Brussels Airlines in 2018

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sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

lumumba wrote: 06 May 2018, 16:26 But strike is a right or do I mis something,you can also blame the management for the strike.
If the pilots go on strike that means there is no other solution I can not imagine they are going on striker (and in this case more than 80% are backing it)and shooting in there own foot if they had another way to do it!!!!!
I have the impression passenger that you want to remove the right to strike like in a fascist country?!?!
Read N-VA’s communications about strikes and you know How he feels about it.

Aviation is a much about the passengers as the people who make the world go round. Being employed in aviation demands big sacrifices on family and social life, Which should be rewarded one way or the other. Whether or not this strike is justified I dont know, as I dont have enough facts to make a judgement call.
Last edited by sean1982 on 06 May 2018, 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

lumumba wrote: 06 May 2018, 16:26 But strike is a right or do I mis something,you can also blame the management for the strike.
If the pilots go on strike that means there is no other solution I can not imagine they are going on striker (and in this case more than 80% are backing it)and shooting in there own foot if they had another way to do it!!!!!
I have the impression passenger that you want to remove the right to strike like in a fascist country?!?!
One may want to frame the right to strike without being a fascist citizen. It is necessary to control the "signifier," ( signifiant in french ) the meaning of this term. We may want to defend the passengers, taken hostage as they are at AF for over 12 days without being labeled a fascist. Measure!

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 06 May 2018, 16:36
lumumba wrote: 06 May 2018, 16:26 But strike is a right or do I mis something,you can also blame the management for the strike.
If the pilots go on strike that means there is no other solution I can not imagine they are going on striker (and in this case more than 80% are backing it)and shooting in there own foot if they had another way to do it!!!!!
I have the impression passenger that you want to remove the right to strike like in a fascist country?!?!
Read N-VA’s communications about strikes and you know How he feels about it.
You don't know me - and I regard that as a bonus for me.

It is the legal right from employees to go on strike to get more money in their pocket indeed. But then, those defending that right should also respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts.

Note of moderator: strong language edited

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

aviation should be about passengers
If you substitute "aviation" with "commercial air transport" I'll agree. (and still, there's commercial cargo traffic, too). But as I have stated repeatedly, I am not into commerical aviation - there is so much more.
respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts
No worries there. There is no law - and, to my lasting regret, there can never be - against rudeness.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 06 May 2018, 18:25, edited 1 time in total.

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron »

Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 17:34 It is the legal right from employees to go on strike to get more money in their pocket indeed. But then, those defending that right should also respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts.
Yet the pilots have been protesting their points for months. Remember the "stiptheidsacties" a few months ago? Those were done specifically because the time lost can be recovered during flight, meaning passengers are affected to a minimum while a message is (hopefully) sent to those it's intended for.
Calling people selfish and not knowing the entire story is odd to me. Pilots know damn well it's passengers paying their wages, not management.

Do you really believe they went from dead silence and no negotiations straight to a strike?
Are you THAT naive to believe they strike for money alone?
Guess you also believe the VTM story how we earn the same as pilots in neighboring countries, "but the taxes are just higher"? (Taxes sure are higher, at least they got that right)

Having no other means left that will get the point across to a management being focused on nothing but lowering cost, regardless of their staff's conditions (that's not just pilots, btw!) leaves some little choice.

And those passengers being affected will all indeed be angry at pilots for those few days' strike, not at a management systematically ignoring concerns from those they "manage". Shame...

Perhaps refrain from commenting on that which you obviously know nothing about. It's all too easy, and makes one look like an onion.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

One question to the pilots: in 2012, when the financial situation of Brussels Airlines was gloomy, you accepted longer working hours and/or salary cuts in order to avoid imminent bankruptcy. Have the pre-2012 working conditions been reinstated, or are you still working on the "crisis" conditions?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

sn26567 wrote: 06 May 2018, 18:51 One question to the pilots: in 2012, when the financial situation of Brussels Airlines was gloomy, you accepted longer working hours and/or salary cuts in order to avoid imminent bankruptcy. Have the pre-2012 working conditions been reinstated, or are you still working on the "crisis" conditions?
What do you think?

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron »

sn26567 wrote: 06 May 2018, 18:51 One question to the pilots: in 2012, when the financial situation of Brussels Airlines was gloomy, you accepted longer working hours and/or salary cuts in order to avoid imminent bankruptcy. Have the pre-2012 working conditions been reinstated, or are you still working on the "crisis" conditions?
Pilots still don't have the pay scales as they did before the cost saving measures.

This still puts SN pilots far below the pay of neighboring country's wages. (And no, that's not just legacy carriers I'm comparing to. Most low cost airlines pay their pilots far better than SN does.)

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Omychron wrote: 06 May 2018, 19:29 Pilots still don't have the pay scales as they did before the cost saving measures.
This still puts SN pilots far below the pay of neighboring country's wages. (And no, that's not just legacy carriers I'm comparing to. Most low cost airlines pay their pilots far better than SN does.)
Then leave Brussels Airlines, and go flying for one of those carriers who will gladly pay you so much more.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

It's sad the selfish behavior of the Sabena pilots is now also becoming visible at SN.
lumumba wrote: 06 May 2018, 16:26But strike is a right or do I mis something,you can also blame the management for the strike. If the pilots go on strike that means there is no other solution I can not imagine they are going on striker (and in this case more than 80% are backing it)and shooting in there own foot if they had another way to do it!!!!!
What you're arguing basically means that whoever strikes is right because you can always blame management and can always imagine there was no other way. It's a right to strike, but that doesn't mean it can't be immoral at the same time.
sn26567 wrote: 05 May 2018, 21:10Very few airlines are making a profit during the first quarter. And the losses of Air France are abysmal.
:o This is non-factual SN pilot propaganda. KLM, Iberia, British Airways, SWISS and Austrian all made a profit in Q1 i.e. Sure, Air France lost money, but that doesn't seem like an airline you want to compare yourself with. Although a comparison with their pilots makes sense as they're immoral and strike-prone as well. And look at the results: KL with pilots that don't strike does great while AF is losing money. AF pilots are lucky that KL does make money, but sadly for SN pilots I doubt that Lufthansa will cover continuing losses.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

Inquirer wrote: 05 May 2018, 22:40One can't but notice there's currently a worldwide trend of acute pilot shortage and like with any commodity, when demand outpaces the offer, the price goes up. Pilots at Brussels Airlines are said to have just a mediocre remuneration package and are probably very much aware what they can earn elsewhere (I wouldn't be surprised to read they are being headhunted by specialized companies even with some great offers), so combining the first element (that of a significantly better financial performance of their airline) with the second (the knowledge of being relatively poorly remunerated) drives them to the logical point of pushing for a better deal. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO?
Commodities don't strike. :idea: If it were true that SN needs to pay more to keep their pilots they didn't need to strike either, because SN would need to pay more to have enough pilots to fly their planes. Thus apparently SN salaries reflect at least a fair value that the supply and demand of pilots dedicates.

If SN pilots think the grass is so much greener at the other side let them leave. I'd be especially good if the former Sabena pilots do so, so that they can't drive the second Belgium flag-carrier to bankruptcy.

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron »

Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 20:44
Omychron wrote: 06 May 2018, 19:29 Pilots still don't have the pay scales as they did before the cost saving measures.
This still puts SN pilots far below the pay of neighboring country's wages. (And no, that's not just legacy carriers I'm comparing to. Most low cost airlines pay their pilots far better than SN does.)
Then leave Brussels Airlines, and go flying for one of those carriers who will gladly pay you so much more.
That's your solution? Leave the company to rot?
What happened to being proud of the national airline? :roll:
Good thing most at SN don't think this way. Already a huge shortage, with people working on off-days.
Maybe it isn't just the money they strike for? Imagine that...

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron »

Jetter wrote: 06 May 2018, 20:56And look at the results: KL with pilots that don't strike does great while AF is losing money. AF pilots are lucky that KL does make money, but sadly for SN pilots I doubt that Lufthansa will cover continuing losses.
Odd example, seeing as KL management gave in to pilot demands before they started their strike.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

Omychron wrote: 06 May 2018, 21:23
Jetter wrote: 06 May 2018, 20:56And look at the results: KL with pilots that don't strike does great while AF is losing money. AF pilots are lucky that KL does make money, but sadly for SN pilots I doubt that Lufthansa will cover continuing losses.
Odd example, seeing as KL management gave in to pilot demands before they started their strike.
Not an odd example at all. They negotiated and it is not at all like KL give in to all pilots' demands. Also you know what a strike at KL means? If there is one it last one hour and not many employees participate. At the same time over 1000 KL staff signed a petition against their striking colleagues. See:
- https://nos.nl/artikel/2193031-klm-heef ... oneel.html
- https://www.petities24.com/geen_staking_bij_klm

Where is the responsible SN staff calling on the pilots to abort the strike and behave morally?

Magiktrix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Magiktrix »

Divide and rule. First chapter in the management playbook. The second chapter is the blame game. The third one is to focus on salary only, while its much more than that. And so on. This scheme is seen in every airline.
Its like a game. You have training sessions for managers, and the same for unions. Each team with is own playbook. Just type "strike management" in google.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 17:34
You don't know me - and I regard that as a bonus for me.

It is the legal right from employees to go on strike to get more money in their pocket indeed. But then, those defending that right should also respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts.

Note of moderator: strong language edited
Likewise ... Extremely happy.

you only picked out the easy part of my post to react too btw (which was then moderated I see).
I didn't know your voice represented the whole of the Belgian (flemish?) tourism and travel trade.

To the people who think that pilots have no right to strike, unless you are one, you don't really know ....

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote: 06 May 2018, 23:24
Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 17:34 It is the legal right from employees to go on strike to get more money in their pocket indeed. But then, those defending that right should also respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts.
I didn't know your voice represented the whole of the Belgian (flemish?) tourism and travel trade.
Read my lips. I didn't say that I represent the tourism & travel trade. I'm just a small part of it - but with enough experience (just a few decades) to state that the tourism & travel trade regards this fortcoming (?) strike as a total disrespect towards passengers/tourists/business men-women. You cannot ground passengers on 11th May, and warmly wellcome in your aircraft on 12th May. You can't show your middle finger to them on 11th May, and wish then a pleasant stay at their destination on 12th May. No hypocrisy please.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote: 07 May 2018, 18:04
sean1982 wrote: 06 May 2018, 23:24
Passenger wrote: 06 May 2018, 17:34 It is the legal right from employees to go on strike to get more money in their pocket indeed. But then, those defending that right should also respect the right from others (like me and the rest of the tourism & travel trade) to call them egoïsts.
I didn't know your voice represented the whole of the Belgian (flemish?) tourism and travel trade.
Read my lips. I didn't say that I represent the tourism & travel trade. I'm just a small part of it - but with enough experience (just a few decades) to state that the tourism & travel trade regards this fortcoming (?) strike as a total disrespect towards passengers/tourists/business men-women. You cannot ground passengers on 11th May, and warmly wellcome in your aircraft on 12th May. You can't show your middle finger to them on 11th May, and wish then a pleasant stay at their destination on 12th May. No hypocrisy please.
I have one question for you passenger from when can they strike I mean how bad has it to be that they have the right to strike in your point of view?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

shockcooling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by shockcooling »

Hi passenger,

I think we understand your feelings towards pilots, 'het spat van het scherm', they are spoiled and have no right to improve their working conditions, sort of what I can read from you.

You're most probably self employed in the travel business, you're most likely going to feel this strike in some way in your own wallet as it concerns your clients too?
There is no hypocrisy, don't worry, the pilots transporting your clients towards all their destinations have been doing this for a long time and will continue to do so, no middle fingers ever given, no middle fingers will be given. As you describe it as total disrespect, the same feelings towards the pilots from mngmt, who leave no option after years! of trying to improve their working conditions. It was said to be 'take it or leave it'!
But for info, it's not solely money they're after, they just want better working conditions, but if they are unable to give that, it has to be compensated somehow differently, hence comes in the money story.
Working conditions; crew meals, career plan, holiday/day off allocation, time away from base, work pattern (early/late/night...), pension, future plans SN/EW,... -> you see, it's not more money ;)

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

shockcooling wrote: 07 May 2018, 19:15 You're most probably self employed in the travel business, you're most likely going to feel this strike in some way in your own wallet as it concerns your clients too?
No, I am not self employed in the travel business.
And no, I don’t feel the strike in my own wallet. Let’s say I’m more an active observer.
shockcooling wrote: 07 May 2018, 19:15 There is no hypocrisy, don't worry, the pilots transporting your clients towards all their destinations have been doing this for a long time and will continue to do so, no middle fingers ever given, no middle fingers will be given.
You don’t render a service for 364 days. You render a service for 365 days. On Thursday, you show your middle finger to the passengers, supposed to travel on that one day that have choosen to strike. It’s your legal right. But then, please stop with announcements like “we thank you for flying Brussels Airlines". Because you don't mean that.

I’m furious because you use passengers as hostage in your conflict with your employer. But more then that, I’m disappointed. I thaught that Brussels Airlines was an airline where such things wouldn't happen.

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