). If a rebooking is not possible and if another way of getting there is not possible without too much damage: refund of the whole trip. "Too much damage" is common sense - example: if one has booked a 8-day holiday resort trip and this now becomes a 7-day trip, the passenger has to accept this. When a 2-day citytrip to Barcelona becomes a one-day trip: full refund by the touroperator.

Touroperators are allowed to charge their admin costs that the strike causes, but usually they never do. No compensation for lost holiday days (ex a lost day at Hurghada), unless out of goodwill (= when the hotelier doens't charge the empty room).

When a third party is involved (example a business contract with the employer): 261/2004 remains in place, but the Belgian travel legislation not. Hence: all other disputes then flight-related are for common law.

Regarding the indemnity for cancelled flights (150-250-600) at a strike within an airline: open for discussion... Some courts (specially the Dutch ones) grant the indemnity, whilst other courts say a strike is extraordinary circumstance. One recent European Court verdict states: a strike is no extraordinary circumstance, hence 261/2004 applies in full, including the indemnity. I still have to ask a lawyer if that EU Court verdict is now jurisprudence, or only applicable for the passengers from that one case.

Please note: there will be a new legislation for bookings, signed as from 01st July 2018.

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sn26567
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Re: Strikes affecting Belgian airports in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

convair wrote: 09 May 2018, 17:14 Positive gesture to postpone the strike till after the week-end.
But if there is a conciliatory meeting on Monday 14th, they could at least wait until the end of the meeting, no?

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... -may-2018/
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