Brussels Airlines in 2018

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Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Even if the above would be true, it is no valid reason to screw the passengers.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

We all know SN pilots are definitely not the biggest earners in the industry, quite the contrary. But comparing salaries between SN and the biggest EU legacy carriers is the biggest b*llsh*t ever. And besides the lower but still competitive gross salaries, taxes in Belgium are a big issue.

Besides that, the pilots at SN have some good points, but they also think they are in a strong position and nothing can happen to them now so they can ask whatever they want even though they know it's not reasonable for a company like SN now. But air traffic demand will always be there, if it's not SN operating it will be another and many wouldn't even bother going abroad if SN stops operating. So pilots are 'safe' whatever happens and a lot of them don't care in the slightest way about SN as a company.

What they forget is that they are hijacking thousands and thousands of passengers (that's 1 thing), but also over 3000 ground staff and cabin crew that do care about SN and defending the company's position in the Group to safeguard their jobs. I just have 1 word for their actions: selfish. Because for LH it will be simple, if it doesn't work the soft way, it will be hard way and those that will be impacted the most by that will not be the pilots.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote: 05 May 2018, 16:24 We all know SN pilots are definitely not the biggest earners in the industry, quite the contrary. But comparing salaries between SN and the biggest EU legacy carriers is the biggest b*llsh*t ever. And besides the lower but still competitive gross salaries, taxes in Belgium are a big issue.

Besides that, the pilots at SN have some good points, but they also think they are in a strong position and nothing can happen to them now so they can ask whatever they want even though they know it's not reasonable for a company like SN now. But air traffic demand will always be there, if it's not SN operating it will be another and many wouldn't even bother going abroad if SN stops operating. So pilots are 'safe' whatever happens and a lot of them don't care in the slightest way about SN as a company.

What they forget is that they are hijacking thousands and thousands of passengers (that's 1 thing), but also over 3000 ground staff and cabin crew that do care about SN and defending the company's position in the Group to safeguard their jobs. I just have 1 word for their actions: selfish. Because for LH it will be simple, if it doesn't work the soft way, it will be hard way and those that will be impacted the most by that will not be the pilots.
Very sensible post Romax!
I wouldn’t call them selfish though, but rather looking after themselves and their families. Taxes are not the issue, pilots pay the same taxes as all other Belgian residents, BA pilots living in Belgium included.
It’s not only the pilots “hijacking the passengers”, it’s a shared responsibilty between the management and the pilots. Managers are paid a bonus according to the outcome of the negotiations, they will risk a strike if it increases their personal bonus.
As for cabin crew and ground crew: each time I fly SN I see less and less “extra smiles”. The SN model is under pressure, it doesn’t work when the aircraft are full and it is losmaking when they are not full..
Last edited by Poiu on 05 May 2018, 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Yuqu12 »

Well, the reason of Davignon that there is not enough money seems logic, but as Mutti Lufti owns SN for 100%, Mutti Lufti can stop a possible strike by giving SN the money to fund the higher wages of the pilots :D

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

Poiu wrote: 05 May 2018, 16:40I wouldn’t call them selfish though, but rather looking after themselves and their families.
:?
self·ish (sĕl′fĭsh)
adj.
1. Concerned chiefly or excessively with oneself, and having little regard for others.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

Jetter wrote: 05 May 2018, 17:35
Poiu wrote: 05 May 2018, 16:40I wouldn’t call them selfish though, but rather looking after themselves and their families.
:?
self·ish (sĕl′fĭsh)
adj.
1. Concerned chiefly or excessively with oneself, and having little regard for others.
How does looking after your family fit in your definition??
Also, looking after, meaning protecting their health, you can hardly call that selfish isn’t it?
There is a subtle but significant difference between what I wrote and your copy/paste from Google.

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Jetter »

Poiu wrote: 05 May 2018, 17:50How does looking after your family fit in your definition?
Pilots earn far more than average. If other people are supposed to be able to look after there family with way less I'm sure pilots should are already able to with their current salary. Also according to your logic pilots without a family would be selfish and with a family wouldn't. That doesn't seem very sensible.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by b720 »

It is suicidal to strike now at SN. The airline is loss making, its future is at stake. This time next year might be EUROWINGS .. and striking in the middle of a long week end when many people are on vacation? That is cruel, to say the least.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

Jetter wrote: 05 May 2018, 19:29
Poiu wrote: 05 May 2018, 17:50How does looking after your family fit in your definition?
Pilots earn far more than average. If other people are supposed to be able to look after there family with way less I'm sure pilots should are already able to with their current salary. Also according to your logic pilots without a family would be selfish and with a family wouldn't. That doesn't seem very sensible.
Please don’t read what I didn’t write and maybe look up the definitions of jealous and modus tollens (the logic rule you wrongly used in your reply)

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Bralo20 »

What's interesting is that SN is back to loosing money after LH takes over the airline, yet before when LH was a minority owner they were in the black even in the year when they had significant losses due to the attacks. Since not much has changed it would be expected that SN continued to make profit yet suddenly after LH buys the whole airline SN is back in the red and loosing money... One might wonder if LH is deliberately cooking the books to make it's case to dismantle SN and make it into EW...

Just something to think about ;)

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

Bralo20 wrote: 05 May 2018, 20:54 What's interesting is that SN is back to loosing money after LH takes over the airline, yet before when LH was a minority owner they were in the black even in the year when they had significant losses due to the attacks. Since not much has changed it would be expected that SN continued to make profit yet suddenly after LH buys the whole airline SN is back in the red and loosing money... One might wonder if LH is deliberately cooking the books to make it's case to dismantle SN and make it into EW...

Just something to think about ;)
I'm completely agree with that,it's definitely a management fault here one more reason to strike.
The new management is not doing a good job all the civil airline industries is booming,every year is better and now Brussels Airline is losing money one should say:me heeel Antwaarpe mor ni me mij....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

lumumba wrote: The new management is not doing a good job all the civil airline industries is booming,every year is better and now Brussels Airline is losing money one should say:me heeel Antwaarpe mor ni me mij....
Very few airlines are making a profit during the first quarter. And the losses of Air France are abysmal.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Inquirer »

As soon as the word STRIKE is spoken, it seems emotions take over and a whole lot of people here are not able to analyse carefully any longer: although some are probably willingly being misinformed too, I should say.

First, as André has mentioned, the Q1 of most airlines which do not run a global network is at a loss: If I'm not mistaken, B.air had a loss over Q1/2017 which was twice as big as the one now mentioned for Q1/2018?
(BTW- well played by Davignon: mentioning a fact, but at the same time also introducing a wrong idea in the minds of his audience ;) )

Secondly, I find some of the comments regarding the pilots here quite strange: just because they earn more than average employees or because they happen to be doing a 'dreamjob' in the eyes of some, somehow means they should not be willing to maximize their income further? It's commercial aviation alright and that means that by definition those active in it are there to make good money from their activity: in fact as much as they can.

One can't but notice there's currently a worldwide trend of acute pilot shortage and like with any commodity, when demand outpaces the offer, the price goes up. Pilots at Brussels Airlines are said to have just a mediocre remuneration package and are probably very much aware what they can earn elsewhere (I wouldn't be surprised to read they are being headhunted by specialized companies even with some great offers), so combining the first element (that of a significantly better financial performance of their airline) with the second (the knowledge of being relatively poorly remunerated) drives them to the logical point of pushing for a better deal. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO?

If you read some of the comments above, it seems as if nobody on 'above average wage' should ever ask for a pay raise and they lose are normal rights to further financial bargaining the moment they have a 'dreamjob'? It suffices to point to professional football to point out such is luckily not reality of course...
A commercial airline is not a non-profit organization or a local amateur football club: it's an enterprise where professionals come together to do a certain job and expect to be paid well for it. And when the competition is offering them way better terms, then we shouldn't be surprised to see these terms also being asked here: demand and offer, remember?

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

sn26567 wrote: 05 May 2018, 21:10
lumumba wrote: The new management is not doing a good job all the civil airline industries is booming,every year is better and now Brussels Airline is losing money one should say:me heeel Antwaarpe mor ni me mij....
Very few airlines are making a profit during the first quarter. And the losses of Air France are abysmal.
So this is miscommunication from Mr Davignon!?!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

lumumba wrote: 06 May 2018, 09:42
sn26567 wrote: 05 May 2018, 21:10 Very few airlines are making a profit during the first quarter. And the losses of Air France are abysmal.
So this is miscommunication from Mr Davignon!?!
No, it is not miscommunication from mr Davignon. It is bad reading.

Few days ago, one of the two Belgian major networks filmed Davignon and Buekenhout (ACV onion delegate) both arriving at the same office, few hours after the onions had called their strike. My memory says that Davignon said to Buekenhout: "bad timing you did there, sir. I have just reported a huge loss for the first quarter, and now I have to ask them money for a salary rise?". Reply from the onion guy: "it seems we have to see each other a lot during the next days".

(onion-union: keyboard failure)

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

onion? Deliberate disrespect, or another dirty trick of some or other dumbphone?
Cannot be too vigilant about them! I actually recommend to not use them for written messages at all, or, if one really must, with great caution. They are clobbering up communications quickly.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 06 May 2018, 14:29 onion? Deliberate disrespect, or another dirty trick of some or other dumbphone?
Cannot be too vigilant about them! I actually recommend to not use them for written messages at all, or, if one really must, with great caution. They are clobbering up communications quickly.
What? Great caution for onions who screw the holiday plans and business meetings from thousands of people??? 220 flights risk to be cancelled on Thursday because the best earners at Brussels Airlines are not satisfied with a 3% salary increase (on top of the legal index increase, that is). Onions is still too polite for that behaviour.

If their strike goes on, mr Olieslagers, may I ask you to come to the airport next Thursday, and spend some time at the check-in counters and at the helpdesk? Listen to what the stranded passengers think about the strike. And listen to the insults that the ground staff will have to undergo - people earning at least 5 times less then the ones going on strike.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by jan_olieslagers »

ok, deliberate disrespect it is, then. To each their own, no comment; and no I'll not be coming to the airport either - I've not been there for many many years and do not feel like I'm missing anything.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 06 May 2018, 14:54 I've not been there for many many years and do not feel like I'm missing anything.
Geen erger blinden dan zij die niet willen zien. What a pity: it's the best way to see and feel how passengers think about a strike. After all, aviation should be about passengers, me thinks.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by lumumba »

But strike is a right or do I mis something,you can also blame the management for the strike.
If the pilots go on strike that means there is no other solution I can not imagine they are going on striker (and in this case more than 80% are backing it)and shooting in there own foot if they had another way to do it!!!!!
I have the impression passenger that you want to remove the right to strike like in a fascist country?!?!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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