Brussels Airlines in 2018

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Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

ezis_bis wrote: 10 May 2018, 19:23But if you have nothing to lose, why not try?
Because you care about the passengers and/or want to do the job for which you're paid? :idea:

ezis_bis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by ezis_bis »

Jetter wrote: 10 May 2018, 22:09 Because you care about the passengers and/or want to do the job for which you're paid? :idea:
According to that logic, employees should just accept any work situation at any price (they get paid in the end, so what might possibly be going wrong?)

And for the passengers, this can be an inconvenience. But personally, if in the future I need to take every flight via Frankfurt, this will be a bigger inconvenience. Luckily, people will be rebooked and get refunds (https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/t ... dex_en.htm) and yes, this has already happened to me with other airlines.

In a few weeks I'll fly SN again. No hard feelings.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

ezis_bis wrote: 10 May 2018, 22:34According to that logic, employees should just accept any work situation at any price (they get paid in the end, so what might possibly be going wrong?)
Minimum conditions are governed by law, and everyone is free to accept a job or not. According to the logic 'If you have nothing to lose you can try if a strike helps' you ruin the company you're working for and the country you're working in. The AF pilots are following that logic for a long time while KL pilots had their last strike 20 years ago. The results speak for themselves. And it isn't if the KL pilots couldn't have tried to strike to up their wages a bit more.
And for the passengers, this can be an inconvenience. But personally, if in the future I need to take every flight via Frankfurt, this will be a bigger inconvenience.
I doubt strikes within a year of fully being taken over gives LH the confidence to invest in SN to prevent that from happening. Also as pilot you're in charge of the plane, not of the company. The SN pilots should realize that without LH's investments their wouldn't have been a SN at all anymore because it's a marginal business-case given the environment they're working in (BRU airport / country without clear aviation policy / in between London, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt / hardline Belgium unions / inflexible Belgium labor law).

ezis_bis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by ezis_bis »

Jetter wrote: 10 May 2018, 22:45 Minimum conditions are governed by law
Thanks to Unions. Before striking was allowed, this concept did not exist. Just sayin'
I doubt strikes within a year of fully being taken over gives LH the confidence to invest in SN to prevent that from happening.
And how much of this is happening in Dusseldorf, already before the strike?

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 »

If all the aircraft are coming back in the morning from outstation, I wonder where all those aircraft will be park as it will be the first time in Brussels Airport with 50+ Brussels Airlines tail. It might be interesting, hoping there will be some spotter.

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by luchtzak »

crew1990 wrote: 10 May 2018, 23:22 If all the aircraft are coming back in the morning from outstation, I wonder where all those aircraft will be park as it will be the first time in Brussels Airport with 50+ Brussels Airlines tail. It might be interesting, hoping there will be some spotter.
I have wrongly expressed myself, for which I apologies: I wanted to say that it is legally not allowed to strike in another country than Belgium, but that doesn't mean that the aircraft will all return to Brussels on Monday and Wednesday morning.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

luchtzak wrote: 10 May 2018, 18:18 Meanwhile I read that on Wednesday cabin crew is joining the pilots strike as support, and mother company Lufthansa isn't happy with the current situation either.
Since SN will be grounding all its planes, it will be 2 days off for all crews, not days of strike.

I'm afraid all this will only speed-up the melting of SN into EW. Our crews better take crash courses of German!

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Conti764 »

Jetter wrote: 10 May 2018, 22:45
ezis_bis wrote: 10 May 2018, 22:34According to that logic, employees should just accept any work situation at any price (they get paid in the end, so what might possibly be going wrong?)
Minimum conditions are governed by law, and everyone is free to accept a job or not. According to the logic 'If you have nothing to lose you can try if a strike helps' you ruin the company you're working for and the country you're working in. The AF pilots are following that logic for a long time while KL pilots had their last strike 20 years ago. The results speak for themselves. And it isn't if the KL pilots couldn't have tried to strike to up their wages a bit more.
And for the passengers, this can be an inconvenience. But personally, if in the future I need to take every flight via Frankfurt, this will be a bigger inconvenience.
I doubt strikes within a year of fully being taken over gives LH the confidence to invest in SN to prevent that from happening. Also as pilot you're in charge of the plane, not of the company. The SN pilots should realize that without LH's investments their wouldn't have been a SN at all anymore because it's a marginal business-case given the environment they're working in (BRU airport / country without clear aviation policy / in between London, Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt / hardline Belgium unions / inflexible Belgium labor law).
Welk, strike or not... LH was never going to invest in SN anyways...

I wonder why they're not keeping the EW flights on the ground. After all, the only way to hurt LH is through their pet airline, they don't give a damn about SN.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by crew1990 »

luchtzak wrote: 11 May 2018, 00:57 I have wrongly expressed myself, for which I apologies: I wanted to say that it is legally not allowed to strike in another country than Belgium, but that doesn't mean that the aircraft will all return to Brussels on Monday and Wednesday morning.
Actually, the union asked the pilot on outstation to bring the aircraft back to BRU and to go to manifest in front of the B.house afterward. So it looks like the entire fleet will be at BRU on monday and wednesday (unless brussels airlines decide to cancel those flights for organisational purpose)
convair wrote: 11 May 2018, 00:58
luchtzak wrote: 10 May 2018, 18:18 Meanwhile I read that on Wednesday cabin crew is joining the pilots strike as support, and mother company Lufthansa isn't happy with the current situation either.
Since SN will be grounding all its planes, it will be 2 days off for all crews, not days of strike.
No, for the crew, who normally had a duty, we are on standby. At the end, indeed we will probably not fly, but still those are not "day off". Brussels Airlines can still assign a flight duty within the time frame with 1h flexibily before or after the initial duty. Cabin Crew will not be on strike but the union asked not to interfere with the pilot strike, it's all about flexibility. For example a cabin crew operating a long haul flight and then 2 days off afterwards , if this cabin crew have to come back one day later due to the strike, the 2 days off become a local night (1 day off) this is not a problem but only if it's ok for the cabin crew, but the cabin crew can also refuse and a request to have 2 days off, wich would mean that he would be not available to operate a flight he was normally scheduled in.

nordikcam
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by nordikcam »

Conti764 wrote: 11 May 2018, 01:22
Welk, strike or not... LH was never going to invest in SN anyways...

I wonder why they're not keeping the EW flights on the ground. After all, the only way to hurt LH is through their pet airline, they don't give a damn about SN.
No investment from LH. So the situation remains what it is : 10 Long haul and our European network ... over the next 10 years? Exciting ! Or 50 rectified ( recoloriés ) SN planes in EW planes from BRU ? It will not be with me anyway ! I understand the strike...fingers crossed !

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

60,000 passengers to rebook or reimburse. Even if it takes only 5 minutes per passenger, that would require 5,000 hours of work or 625 agents working 8 hours per day. Brussels Airlines cannot possibly handle that!
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Yesterday, Belga has spoken to Andreas Bartels, spokesman Lufthansa. Metrotime: "...Investeringen in de vloot doet Lufthansa waar de winst zit… We doen dat waar er groeiperspectief is, waar de beste marges zitten. Als een luchtvaartmaatschappij niet de juiste kostenpositie heeft, dan moeten ze daar ook geen grote investeringen verwachten…" Report on BX1.be: “...Aucun investissement n’est à attendre dans une flotte dont le positionnement en termes de coûts n’est pas correct..." Public broadcast VRT also has spoken to Andreas Bartels: “The only statement that we give at this moment, is that we are very concerned about what’s happening in Belgium, especially with the strike announcement”. Question from VRT: “Could this jeopardize the future of Brussels Airlines within the Lufthansa group?” Answer from Bartels: “Well, I don’t want to go so far, but for sure, it doesn’t help”.

What the onions are doing now, is a stupidity rarely seen. Filip Lemberechts, trade onion ACLVB said on VTM yesterday: quote: “…onze oproep is kom aan tafel en laten we samen tot een oplossing komen. We zijn ons goed bewust van de economische schade voor Lufthansa, maar dat was absoluut niet het doel”. Translation: after we called for a strike, we had hoped that we could meet with management and find an agreement. We are well aware of the economical damage we cause for Lufthansa, but that was not our aim.

Can one act more stupid in aviation? The onions called a strike on 9th May for 14th and 16th May, forcing the airline to cancel almost all flights. And then the onions expect that management will negociate their demands to avoid one of the two strikes? Even the VTM reporter knew this was impossible: "what if those negocations would have failed? It would have created ultimate chaos at BRU".

Last month, Christina Foerster had to tell Frankfurt that her airline had lost 28m Euro in Jan-Febr. Last week, she had to tell Frankfurt that the Belgian pilots have 12 demands, resulting in a 25% gross salary cost increase for the airline. And on Wednesday, Foerster had to tell them they have called a strike, adding 10m to the loss. We won’t hear from Lufthansa again till after Wednesday, but their next communication will make clear that the merger from Brussels Airlines into Eurowings will be more then what the pesssimists here have predicted.

Links from above press quotes:
Metrotime.be NL:
https://nl.metrotime.be/2018/05/10/news ... -airlines/
BX1.be FR:
https://bx1.be/news/conflit-social-chez ... ees-lundi/
VRT.be NL:
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2018/05/10 ... --en-belt/
VTM.be NL:
https://nieuws.vtm.be/video/

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

sn26567 wrote: 11 May 2018, 11:07 60,000 passengers to rebook or reimburse. Even if it takes only 5 minutes per passenger, that would require 5,000 hours of work or 625 agents working 8 hours per day. Brussels Airlines cannot possibly handle that!
Exactly, that’s why they need an automated procedure, so passengers can rebook themselves.
Also, why are they not wetleasing? Air Belgium could do shuttles to MUC and FRA to reroute a maximum number of passengers...

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boavida »

convair wrote: 11 May 2018, 00:58

I'm afraid all this will only speed-up the melting of SN into EW. Our crews better take crash courses of German!
Exactly. It will be a lot easier for LH to ditch a brand that people associate with striking.

Just like with Sabena, it's the unions that give the final blow to the company. Pretty unbelievable.

RIP SN.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Yuqu12 »

No need to aggravate the situation imo: this is only the second time that there is a strike in the history of Brussels Airlines. If there is one airline which is associated with striking at the moment, people should look at Air France rather than Brussels Airlines...

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

Boavida wrote: 11 May 2018, 12:24
convair wrote: 11 May 2018, 00:58

I'm afraid all this will only speed-up the melting of SN into EW. Our crews better take crash courses of German!
Exactly. It will be a lot easier for LH to ditch a brand that people associate with striking.

Just like with Sabena, it's the unions that give the final blow to the company. Pretty unbelievable.

RIP SN.
A bit an unfair comment! Brussels airlines would be gone for years, without, amongst other subsidies, the pilots sacrificing their special pension fund to subsidise the company. They saved the company, now that there is a worldwide shortage of pilots it’s payback time.
Exactly the same happened at Sabena, pilots took multiple 17% paycuts to keep te company alive whilst management gave themselves a bonus in Luxembourg. Sabena had 150 executive Vice Presidents.... The pilots were trying to stop this money drain and striked out of frustration as nobody believed them. (I don’t know if Mr Van Rossem is on this forum, but contact him and he will explain every detail to you).

Darjeeling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Darjeeling »

I cannot agree more with what was said in the two last posts.
Some people here are ignorant or stupid enough to follow the statements and propaganda spread by the SN communication dept or the so-called managers of the very "successful and profitable" EW (remains to be seen and analyzed).
As to why EW are not kept on the ground, the reason is simple, those flights will be flown by SN management pilots. These are really dedicated believe me... ;-)

With a total grounding of the whole SN fleet, the signal sent will be crystal clear: "you know up to where we can go to if you keep ripping us off...".

BTW, did some of you already count the numbers of strike days at LH the last 10 years ? And I think Vereinigung Cockpit did obtain what they were fighting for without really hurting the financial results of mother LH.

The goal is: a positive outcome for ALL the community of SN frontliners and their quality of life.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

I'm not judging anyone here.

The cost of an SN's crews strike will certainly not jeopardize the LH group, but, as I wrote earlier, I guess a strike won't help SN's future in the group.

For companies' mgt, it's never "the right moment" for their employees to go on strike. Maybe this time it really is the case, although I fully understand the pilots' arguments and frustration.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

sn26567 wrote: 11 May 2018, 11:07 60,000 passengers to rebook or reimburse. Even if it takes only 5 minutes per passenger, that would require 5,000 hours of work or 625 agents working 8 hours per day. Brussels Airlines cannot possibly handle that!
The call centre is overwhelmed, despite the fact that it has been reinforced. It often takes half an hour to find a solution that suits the passenger.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

sn26567 wrote: 11 May 2018, 17:41
sn26567 wrote: 11 May 2018, 11:07 60,000 passengers to rebook or reimburse. Even if it takes only 5 minutes per passenger, that would require 5,000 hours of work or 625 agents working 8 hours per day. Brussels Airlines cannot possibly handle that!
The call centre is overwhelmed, despite the fact that it has been reinforced. It often takes half an hour to find a solution that suits the passenger.
A simple ‘change your booking” tool on the website would solve the problem, but as with pilots and aircraft, Brussels Airlines has no money to pay for necessary people and equipment...

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