Brussels Airlines in 2018

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Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Ansett wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 23:29 Fake news ! For me, this is not the first flight operatied by SN for EW. The aircraft livery is not SN and the flight attendants do not wear the SN uniforms. Fake News !
Boavida wrote: 22 Mar 2018, 17:03 The beginning of the end.
I agree. Honestly, let's not mistake the smoke for the fire.
Well, you guys (m/f) made me wonder if OO-SCW is operated by Brussels Airlines or by Eurowings. So I've asked it politely to the Belgian registry, and OO-SCW is Brussels Airlines indeed.

Have a nice evening, and please use the weekend to relax.
OO-SCW reg.jpg

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Ansett wrote: 23 Mar 2018, 23:29 Fake news ! For me, this is not the first flight operatied by SN for EW. The aircraft livery is not SN and the flight attendants do not wear the SN uniforms. Fake News ! :?
Boavida wrote: 22 Mar 2018, 17:03 The beginning of the end.
I agree. Honestly, let's not mistake the smoke for the fire.
So you both agree that the 4 Sukhoi's are real "Brussels Airlines" aircraft? :?

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Yuqu12 »

The homebase is not Brussels. How is it then a "real" SN plane?

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

Yuqu12 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 10:24 The homebase is not Brussels. How is it then a "real" SN plane?
Since when is that a criteria? Because of the name (well then Air Berlin was very much anti-Air Berlin by having bases throughout Germany, PMI, etc.) or because of sentiment? ...

Aircraft are leased by SN (from LHG), on the SN AOC with a Belgian reg., all crew has SN contracts (most crew is German (mainly ex-AB), but there are also existing Belgian SN pilots that voluntarily and successfully applied for a position in DUS) and is paid by SN, staff is trained by SN people from BRU, etc., etc., etc.
No it's not the SN product and brand, why would it be if it's operated out of Germany (yes even in Germany SN is a very bad known brand). But it's part of the SN business with additional work in particular for the more operational departments and it delivers work and revenue in BRU (even if it's just to a limited extent). So I don't see the problem. If it wouldn't have been SN doing this work it would have been another airline which has nothing to do with SN (like SunExpress Deutschland or another affiliated AOC) and then SN would have no benefits whatsoever from the German EW operations. Or do people think EWG/LHG would have just left the AB gap in DUS wide open without taking the opportunity to take this important market in Germany?! Or do some really think it would make sense to have the SN brand and product operated there?! Come on, let's be serious here for a minute.

For the BRU long haul operations. I see a lot of comments about "without expanding the fleet"...seriously let's all believe the words read in the media, do we? No there is no long haul fleet expansion this year, but nothing has been said about the future. Just like with every investment it has to be built on a proper business case which will or will not be approved at due time. BRU will remain connected to North America and Asia as long as those routes prove to be financially sustainable. Or does everyone think here that if SN doesn't operate those routes, all those people would just transfer through Germany/Switserland/Austria? I would think most here are smart enough to realize that this market will be taken over simply by other airlines and LH will not get more or less of that share than anyone else with good connections (and those with direct alternatives like for NYC and IAD are in the lead for the local market). Where do you think the preference is for LHG: having a market leading daughter company operating these routes or getting a small share of the market via transfer feeding to the congested core hubs of the group? Even before the full take-over LH had the opportunity to block the launch of routes like JFK, IAD, YYZ and BOM (without support from LH, those investments would have never made it and especially JFK in 2012 absolutely impossible), yet they were in favor of them, why do you think that is... But of course, it has to pay off and that's where some improvements are needed for some of these routes vs. the performance in 2017.

Of course it are exiting times for the Belgian aviation sector, by wow what a bunch of drama queens on this forum lately...

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

Yuqu12 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 10:24 The homebase is not Brussels. How is it then a "real" SN plane?
Some very clever public servants at the European Institutions and unfallible impeccible indefictable members of the European Parliament have decided this for us. In the definitions in EU Rule 261/2004, they have decided:

(a) "air carrier" means an air transport undertaking with a valid operating licence;

(b) "operating air carrier" means an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger;

(c) "Community carrier" means an air carrier with a valid operating licence granted by a Member State in accordance with the provisions of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2407/92 of 23 July 1992 on licensing of air carriers(5);


OO-SCW thus is a Belgian aircraft, with Belgian carrier Brussels Airlines nv/sa acting as operating air carrier for Eurowings.

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 18:31
Yuqu12 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 10:24 The homebase is not Brussels. How is it then a "real" SN plane?
Some very clever public servants at the European Institutions and unfallible impeccible indefictable members of the European Parliament have decided this for us. In the definitions in EU Rule 261/2004, they have decided:

(a) "air carrier" means an air transport undertaking with a valid operating licence;

(b) "operating air carrier" means an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger;

(c) "Community carrier" means an air carrier with a valid operating licence granted by a Member State in accordance with the provisions of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2407/92 of 23 July 1992 on licensing of air carriers(5);


All correct, but please use the same logic when talking about the SSJs.
By the way, the only reason for the setup is social dumping, just like builders use Polish subcontractors.

All correct, but please apply the same logic to the SSJs.
The real reason of the whole setup is social dumping, just like builders use Polish subcontractors.

OO-SCW thus is a Belgian aircraft, with Belgian carrier Brussels Airlines nv/sa acting as operating air carrier for Eurowings.

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

RoMax wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 13:25 For the BRU long haul operations. I see a lot of comments about "without expanding the fleet"...seriously let's all believe the words read in the media, do we? No there is no long haul fleet expansion this year, but nothing has been said about the future. Just like with every investment it has to be built on a proper business case which will or will not be approved at due time. BRU will remain connected to North America and Asia as long as those routes prove to be financially sustainable. Or does everyone think here that if SN doesn't operate those routes, all those people would just transfer through Germany/Switserland/Austria? I would think most here are smart enough to realize that this market will be taken over simply by other airlines and LH will not get more or less of that share than anyone else with good connections (and those with direct alternatives like for NYC and IAD are in the lead for the local market). Where do you think the preference is for LHG: having a market leading daughter company operating these routes or getting a small share of the market via transfer feeding to the congested core hubs of the group? Even before the full take-over LH had the opportunity to block the launch of routes like JFK, IAD, YYZ and BOM (without support from LH, those investments would have never made it and especially JFK in 2012 absolutely impossible), yet they were in favor of them, why do you think that is... But of course, it has to pay off and that's where some improvements are needed for some of these routes vs. the performance in 2017.
Very wise comments, RoMax, but there obviously exists a great frustration coming from what many of us here consider a number of opportunities missed by the LH group over the last few years.

True, LH saved SN from bankruptcy and has contributed to bring SN where it is today, but they could have done much more and better, given their size and strength.

And the way they are treating SN (making it a pt-to-pt airline, firing executives and placing it under the EW umbrella) doesn't convince me that there is a will to make the most of it. The current LH boss (whose mandate was just extended for 5 years btw) doesn't seem to realize where SN is coming from and what has been achieved with "his" money.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 »

RoMax wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 13:25 No it's not the SN product and brand, why would it be if it's operated out of Germany (yes even in Germany SN is a very bad known brand).
But why is SN so badly known in Germany? Because LH decided to monopolise the routes from BRU to its main bases FRA and MUC. The former SN (Sabena) was flying to those airports and was well known there.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 23:41
RoMax wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 13:25 No it's not the SN product and brand, why would it be if it's operated out of Germany (yes even in Germany SN is a very bad known brand).
But why is SN so badly known in Germany? Because LH decided to monopolise the routes from BRU to its main bases FRA and MUC. The former SN (Sabena) was flying to those airports and was well known there.
No André, a few flights to FRA and MUC don't bring brand knowledge to the German market (and anyway, the German market split of SN to non-hub destinations and LH on FRA/MUC was jointly decided at a time when SN could have perfectly blocked the decision if they wanted to - even if that would have meant upsetting the new investors at that time). It's just a simple fact that small airlines are hardly known outside their home market(s) and secondary or core markets (like much of Africa for SN, parts of Asia for Finnair, Brazil for TAP, etc. ). You can throw a lot of money behind that and fly anywhere anytime, but in the end the truth is that it will likely not pay off as you expect. It's not because we aviation enthusiasts can name the top 50 of EU airlines and likely guess much of the order in size correctly, that the general public can. If you ask the average European to name the airlines they know out of their head (besides their home carrier(s)) and they come to Ryanair, easyJet, Lufthansa, British Airways, Air France and depending on where they live SAS, KLM, Iberia, WizzAir and Alitalia, it will already be a lot (of course a few more here and there, but the 'common list' is very limited).

Sabena was not well known in Germany 'because it was flying to FRA and MUC', but because it was carrying a legacy for decades, it used to be a leading airline in Europe (eventually dropping further and further down the list in terms of size vs. the rest, but still considered a well known and relatively prestigious company). SN also served FRA and MUC for many years until after the investment from LH, the company was really not better known in Germany back than compared to now (quite the contrary, the links with LHG, Miles&More and Star Alliance brought a huge German-speaking public to BRU, but on the total German market that still doesn't mean a lot).

But in any case, this is for me totally beside the point. SN would have never ever had more brand recognition in Germany than another German member of the LH Group. I will not repeat the history of Eurowings here, but I already explained that even though it has been totally revived after the Germanwings disaster, Eurowings already exists for decades (and was itself the founder of Germanwings before LH came into the story - both of which are operating since the 1990's already). The brand went under the radar a bit for several years when it flew as a franchise for LH Regional (but it always remained a very recognizable "operated by Eurowings" operation).
We can be chauvinistic, but it would just be absolute nonsense to have the SN brand operating out of DUS in the context of the LH Group which has the 2 market leading airlines in Germany in the group.

JustPlanes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by JustPlanes »

I tend to not post so much positive about SN lately however I'd like to congratulate them with the 5th special A320 livery. It looks stunning. Can't wait for #6... Maybe a Sabena retro livery... One can only dream :)
Anyway look forward to capturing #5 soon!

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

sn26567 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 23:41
RoMax wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 13:25 No it's not the SN product and brand, why would it be if it's operated out of Germany (yes even in Germany SN is a very bad known brand).
But why is SN so badly known in Germany? Because LH decided to monopolise the routes from BRU to its main bases FRA and MUC. The former SN (Sabena) was flying to those airports and was well known there.
It's a good point, even if the sharing on FRA and MUC wouldn't have changed very much to the perception of SN in Germany.
But I never understood why they split the destinations that way i.s.o. code-sharing on all. They do the same with Swiss on Zurich and Geneva. Code-sharing on all destinations would allow each company to spare on overnighting.

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skumfiduse
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by skumfiduse »

convair wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 19:03
sn26567 wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 23:41
RoMax wrote: 24 Mar 2018, 13:25 No it's not the SN product and brand, why would it be if it's operated out of Germany (yes even in Germany SN is a very bad known brand).
But why is SN so badly known in Germany? Because LH decided to monopolise the routes from BRU to its main bases FRA and MUC. The former SN (Sabena) was flying to those airports and was well known there.
It's a good point, even if the sharing on FRA and MUC wouldn't have changed very much to the perception of SN in Germany.
But I never understood why they split the destinations that way i.s.o. code-sharing on all. They do the same with Swiss on Zurich and Geneva. Code-sharing on all destinations would allow each company to spare on overnighting.
SN and OS also work nicely together on the Brussels-Vienna route. Sounds like mummy Lufty is a bit selfish :lol:

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DannyVDB »

I don't think so, since LH is doing FRA and MUC, while SN took over HAM and BER (and Hannover ...)...

Makes sense to me ...

D

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skumfiduse
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by skumfiduse »

DannyVDB wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:02 I don't think so, since LH is doing FRA and MUC, while SN took over HAM and BER (and Hannover ...)...

Makes sense to me ...

D
From a hub-point of view, yes she is. Don't know about passengers or revenue, though.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger »

skumfiduse wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:10
DannyVDB wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:02 I don't think so, since LH is doing FRA and MUC, while SN took over HAM and BER (and Hannover ...)...
Makes sense to me ...
From a hub-point of view, yes she is. Don't know about passengers or revenue, though.
The yield is excellent. It's a combination of feeder flights and business travel. Actually, these two destinations were worth it for Lufthansa to buy Brussels Airlines - and eliminate competition on the two routes. I wonder why no other carrier stepped in to replace Brussels Airlines and to compete against Lufthansa.

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skumfiduse
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by skumfiduse »

Passenger wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:11
skumfiduse wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:10
DannyVDB wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:02 I don't think so, since LH is doing FRA and MUC, while SN took over HAM and BER (and Hannover ...)...
Makes sense to me ...
From a hub-point of view, yes she is. Don't know about passengers or revenue, though.
The yield is excellent. It's a combination of feeder flights and business travel. Actually, these two destinations were worth it for Lufthansa to buy Brussels Airlines - and eliminate competition on the two routes. I wonder why no other carrier stepped in to replace Brussels Airlines and to compete against Lufthansa.
What carrier could make it work like LH? I.e. feeder flights and business travel. Wasn't it Transavia having plans for Brussels-Munich? I think they announced it to start summer 2016, but the service never got materialised.

C96C
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by C96C »

OO-SNL, an Airbus A320 (MSN 1961, ex AB) is on the Belgian register since today (27/03/2018).
http://www.mobilit.fgov.be:7081/bcaa/ai ... search.jsf

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Yuqu12 »

skumfiduse wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:25
Passenger wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:11
skumfiduse wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 21:10
From a hub-point of view, yes she is. Don't know about passengers or revenue, though.
The yield is excellent. It's a combination of feeder flights and business travel. Actually, these two destinations were worth it for Lufthansa to buy Brussels Airlines - and eliminate competition on the two routes. I wonder why no other carrier stepped in to replace Brussels Airlines and to compete against Lufthansa.
What carrier could make it work like LH? I.e. feeder flights and business travel. Wasn't it Transavia having plans for Brussels-Munich? I think they announced it to start summer 2016, but the service never got materialised.
How about Ryanair? They already fly at BRU and FRA... They are probably (well) known in Germany. If they can keep their fares around the price of the train tickets, you can snap the persons from there: there would be a very limited price difference and you are about two hours faster in FRA than with the train...

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair »

Yuqu12 wrote: 27 Mar 2018, 13:42
skumfiduse wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:25
Passenger wrote: 25 Mar 2018, 22:11
The yield is excellent. It's a combination of feeder flights and business travel. Actually, these two destinations were worth it for Lufthansa to buy Brussels Airlines - and eliminate competition on the two routes. I wonder why no other carrier stepped in to replace Brussels Airlines and to compete against Lufthansa.
What carrier could make it work like LH? I.e. feeder flights and business travel. Wasn't it Transavia having plans for Brussels-Munich? I think they announced it to start summer 2016, but the service never got materialised.
How about Ryanair? They already fly at BRU and FRA... They are probably (well) known in Germany. If they can keep their fares around the price of the train tickets, you can snap the persons from there: there would be a very limited price difference and you are about two hours faster in FRA than with the train...
1. Probably not true if you go from center to center;
2. And Ryanair doesn't offer connexions..

Lost cause imho.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Yuqu12 »

Well, it all depends from where you're travelling. I just wanted to point out that low cost companies can start this line up and offer some concurrence to LH. If they are cheaper, prices from LH may drop.

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