Brussels Airlines in 2018

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by CTBke » 11 May 2018, 17:46

Poiu wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:45
sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:41
sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2018, 11:07
60,000 passengers to rebook or reimburse. Even if it takes only 5 minutes per passenger, that would require 5,000 hours of work or 625 agents working 8 hours per day. Brussels Airlines cannot possibly handle that!
The call centre is overwhelmed, despite the fact that it has been reinforced. It often takes half an hour to find a solution that suits the passenger.
A simple ‘change your booking” tool on the website would solve the problem, but as with pilots and aircraft, Brussels Airlines has no money to pay for necessary people and equipment...
and not to forget not everyone books their tickets at the airline...
Citybird
The flying dream

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 11 May 2018, 18:07

Poiu wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:45
sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:41
The call centre is overwhelmed, despite the fact that it has been reinforced. It often takes half an hour to find a solution that suits the passenger.
A simple ‘change your booking” tool on the website would solve the problem, but as with pilots and aircraft, Brussels Airlines has no money to pay for necessary people and equipment...
Well Poiu, you have never ever seen an airline reservation computer from the front, have you? "Change you booking at home" would only help for the easiest bookings: passengers only changing to another date, but also on Brussels Airlines. Those are the 5-minutes-calls. The vaste majority of changes now are rebookings: same dates, same routing, more or less same the time lapse, but different airline. I'm looking forward to see you do that from home: there is availability on KLM in C-class, but not in Y. You won't be able to book that, but the resa agents probably can.

No money for people and equipment? On Wednesday evening, all five call centres were put on full power.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 11 May 2018, 23:34

I am wondering: why did the unions decide to strike two non-consecutive days? From the moment they decided to strike two days, and not one, it seems to me that two consecutive days would be more visible, but also cause fewer disturbances.

By striking a Monday and a Wednesday, it is clear that the effects of the strike would also extend on Tuesday and Thursday, with planes being absent for returning to BRU from foreign destinations.

Any union guy to explain?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 11 May 2018, 23:39

sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2018, 23:34
I am wondering: why did the unions decide to strike two non-consecutive days? From the moment they decided to strike two days, and not one, it seems to me that two consecutive days would be more visible, but also cause fewer disturbances.

By striking a Monday and a Wednesday, it is clear that the effects of the strike would also extend on Tuesday and Thursday, with planes being absent for returning to BRU from foreign destinations.

Any union guy to explain?
Maximum disturbance is probably what they were aiming for. Why even strike 2 days? Regardless of the question whether it's appropriate to strike, a first strike lasting a few hours would show much more consideration towards passengers and non-flying colleagues.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 11 May 2018, 23:47

737MAX wrote:
11 May 2018, 13:03
Btw, LH really have no lessons to give about strikes. German pilots have been much more on strike in the last years than at SN. This strike will be forgotten by the general public days after anyway (never noticed that people still book on Air France? :roll: ).
Reality is that LH and AF are the main airlines of their respective groups, and thus guaranteed to continue to exist as long as the group exists, both with a big home-market. No such guarantees or home-market for SN.
These "onions" know how bad the situation is for pilots in Belgium. Belgium is the main problem. Not SN, not LH, but Belgium. Everything is so expensive here that nobody, including LH, doesn't want to invest into Belgian aviation. The cost for a pilot is higher than anywhere else, and the net income they have is the lowest you can find on the market. Would you be happy with that? (don't say yes just because you think being a cockpit is still a dream job).
All true, but you can't blame that on SN, neither is it fair to expect SN to compensate for this. This can only be solved in the voting booth and as long as Belgium keeps voting for 'sossen en tsjeven' it won't change. Every country has the government it deserves.
Don't believe they are asking for the incredible (unlike Air France pilots). Their demands are fair, justified, and although I've never been pro-strike; kudos to them for doing it this time. They don't have a single reason to sit and behave. Not a single one.
They do. They are asking wage increases while SN is already losing money. Contrary to pilot-propaganda most EU airlines made a profit in Q1.

Flanker3
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Flanker3 » 12 May 2018, 00:50

SN no longer is a government-supported airline.
The unions at SN were very pro-government. Work conditions are pretty poor, SN pays the worst wages of the industry and get away with it without strikes. Only when senior pilots were unhappy the unions moved.
If these were independent unions, SN would be overwhelmed by strikes. Gustin was good at communications, that you can't take away from him.

Unfortunately for LH, SN never had a profitable structure.
Despite cheap fuel, they were unable to make a profit last year because SN fell out of favor with many institutions.

Looking at how several regional institutions invested in Air Belgium, it looks like Belgium is set on giving Air Belgium the status of flag carrier if the Germans even think about touching the African network.

By becoming a 100% LH subsidiary and firing the Belgian management, I think that SN has lost its Belgian identity. At least, we tend to talk more about Air Belgium these days than SN.

SN's pilots don't earn nearly as much as their colleagues in the UK or many other countries. Many guys have been in the right seat for over a decade with no opportunity to promote.
A job at SN used to be glamorous, but who wants to work for a LH subsidiary about to be LCC'ed?

If the Germans got their way until now, the Belgian staff might as well get their way too.
Good luck to the pilots.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter » 12 May 2018, 01:27

Flanker3 wrote:
12 May 2018, 00:50
SN pays the worst wages of the industry
I keep hearing this by the pilot-supporters. Does SN really pay a pilot less than Ryanair? Also could someone explain to me how it's possible that SN pays the lowest wages, operates at one of the cheapest large airports of Europe and yet at a time when fuel is cheap hardly made a profit 2017 and lost money in Q1 while KL, LH, and BA i.e. are making record profits?

It must be managed horribly for years for this to be true. :?

pilot_gent
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by pilot_gent » 12 May 2018, 03:28

Jetter wrote:
12 May 2018, 01:27
Flanker3 wrote:
12 May 2018, 00:50
SN pays the worst wages of the industry
I keep hearing this by the pilot-supporters. Does SN really pay a pilot less than Ryanair?
Base salary is at least 40% more at RYR, depending on base.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by b720 » 12 May 2018, 08:29

Jetter wrote:
12 May 2018, 01:27
Flanker3 wrote:
12 May 2018, 00:50
SN pays the worst wages of the industry
I keep hearing this by the pilot-supporters. Does SN really pay a pilot less than Ryanair? Also could someone explain to me how it's possible that SN pays the lowest wages, operates at one of the cheapest large airports of Europe and yet at a time when fuel is cheap hardly made a profit 2017 and lost money in Q1 while KL, LH, and BA i.e. are making record profits?

It must be managed horribly for years for this to be true. :?
Social security contributions and taxes highest in the world! It is very expensive to hire people in Belgium. The difference between what the employer pays and what the employee ultimately receives is huge!! Maybe they should open SN Ireland and base their cabin and cockpit crew over there! Thy will save millions and millions ..

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron » 12 May 2018, 09:04

Jetter wrote:
12 May 2018, 01:27
Also could someone explain to me how it's possible that SN pays the lowest wages, operates at one of the cheapest large airports of Europe and yet at a time when fuel is cheap hardly made a profit 2017 and lost money in Q1 while KL, LH, and BA i.e. are making record profits?

It must be managed horribly for years for this to be true. :?
A question pilots have been asking for a while now...
Funny how so many supported Gustin when he was replaced, while his performance of last year gave the Germans no choice...

On the strike subject, pilots feel like they've given too much, without results.
See how you like it when you lose part of your wage, only to see it squandered.

And again, wages is only a part of the demanded package, yet it's the only item discussed by many.
I want to see my family again once in a while! Apparently, that makes us selfish. :shock:
I'd like to know what will happen when I retire. Do I seriously need to find a new career to bridge the 2-year gap between loss of license and official retirement age?

There's plenty of other points that have been brought up again and again. Most of these issues have been on the table for years, some of them from before the previous strike...

Omychron
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron » 12 May 2018, 09:06

b720 wrote:
12 May 2018, 08:29
Jetter wrote:
12 May 2018, 01:27
Flanker3 wrote:
12 May 2018, 00:50
SN pays the worst wages of the industry
I keep hearing this by the pilot-supporters. Does SN really pay a pilot less than Ryanair? Also could someone explain to me how it's possible that SN pays the lowest wages, operates at one of the cheapest large airports of Europe and yet at a time when fuel is cheap hardly made a profit 2017 and lost money in Q1 while KL, LH, and BA i.e. are making record profits?

It must be managed horribly for years for this to be true. :?
Social security contributions and taxes highest in the world! It is very expensive to hire people in Belgium. The difference between what the employer pays and what the employee ultimately receives is huge!! Maybe they should open SN Ireland and base their cabin and cockpit crew over there! Thy will save millions and millions ..
Gross salary of SN pilots is also lower than that of aforementioned airlines.

Most SN pilots would be quite happy earning the same gross. I don't mind earning a lower net wage if it means I can work out of my own country. But there are limits...

737MAX
Posts: 369
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by 737MAX » 12 May 2018, 09:08

Jetter wrote:
12 May 2018, 01:27
Flanker3 wrote:
12 May 2018, 00:50
SN pays the worst wages of the industry
I keep hearing this by the pilot-supporters. Does SN really pay a pilot less than Ryanair? Also could someone explain to me how it's possible that SN pays the lowest wages, operates at one of the cheapest large airports of Europe and yet at a time when fuel is cheap hardly made a profit 2017 and lost money in Q1 while KL, LH, and BA i.e. are making record profits?

It must be managed horribly for years for this to be true. :?
See. You don’t know. But still you keep on saying the same thing.

Answering you is a waste of time. Being incapable of gathering information BEFORE judging/posting is another form of...

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 12 May 2018, 09:51

According to L'Echo and De Tijd, 200 jobs will be made redundant at Brussels Airlines and 50 at Eurowings as a result of the integration, mostly administrative jobs. The people involved will have the opportuenity to look for another job on an internal platform.

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... -airlines/
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu » 12 May 2018, 10:16

Passenger wrote:
11 May 2018, 18:07
Poiu wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:45
sn26567 wrote:
11 May 2018, 17:41
The call centre is overwhelmed, despite the fact that it has been reinforced. It often takes half an hour to find a solution that suits the passenger.
A simple ‘change your booking” tool on the website would solve the problem, but as with pilots and aircraft, Brussels Airlines has no money to pay for necessary people and equipment...
Well Poiu, you have never ever seen an airline reservation computer from the front, have you? "Change you booking at home" would only help for the easiest bookings: passengers only changing to another date, but also on Brussels Airlines. Those are the 5-minutes-calls. The vaste majority of changes now are rebookings: same dates, same routing, more or less same the time lapse, but different airline. I'm looking forward to see you do that from home: there is availability on KLM in C-class, but not in Y. You won't be able to book that, but the resa agents probably can.

No money for people and equipment? On Wednesday evening, all five call centres were put on full power.
Indeed no, I have never seen a reservation computer from the front, but I recently had an easyJet flight cancelled due ATC strike, got an email with a link which let me rebook and book a hotel room free of charge. If all those 5 minute calls are automated the callcenter has more time to help more complicated cases.
But as you say, who am I...

Sai
Posts: 198
Joined: 31 Mar 2012, 22:35

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Sai » 12 May 2018, 11:13

sn26567 wrote:
12 May 2018, 09:51
According to L'Echo and De Tijd, 200 jobs will be made redundant at Brussels Airlines and 50 at Eurowings as a result of the integration, mostly administrative jobs. The people involved will have the opportunity to look for another job on an internal platform.
Quote from article on hln.be:
"According to De Tijd, it was initially intended to distribute the job loss equally between the two locations, but those plans have changed. Brussels Airlines now has to bear three quarters of the job loss." :?

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam » 12 May 2018, 12:53

Who says the truth finally? The Echo or De Tid who says that we will remove 200 posts in Brussels and 50 in Cologne or SN management that says it's completely wrong ... anyone knows?

http://www.lavenir.net/cnt/dmf20180512_01169903

Passenger
Posts: 6584
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 12 May 2018, 13:53

Purpose of a strike: to cause so much damage that it becomes cheaper for management/owners to give in to the onion demands, rather then having to pay the losses of the strike.

With this strike however, the damage is disproportional: 63.000 passengers affected, two days (Mon & Wed) without flights, two days (Tue & Thu) with operational fallout. Estimated damage 10m Euro, excluding damage to the brand (imagoschade), excluding possible civil claims.

It seems the onions under-estimated the damage with factor 10. Why haven’t they started with a strike of 3 hours or 6 hours? And why strike on a Monday ànd a Wednesday?! Did they also wanted to bully the guys from OPS and helpdesks and outstations perhaps? The Air France virus?

Me thinks that it went wrong last Wednesday between pilots and onions. The pilots voted to strike, and the onions then gave management an official notice “we strike on Monday and Wedsnesday”. The onions must have hoped that management would then give in to their demands after one or two days of negociations. Thus white smoke on Friday, on time to cancel the strike.

Management however had a view on their bookings for Monday and Wedsnesday, and they knew it would be impossible to rebook 63.000 passengers on short notice, if the negociations would fail. So management did what they had to do business wise: they cancelled all flights.

Filip Lemberechts, the guy from liberal trade onion ACLVB, told VTM tv that he was suprised by that move from management on Wednesday. And I believe him. But when you google him, you will see that Lemberechts is a junior trade onion secretary, doing all kind of general issues. He had no experience with aviation, he had no idea what the real impact of the strike would be, he didn’t knew that 63.000 passengers would be affected, he didn't knew that it would be impossible to rebook that number on short notice.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 12 May 2018, 14:15

Open letter from a pilot:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/12 ... respect--/

So they also strike because they suffer from toxic fumes, cosmic radiation and low humidity. Maybe ICAO should ground all aircraft worldwide till those problems are solved? Or do they only cause problems to pilots, and not to cabin crew and passengers?

Omychron
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Joined: 27 Sep 2012, 14:35

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Omychron » 12 May 2018, 14:50

Passenger wrote:
12 May 2018, 13:53
Me thinks that it went wrong last Wednesday between pilots and onions. The pilots voted to strike, and the onions then gave management an official notice “we strike on Monday and Wedsnesday”. The onions must have hoped that management would then give in to their demands after one or two days of negociations. Thus white smoke on Friday, on time to cancel the strike.
Your guessing is exactly that... Guessing.
Try to stick to facts instead of a one-sided and overly biased opinion.
Passenger wrote:
12 May 2018, 14:15
Open letter from a pilot:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/12 ... respect--/

So they also strike because they suffer from toxic fumes, cosmic radiation and low humidity. Maybe ICAO should ground all aircraft worldwide till those problems are solved?
And the only thing you hadn't done yet was pull things out of context. Nice of you to combine it with ignorance. SUCH an onion.

Plenty of studies were performed looking at the environmental factors affecting flying crew. Having 10+km atmosphere below you instead of above has its consequences, so does working irregular hours. Ask anyone working a night shift how they feel after switching biorhythm a few times a week or month.
This year and last year there were events where several flying crew got ill due to fumes in the cabin (probably related to technical issues, but who knows without a proper investigation?), and it is one of the MANY points raised. Again, there is no single reason we strike, but these are all drops in the bucket.

By your logic, flying should be banned for health reasons then? Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? Let's ban x-rays while we're at it, as those are detrimental to radiologists' health. Then again, their employers provide protection. Fumes in the cockpit were "investigated", no further attention was given to them.
Passenger wrote:
12 May 2018, 14:15
Or do they only cause problems to pilots, and not to cabin crew and passengers?
They cause as much damage to cabin crew as to us, noone said otherwise. Stick to facts, don't read what you want to read. Passengers fly less than us (99% does at least), so I assume environmental factors are less of an issue.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 12 May 2018, 15:01

Introduction from VRT about that open letter: "In een open brief gericht aan de passagiers vragen de piloten van Brussels Airlines meer respect van hun management". Fairly translated: "in an open letter to the passengers, the pilots ask respect from their management".

So the pilots ask respect from management, whilst the pilots themselves totally disrespect the passengers!

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