Brussels Airlines in 2018

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babolat-blast
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by babolat-blast » 10 Apr 2018, 20:25

That’s promising news :) I was afraid SN would get the EW business class (which is actually the current LH business class seat (bad 2-2-2 configuration and no all aisle access)) and LH, Swiss and Austrian the new LH 2020 business class seat. But it seems that SN will get it’s own design. While I am happy about that, it’s not very clever from a financial point of view...

lucas
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lucas » 10 Apr 2018, 21:26

Maybe a stupid question, but if they want to integrate SN in EW, why don't they give SN the same interior as EW? Now they wil have to change SN's interior again for the integration. Or is it a sign that they do not have plans for an integration into the low cost carrier?

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babolat-blast
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by babolat-blast » 10 Apr 2018, 21:37

@lucas: that’s exactly why it is promising. It seems the SN product will be different, at least for the long haul. I really hope they will get an all aisle access business class, which is more and more becoming the industry norm. If they get the current LH seats it would be a downgrade from their current business class seats.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Ansett » 10 Apr 2018, 22:18

I recently flew Oman Air's 787 in C class with full lie flat seats in a 2x2x2 configuration with a clever aisle access for the two window seats. I found this more pleasant than the 1x2x1 or even 1x1x1 configurations where seats are positioned at an angle where sometimes you are turning away from the windows. I would love SN to have opted for the Oman Air «solution».
The good news is of course that apparently they will have a different (I presume better) long haul C class than EW.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 10 Apr 2018, 22:24

Ansett wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 22:18
I recently flew Oman Air's 787 in C class with full lie flat seats in a 2x2x2 configuration with a clever aisle access for the two window seats. I found this more pleasant than the 1x2x1 or even 1x1x1 configurations where seats are positioned at an angle where sometimes you are turning away from the windows. I would love SN to have opted for the Oman Air «solution».
The good news is of course that apparently they will have a different (I presume better) long haul C class than EW.
Oman Air’s window seats are almost like a private suite. On top of that, food and drinks are amongst the best of what one can find in bizz class.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair » 10 Apr 2018, 22:31

babolat-blast wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 21:37
@lucas: that’s exactly why it is promising. It seems the SN product will be different, at least for the long haul. I really hope they will get an all aisle access business class, which is more and more becoming the industry norm. If they get the current LH seats it would be a downgrade from their current business class seats.
The current SN business class is not all aisle access. I guess you need a "spikes" layout for that. Good fo sleeping and access; little outside view however.

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babolat-blast
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by babolat-blast » 11 Apr 2018, 06:46

convair wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 22:31
babolat-blast wrote:
10 Apr 2018, 21:37
@lucas: that’s exactly why it is promising. It seems the SN product will be different, at least for the long haul. I really hope they will get an all aisle access business class, which is more and more becoming the industry norm. If they get the current LH seats it would be a downgrade from their current business class seats.
The current SN business class is not all aisle access. I guess you need a "spikes" layout for that. Good fo sleeping and access; little outside view however.
True, but a decent numbers of seats offer aisle access. That’s not the case in the LH seats. With SN there are some window seats with aisle access, LH doesn’t have any. That’s why I think the SN seats are superior than the current LH seats.
Last edited by babolat-blast on 11 Apr 2018, 06:48, edited 1 time in total.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Bralo20 » 11 Apr 2018, 07:55

I hope they finally introduce WiFi...

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 12 Apr 2018, 19:04

Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
André
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convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair » 12 Apr 2018, 21:46

sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 19:04
Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
To me, the right question is not how to integrate but does it make sense to integrate.

I don't want to appear too optimistic here and I remain very doubtful about SN's future within the LH group. However, the performance of EW might be the key: It seems they doing fine, at least in terms of growth; this could enable Carsten Spohr to look at the matter in a more serene and objective manner. He could realize that there is not much in common between SN and EW, and with the rest of the LH group for that matter.

1. SN is the only non-german (speaking) company; this might not be of utmost importance, but still is a factor when you're looking at a full integration;
2. EW is mostly leisure oriented, SN is (or was until the TC integration) more business (I have no figure to prove that but it seems obvious);
3. EW in truly point-to-point; SN has a substantial number of transfer pax, especially for its l/h flights;
4. SN needs to keep its l/h operations, otherwise Belgians (and others in the BRU catchment area) will look for alternate solutions, probably through LHR, CDG and AMS rather than FRA or DUS.

But if SN is itching CS to the point that he definitely needs to do something about it, the least bad option, imho, would be to integrate only SN's truly leisure flights (i.e. the ex-TC + the former charter operations) within his baby EW.
Or, best of all, leave it as it is and give it his full support in its development.

[BTW, the airline that is the most similar (or least different) to SN in the group, besides the german language of course, seems to be OS, imho.]

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 » 12 Apr 2018, 22:10

In my opinion, Brussels Airlines should be split in 2, keep the business and long haul market under the Brussels Airlines brand, (or any other stronger brand, because let's be honest, marketing wise the name Brussels Airlines is not very "strong", look at Air Belgium, they just started, and everybody knows their name!)

Then I would eventually paint a couple of A320 into Eurowings Belgium or whatsoever for the leisure purpose only, and why not base one of those A320 in LGG and OST to serve the busiest holiday destination (PMI, TFS, LPA, AGP, HER, NCE, etc...)

This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 12 Apr 2018, 22:53

crew1990 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:10
This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
André
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skumfiduse
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by skumfiduse » 12 Apr 2018, 23:16

sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:10
This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
How about Switzerland not being an EU-country + bilateral agreements between Switzerland/Edelweiss and their destinations' countries? Edelweiss flies to various long-haul destinations.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 » 13 Apr 2018, 01:49

sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:10
This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
Come on Austrian and Swiss suffer as well from this eurowings thing.

Swiss had to close the base of BSL so that Eurowings can take it over and Austrian has a lot of Eurowings aircraft based in Vienna, the base of Austrian Airlines , operating routes that Austrian could have operate itself.

Sofar, apart from the Stuttgart and Salzburg routes, Eurowings is not harming Brussels Airlines (for the moment)

But please ladies and gentleman, stop with this "Lufthansa prefer Swiss and Austrian Airlines, but doesn't like Brussels Airlines" propaganda.

Lufthansa invested a lot of money in SN for various project, New York, Washington, Toronto, Mumbai, Thomas Cook airlines. Swiss with those brand new 777 didn't even expanded their long haul network for quite a long time.

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by JustPlanes » 13 Apr 2018, 09:53

crew1990 wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 01:49
sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 22:10
This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
But please ladies and gentleman, stop with this "Lufthansa prefer Swiss and Austrian Airlines, but doesn't like Brussels Airlines" propaganda.

Lufthansa invested a lot of money in SN for various project, New York, Washington, Toronto, Mumbai, Thomas Cook airlines. Swiss with those brand new 777 didn't even expanded their long haul network for quite a long time.
Lufthansa has ordered 55 brand new airplanes for Swiss...
And Swiss has had a major long haul expansion first off with the addition of 10 777s with bigger capacity, by adding flights on many routes like Chicago, Miami etc... here in Boston they doubled from 1 to 2 flights a day... thats a huge increase in the number of seats!
And last, but not least, they transferred a number of A340s to Edelweiss, their code share partner, who are opening up many new long haul routes which Swiss sells as well.
So you can't compare what LH does for Swiss and SN... its night and day... or I should say day and night :)

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax » 13 Apr 2018, 22:11

JustPlanes wrote:
13 Apr 2018, 09:53
Lufthansa has ordered 55 brand new airplanes for Swiss...
And Swiss has had a major long haul expansion first off with the addition of 10 777s with bigger capacity, by adding flights on many routes like Chicago, Miami etc... here in Boston they doubled from 1 to 2 flights a day... thats a huge increase in the number of seats!
And last, but not least, they transferred a number of A340s to Edelweiss, their code share partner, who are opening up many new long haul routes which Swiss sells as well.
So you can't compare what LH does for Swiss and SN... its night and day... or I should say day and night :)
Just a few details that are also day and night difference between the situation of SN vs. LX and conviently forgotten:
- The take-over of Swiss started back in 2005 with full take-over in 2007, just some 10 years difference between the two looking at the moment from full take-over.
- Swiss as a company had a much stronger base from the very beginning. It needed much change and restructuring however. Yes they invested in fleet upgrades and harmonization (with the first big step being the large A333 order in 2007), but at the same time behind the screens Swiss already swallowed a huge amount of restructuring before becoming the shining star of the group that it's now.
- Building on that strong base, helped with restructuring and an iron hand from Germany (LH has done this already a decade ago in ZRH, later VIE followed and now BRU - this is definitely not unique to SN) they became the most consistent and largely profitable company in the group. In some years Swiss has been responsible on it's own for about half of all operational profits of the LH Group. Currently even OS is much more profitable than SN (adjusted EBIT of 94mio vs. 15mio in 2017), despite it's equally aged fleet and facing delays in their long haul fleet replacement decision due to a decision from 'higher powers'.
- Swiss has been taken over (100%) and integrated at a time when it still made perfect sense to further nurture the full legacy and premium character of Swiss - especially in a very high yield market like ZRH. SN has been a partly hybrid carrier ever since the merger with Virgin Express before the LH investment in 2008/2009 and since then stepped more and more away from a traditional legacy business model. I'm 100% sure that if Swiss would have still been an independent carrier as long as SN with the same terrible long term financial performance and in this context today of LHG boosting EW as a key pillar of their group strategy, they would face exactly the same situation as SN today.
- Etc.

Btw, do you think Swiss is happy with the fact that despite their incredible financial performance, LHG is still constantly pushing them to save costs, improve their results even further, pulling them completely out of the Basel market and threatening to take away their operations from GVA if they don't improve quickly (even resulting in a 'light introduction' of a buy-on-board based product on their GVA network - a huge step for Swiss). Or do you think they are at ease with the fact that LH Group consistently shows their nice infographic of their 3 pillar strategy with the Swiss tail indeed in the Network Airlines part, but at the same time the "Point-to-Point Airlines" with subtitle "#1 in home markets*" and having that * referring to "Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Belgium". Those are not just minor graphical matters, the aims of the Eurowings Group based strategy reach a lot farther than many think. Austrian already faces this with Eurowings Europe establishing itself rapidly on the Austrian market, while OS could have perfectly expanded themselves in many of those markets (because please stop being dramatic about "SN is only thinking about those stupid holiday destinations" - even Swiss is serving that type of routes, or outside the group British Airways is using very valuable slots at LGW and even LHR for a whole range of seasonal and year-round leisure routes - simply because these also have their role in the network of such airlines and even more so for a hybrid carrier like SN and they are not per definition low yield/low value).

SkyTourist
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by SkyTourist » 14 Apr 2018, 17:19

sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 19:04
Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
According to Stefan Kreuzpaintner – Lufthansa's vice-president sales for Europe, Middle East and Africa – in a Flightglobal interview (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-447544/), Eurowings will be the primary brand for European short-haul and German long-haul operations in the Eurowings Group (EW+SN). Only the African brand offering remains under review. Brussels Airlines' African brand must retain a "Belgian flavour" given the historical and cultural links between Belgium and many of the West African countries to which it operates: "Flying into [Burkina Faso's capital] Ouagadougou, for instance, I can hardly imagine flying with Eurowings – that is clear. (...) "So we have to take the best out of all worlds, not giving up the strength of Brussels Airlines in the African network, but by the same time finding some synergies of Eurowings as a brand."

Journalist John Walton believes that the installation of a newly to be designed three-class layout on the Airbus A330 aircraft, including premium economy, in conjunction with London-based design house JPA, is "a sign of confidence in the Brussels Airlines brand" and "doesn’t sound like an airline that’s going to be disappearing into an LCC any time soon" (https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2018/04/1 ... pa-design/).

Sounds like long haul to Africa (and US/Canada/India ex Belgium, if maintained ?) will get a 'Belgian touch' - whatever that may be -, but integration of the rest under the EW brand name.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam » 14 Apr 2018, 18:24

SkyTourist wrote:
14 Apr 2018, 17:19
sn26567 wrote:
12 Apr 2018, 19:04
Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
According to Stefan Kreuzpaintner – Lufthansa's vice-president sales for Europe, Middle East and Africa – in a Flightglobal interview (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-447544/), Eurowings will be the primary brand for European short-haul and German long-haul operations in the Eurowings Group (EW+SN). Only the African brand offering remains under review. Brussels Airlines' African brand must retain a "Belgian flavour" given the historical and cultural links between Belgium and many of the West African countries to which it operates: "Flying into [Burkina Faso's capital] Ouagadougou, for instance, I can hardly imagine flying with Eurowings – that is clear. (...) "So we have to take the best out of all worlds, not giving up the strength of Brussels Airlines in the African network, but by the same time finding some synergies of Eurowings as a brand."

Journalist John Walton believes that the installation of a newly to be designed three-class layout on the Airbus A330 aircraft, including premium economy, in conjunction with London-based design house JPA, is "a sign of confidence in the Brussels Airlines brand" and "doesn’t sound like an airline that’s going to be disappearing into an LCC any time soon" (https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2018/04/1 ... pa-design/).

Sounds like long haul to Africa (and US/Canada/India ex Belgium, if maintained ?) will get a 'Belgian touch' - whatever that may be -, but integration of the rest under the EW brand name.
This would mean that an FIH CPH flight would be operated by SN ( or a company whatever that may be with belgian touch ) on the FIH BRU section and the connection made on EW for BRU CPH ?

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boavida » 14 Apr 2018, 20:05

This is bad.

So Brussels Airlines will totally disappear in Europe. Only for African operations they *might* keep the brand: this doesn't make sense at all. Why keeping a brand for only a few routes and aircraft? This is absurd.

RIP Brussels Airlines. Killed by the Germans. Yeah, I know they 'saved' the airline years ago, but now they're coldly killing it off.

I will boycot EW as much as I can in my professional and personal life. Why would I fly an airline that killed 'our' flag carrier? I would even pay more to fly Ryanair or Easyjet (the other bland, meaningless, soulles brands without an identity) just so I don't have to fly bloody Eurowings, and I hope many Belgians with me.

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