Brussels Airlines in 2018

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

crew1990 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:10 This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by skumfiduse »

sn26567 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:10 This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
How about Switzerland not being an EU-country + bilateral agreements between Switzerland/Edelweiss and their destinations' countries? Edelweiss flies to various long-haul destinations.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 »

sn26567 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:10 This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
Come on Austrian and Swiss suffer as well from this eurowings thing.

Swiss had to close the base of BSL so that Eurowings can take it over and Austrian has a lot of Eurowings aircraft based in Vienna, the base of Austrian Airlines , operating routes that Austrian could have operate itself.

Sofar, apart from the Stuttgart and Salzburg routes, Eurowings is not harming Brussels Airlines (for the moment)

But please ladies and gentleman, stop with this "Lufthansa prefer Swiss and Austrian Airlines, but doesn't like Brussels Airlines" propaganda.

Lufthansa invested a lot of money in SN for various project, New York, Washington, Toronto, Mumbai, Thomas Cook airlines. Swiss with those brand new 777 didn't even expanded their long haul network for quite a long time.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by JustPlanes »

crew1990 wrote: 13 Apr 2018, 01:49
sn26567 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:53
crew1990 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 22:10 This way of working is the one of Swiss actually with their holiday brand Edelweiss
Now that you mention this, why has Edelweiss not yet been completely merged into Eurowings? Another proof that the Swiss and the Austrians are treated in a different way than the Belgians?
But please ladies and gentleman, stop with this "Lufthansa prefer Swiss and Austrian Airlines, but doesn't like Brussels Airlines" propaganda.

Lufthansa invested a lot of money in SN for various project, New York, Washington, Toronto, Mumbai, Thomas Cook airlines. Swiss with those brand new 777 didn't even expanded their long haul network for quite a long time.
Lufthansa has ordered 55 brand new airplanes for Swiss...
And Swiss has had a major long haul expansion first off with the addition of 10 777s with bigger capacity, by adding flights on many routes like Chicago, Miami etc... here in Boston they doubled from 1 to 2 flights a day... thats a huge increase in the number of seats!
And last, but not least, they transferred a number of A340s to Edelweiss, their code share partner, who are opening up many new long haul routes which Swiss sells as well.
So you can't compare what LH does for Swiss and SN... its night and day... or I should say day and night :)

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

JustPlanes wrote: 13 Apr 2018, 09:53 Lufthansa has ordered 55 brand new airplanes for Swiss...
And Swiss has had a major long haul expansion first off with the addition of 10 777s with bigger capacity, by adding flights on many routes like Chicago, Miami etc... here in Boston they doubled from 1 to 2 flights a day... thats a huge increase in the number of seats!
And last, but not least, they transferred a number of A340s to Edelweiss, their code share partner, who are opening up many new long haul routes which Swiss sells as well.
So you can't compare what LH does for Swiss and SN... its night and day... or I should say day and night :)
Just a few details that are also day and night difference between the situation of SN vs. LX and conviently forgotten:
- The take-over of Swiss started back in 2005 with full take-over in 2007, just some 10 years difference between the two looking at the moment from full take-over.
- Swiss as a company had a much stronger base from the very beginning. It needed much change and restructuring however. Yes they invested in fleet upgrades and harmonization (with the first big step being the large A333 order in 2007), but at the same time behind the screens Swiss already swallowed a huge amount of restructuring before becoming the shining star of the group that it's now.
- Building on that strong base, helped with restructuring and an iron hand from Germany (LH has done this already a decade ago in ZRH, later VIE followed and now BRU - this is definitely not unique to SN) they became the most consistent and largely profitable company in the group. In some years Swiss has been responsible on it's own for about half of all operational profits of the LH Group. Currently even OS is much more profitable than SN (adjusted EBIT of 94mio vs. 15mio in 2017), despite it's equally aged fleet and facing delays in their long haul fleet replacement decision due to a decision from 'higher powers'.
- Swiss has been taken over (100%) and integrated at a time when it still made perfect sense to further nurture the full legacy and premium character of Swiss - especially in a very high yield market like ZRH. SN has been a partly hybrid carrier ever since the merger with Virgin Express before the LH investment in 2008/2009 and since then stepped more and more away from a traditional legacy business model. I'm 100% sure that if Swiss would have still been an independent carrier as long as SN with the same terrible long term financial performance and in this context today of LHG boosting EW as a key pillar of their group strategy, they would face exactly the same situation as SN today.
- Etc.

Btw, do you think Swiss is happy with the fact that despite their incredible financial performance, LHG is still constantly pushing them to save costs, improve their results even further, pulling them completely out of the Basel market and threatening to take away their operations from GVA if they don't improve quickly (even resulting in a 'light introduction' of a buy-on-board based product on their GVA network - a huge step for Swiss). Or do you think they are at ease with the fact that LH Group consistently shows their nice infographic of their 3 pillar strategy with the Swiss tail indeed in the Network Airlines part, but at the same time the "Point-to-Point Airlines" with subtitle "#1 in home markets*" and having that * referring to "Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Belgium". Those are not just minor graphical matters, the aims of the Eurowings Group based strategy reach a lot farther than many think. Austrian already faces this with Eurowings Europe establishing itself rapidly on the Austrian market, while OS could have perfectly expanded themselves in many of those markets (because please stop being dramatic about "SN is only thinking about those stupid holiday destinations" - even Swiss is serving that type of routes, or outside the group British Airways is using very valuable slots at LGW and even LHR for a whole range of seasonal and year-round leisure routes - simply because these also have their role in the network of such airlines and even more so for a hybrid carrier like SN and they are not per definition low yield/low value).

SkyTourist
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by SkyTourist »

sn26567 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 19:04 Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
According to Stefan Kreuzpaintner – Lufthansa's vice-president sales for Europe, Middle East and Africa – in a Flightglobal interview (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-447544/), Eurowings will be the primary brand for European short-haul and German long-haul operations in the Eurowings Group (EW+SN). Only the African brand offering remains under review. Brussels Airlines' African brand must retain a "Belgian flavour" given the historical and cultural links between Belgium and many of the West African countries to which it operates: "Flying into [Burkina Faso's capital] Ouagadougou, for instance, I can hardly imagine flying with Eurowings – that is clear. (...) "So we have to take the best out of all worlds, not giving up the strength of Brussels Airlines in the African network, but by the same time finding some synergies of Eurowings as a brand."

Journalist John Walton believes that the installation of a newly to be designed three-class layout on the Airbus A330 aircraft, including premium economy, in conjunction with London-based design house JPA, is "a sign of confidence in the Brussels Airlines brand" and "doesn’t sound like an airline that’s going to be disappearing into an LCC any time soon" (https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2018/04/1 ... pa-design/).

Sounds like long haul to Africa (and US/Canada/India ex Belgium, if maintained ?) will get a 'Belgian touch' - whatever that may be -, but integration of the rest under the EW brand name.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

SkyTourist wrote: 14 Apr 2018, 17:19
sn26567 wrote: 12 Apr 2018, 19:04 Lufthansa Group will complete a review of options by end 2018 for integrating Brussels Airlines and Eurowings, with a focus on how the operations and commercial strategies of the two airlines could be combined.
According to Stefan Kreuzpaintner – Lufthansa's vice-president sales for Europe, Middle East and Africa – in a Flightglobal interview (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ew-447544/), Eurowings will be the primary brand for European short-haul and German long-haul operations in the Eurowings Group (EW+SN). Only the African brand offering remains under review. Brussels Airlines' African brand must retain a "Belgian flavour" given the historical and cultural links between Belgium and many of the West African countries to which it operates: "Flying into [Burkina Faso's capital] Ouagadougou, for instance, I can hardly imagine flying with Eurowings – that is clear. (...) "So we have to take the best out of all worlds, not giving up the strength of Brussels Airlines in the African network, but by the same time finding some synergies of Eurowings as a brand."

Journalist John Walton believes that the installation of a newly to be designed three-class layout on the Airbus A330 aircraft, including premium economy, in conjunction with London-based design house JPA, is "a sign of confidence in the Brussels Airlines brand" and "doesn’t sound like an airline that’s going to be disappearing into an LCC any time soon" (https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2018/04/1 ... pa-design/).

Sounds like long haul to Africa (and US/Canada/India ex Belgium, if maintained ?) will get a 'Belgian touch' - whatever that may be -, but integration of the rest under the EW brand name.
This would mean that an FIH CPH flight would be operated by SN ( or a company whatever that may be with belgian touch ) on the FIH BRU section and the connection made on EW for BRU CPH ?

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boavida »

This is bad.

So Brussels Airlines will totally disappear in Europe. Only for African operations they *might* keep the brand: this doesn't make sense at all. Why keeping a brand for only a few routes and aircraft? This is absurd.

RIP Brussels Airlines. Killed by the Germans. Yeah, I know they 'saved' the airline years ago, but now they're coldly killing it off.

I will boycot EW as much as I can in my professional and personal life. Why would I fly an airline that killed 'our' flag carrier? I would even pay more to fly Ryanair or Easyjet (the other bland, meaningless, soulles brands without an identity) just so I don't have to fly bloody Eurowings, and I hope many Belgians with me.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

Boavida wrote: 14 Apr 2018, 20:05 This is bad.

So Brussels Airlines will totally disappear in Europe. Only for African operations they *might* keep the brand: this doesn't make sense at all. Why keeping a brand for only a few routes and aircraft? This is absurd.

RIP Brussels Airlines. Killed by the Germans. Yeah, I know they 'saved' the airline years ago, but now they're coldly killing it off.

I will boycot EW as much as I can in my professional and personal life. Why would I fly an airline that killed 'our' flag carrier? I would even pay more to fly Ryanair or Easyjet (the other bland, meaningless, soulles brands without an identity) just so I don't have to fly bloody Eurowings, and I hope many Belgians with me.
If it happens I do the same....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote: 14 Apr 2018, 20:05 I will boycot EW as much as I can in my professional and personal life. Why would I fly an airline that killed 'our' flag carrier? I would even pay more to fly Ryanair or Easyjet (the other bland, meaningless, soulles brands without an identity) just so I don't have to fly bloody Eurowings, and I hope many Belgians with me.
lumumba wrote: 14 Apr 2018, 20:11 If it happens I do the same....
:lol:

oscartango
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by oscartango »

Hi, new to the forum! :D
Actually I don’t think the Brussels Airlines brand will strongly change in the next 2-3 years. First of all due the well known name in Africa: (Sn) Brussels Airlines and due to the strong brand in its homemarket.

However I do think changing Brussels Airlines in a more “Eurowings-group-name” would be useful (maybe Belgianwings), but I don’t think the Brussels Airlines entity will be completly renamed to Eurowings, simply due to the fact nobody really feels “European”, and nobody would prefer flying Eurowings above Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling. But Belgianwings can have a certain preference for Belgian customers and a clear link with the Eurowings group.

I guess the Eurowings brand is only interesting to show separation from Luftansa in the German market and maybe a few holiday destinations in Switzerland/Austria.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

oscartango wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 05:18 Hi, new to the forum! :D
Actually I don’t think the Brussels Airlines brand will strongly change in the next 2-3 years. First of all due the well known name in Africa: (Sn) Brussels Airlines and due to the strong brand in its homemarket.

However I do think changing Brussels Airlines in a more “Eurowings-group-name” would be useful (maybe Belgianwings), but I don’t think the Brussels Airlines entity will be completly renamed to Eurowings, simply due to the fact nobody really feels “European”, and nobody would prefer flying Eurowings above Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling. But Belgianwings can have a certain preference for Belgian customers and a clear link with the Eurowings group.

I guess the Eurowings brand is only interesting to show separation from Luftansa in the German market and maybe a few holiday destinations in Switzerland/Austria.
Hi oscartango... and welcome to the forum !

I do agree with you regarding a possible rebranding of brussels airlines into belgianwings or eurobelgianwings... However, Stefan Kreuzpainter’s interview clearly stages that the brussels airlines brand will diseappear to be replaces by Eurowings on medium haul flights!!!

This is clearly a negation of the belgian identity and an insult towards belgian aviation pioneers, workers, lovers and finally customers.

I am french guy from Paris but I do fly with SN (call it Sabena, SN brussels, Brussels Airlines) because of this unique belgian touch and identity that I really love (btw, I love Belgium, belgians... maybe because I have some family roots from Mons, Brussels and Kortrijk). Belgian people can be proud of it, defend it, protect it! Don’t let that happen, fight for the belgian identity / flag and keep it flying all over Europe!

If that happens, I won’t fly Eurowings for sure but will also avoid all LH Group airlines at all costs !

... and I am sure about a very negative market reaction !
Last edited by brusselsairlinesfan on 15 Apr 2018, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

And btw, congrats to SN for March figures... and much respect to M. Bernard Gustin who left at the end of the month (he wrote some nice pages of SN, together with its dedicated staff... a nice personality!).

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

oscartango wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 05:18 Hi, new to the forum! :D
Welcome to Aviation24.be, oscartango. And thanks for your first positive post.
André
ex Sabena #26567

oscartango
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by oscartango »

brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 10:07 I do agree with you regarding a possible rebranding of brussels airlines into belgianwings or eurobelgianwings... However, Stefan Kreuzpainter’s interview clearly stages that the brussels airlines brand will diseappear to be replaces by Eurowings on medium haul flights!!!
He's actually saying: "I would say there must be a different commercial approach between short-haul and long-haul [networks]". So it looks more like a personal opinion/lobbying work from him.
What are actually the benefits (for Lufthansa and EW) of changing the Brussels Airlines medium haul brand to Eurowings (and not Belgianwings), cause it's only a name?

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

oscartango wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 13:50
brusselsairlinesfan wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 10:07 I do agree with you regarding a possible rebranding of brussels airlines into belgianwings or eurobelgianwings... However, Stefan Kreuzpainter’s interview clearly stages that the brussels airlines brand will diseappear to be replaces by Eurowings on medium haul flights!!!
He's actually saying: "I would say there must be a different commercial approach between short-haul and long-haul [networks]". So it looks more like a personal opinion/lobbying work from him.
What are actually the benefits (for Lufthansa and EW) of changing the Brussels Airlines medium haul brand to Eurowings (and not Belgianwings), cause it's only a name?
This is not about a name change, but about cost saving!
Beside a handful of Brussels Airlines fans on this forum, nobody cares about the name itself. Unions and staff are concerned about jobs and salaries, whilst passengers on short haul mainly care about low fares.
If the Germans would integrate SN into LH mainline, with mainline working conditions, none of the unions or employees would complain.
Eurowings has amongst the worst T&Cs for airline staff you can find in Europe, that is the reason of the integration. Axe a lot of the office staff and employ future crew on lower terms, if the unions accept this, there will be no need for a name change.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 »

Poiu wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 15:55 If the Germans would integrate SN into LH mainline, with mainline working conditions, none of the unions or employees would complain.
Of course there would be complain, we have some good working condition at Brussels Airlines, not perfect, it can always be better of coure but I think most of us are very happy with our condition. The proof is that strike by SN employee is quite rare. While in Lufti you almost have a strike once a year minimum. I really don't believe than their working condition a better.

Just a few example that I already saw, in Tel Aviv, we have a full breakfast before departing, KLM and Air France too, while Swiss and Lufthansa crew nothing.

In Europe sector if we fly a mission (Consecutive days with layover at outstation), in SN we can't have more than 3 days in a row while the crew from Lufthansa can fly a full week without coming back home.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by TLspotting »

Hello,
The OO-TCV seems to be now engined with IAE with CFM (FR24),the extension changed from 214 to 231.
Can someone from Beeline confirm ?
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/oo-tcv
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey »

It’s a flight radar error. It’s still equipped with CFM’s.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

crew1990 wrote: 15 Apr 2018, 17:58
Of course there would be complain, we have some good working condition at Brussels Airlines, not perfect, it can always be better of coure but I think most of us are very happy with our condition. The proof is that strike by SN employee is quite rare. While in Lufti you almost have a strike once a year minimum. I really don't believe than their working condition a better.

Just a few example that I already saw, in Tel Aviv, we have a full breakfast before departing, KLM and Air France too, while Swiss and Lufthansa crew nothing.

In Europe sector if we fly a mission (Consecutive days with layover at outstation), in SN we can't have more than 3 days in a row while the crew from Lufthansa can fly a full week without coming back home.
Lufty mainline salaries are about double of what you earn, and they work less days a month.
Still complain about a breakfast and a couple of nights away from home, which attract extra salary btw?
If you give a bar of gold to some people they will complain it’s too heavy...

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