Snowfall hits European airports (10/11/12 December 2017)

[Apuneger]

I don't blame the snow fighters, I blame their management, not just here in BRU, but in all the major airports that think they don't need good and enough snow equipment as it only happens once a year... They make enough money to guarantee the premium service they promise and get paid for.

I partially agree with you on this matter. There is a big issue with the operational 'mindset' of airport management for this kind of winter conditions. For most Western European airports, intense snowfall / icing conditions are considered as an 'exceptional' situation. And, honestly, who can blame them, as these meteorological conditions have indeed become quite exceptional over the last decade.

However, every few winters, we still see periods of heavy snowfall and icing conditions for several days and/or even weeks. This depends on lots of meteorological settings (polar vortex,...) which are not important now to go into further detail.

Coming back to my first paragraph, European Airports should maybe start to reconsider their mindset on these winter conditions. Maybe they should start treating these kind of conditions as if they will last for several months instead of just one or two days? Of course, this means that they will have to invest a lot of cash into special runway clearing equipment, de-icing equipment, trained and dedicated staff instead of a few volunteers, farmers, etc... But this should not be a major issue for any of these airports. And if it is, I'm sure most airlines will be happy to pay a premium to prevent the kind of situation we've had at BRU the last few days. We live in the 21st century, not the 19th...

Best regards,
Ivan

[b.lufthansa]

I have said this before, 8 years ago to be precise: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=40972

[flightlover]

I don't blame the snow fighters, I blame their management, not just here in BRU, but in all the major airports that think they don't need good and enough snow equipment as it only happens once a year... They make enough money to guarantee the premium service they promise and get paid for.

I partially agree with you on this matter. There is a big issue with the operational 'mindset' of airport management for this kind of winter conditions. For most Western European airports, intense snowfall / icing conditions are considered as an 'exceptional' situation. And, honestly, who can blame them, as these meteorological conditions have indeed become quite exceptional over the last decade.

However, every few winters, we still see periods of heavy snowfall and icing conditions for several days and/or even weeks. This depends on lots of meteorological settings (polar vortex,...) which are not important now to go into further detail.

Coming back to my first paragraph, European Airports should maybe start to reconsider their mindset on these winter conditions. Maybe they should start treating these kind of conditions as if they will last for several months instead of just one or two days? Of course, this means that they will have to invest a lot of cash into special runway clearing equipment, de-icing equipment, trained and dedicated staff instead of a few volunteers, farmers, etc... But this should not be a major issue for any of these airports. And if it is, I'm sure most airlines will be happy to pay a premium to prevent the kind of situation we've had at BRU the last few days. We live in the 21st century, not the 19th...

Best regards,
Ivan

These airlines will be just as happily sending the bill to their customers. Oh wait, they want to pay peanuts for premium service...

[Stij]

These airlines will be just as happily sending the bill to their customers. Oh wait, they want to pay peanuts for premium service...

I beleive we already pay the bill... seen the P&L account of Brussels Airport lately?

Cheers,

Stij

[Inquirer]

I have to agree with what is said above: snow clearing is a core job of the airport operator, yet one that requires significant investments which are probably not worth it from an economical point of view at our latitudes.

However, the economic repercussions on the wider economy are so big that maybe it's time the government steps in and does some regulatory work here because indeed, the very same pattern can be divulged every (other) year: severe weather conditions followed by fanatic but inefficient cleaning operations, leading to much longer than needed delays, nuisance, and even cancelations to travelers.

By putting a set of minimum operating requirements for the airport on the table, linked to the severity of the weather phenomenon of course, and combined with fines if the airport operator is found not able to fulfill those requirements, the airport operator will be 'stimulated' to invest more money in tools and infrastructure to tackle also non-common weather conditions better and swifter, thus managing to reduce the time needed to do the difficult job.

A final remark: from my recollection, it's not the first time BRU was found to have wasted hours clearing a runway which later turned out to be not suitable for use due to the winds?
Seems to me as an outsider that BRU might be obsessed to opt for a particular default runway configuration as much as it can, even if this can be called 'challenging' under some conditions, purely because of political pressure from one region.

[Apuneger]

I have to agree with what is said above: snow clearing is a core job of the airport operator, yet one that requires significant investments which are probably not worth it from an economical point of view at our latitudes.

You made a valid point indeed. These kind of investments require plenty of cash and are indeed not worth it from an economical point of view. But as I said, maybe it's time to change our mindset, and not look at it from an economical point of view but from an 'avoid total airport shutdown chaos' point of view.

Best regards,
Ivan

[Acid-drop]

If AMS did a better job yesterday, it is mainly, as Stijn says, because of capacity.
They proactively canceled a lot of flights, allowing.better handling of those remaining. Good weather forecast is the key parameter here.
Passenger, you dont like negative comments, ok.
But don't forget a good analysis is always the 1st step of every improvement.
Why do we have to repeat the same every year for the last 10 years. What a lack of respect for the airlines and especially the passengers. All this to save some cost.
All those who mention a mindset issue are 100pc right.

Now passenger, something you're good at:
Why couldnt a pax ask for money compensation ?
Snow is not an exceptional condition, the usual rules could apply?
If that was possible it would fix everything

[Inquirer]

I have to agree with what is said above: snow clearing is a core job of the airport operator, yet one that requires significant investments which are probably not worth it from an economical point of view at our latitudes.

You made a valid point indeed. These kind of investments require plenty of cash and are indeed not worth it from an economical point of view. But as I said, maybe it's time to change our mindset, and not look at it from an economical point of view but from an 'avoid total airport shutdown chaos' point of view.

Best regards,
Ivan

I agree, which is the moment the government should step in and set some minimum reliability targets to be achieved, even under the weather conditions we had yesterday: an independent regulator really is the only one who can change the purely economic paradigm the airport operator lives by, by injecting another parameter into it: a significant punitive fine for non-compliance with whatever reliability target is missed!

Say if BRU would have to pay 1M euro in fines for the too long total closure of the airport yesterday, it might try harder to avoid the same fine next time (which could be in just 2 weeks, for instance!!!) by investing more money in more equipment and/or manpower than it only deems worth for it, today.

Mind you: this is not such a revolutionary proposal as it may seem at first; airlines have been living under something similar for years and have adapted to it without too much problems and with an increased reliability for the traveler as a consequence... maybe it's high time something similar is started for the airport operators too, either by the EC or alternatively by our own government.

[Homo Aeroportus]

Aaah, where are the days when the Belgian State had 25% in the Brussels Airport Company?

They would have taken strong actions against this for sure.


H.A.

[Apuneger]

If AMS did a better job yesterday, it is mainly, as Stijn says, because of capacity.
They proactively canceled a lot of flights, allowing.better handling of those remaining.

Another valid point indeed. Apparently BRU didn't 'close' officially (can anyone confirm?). As a result quite a lot of short-haul flights probably still took off from their origin airport, only to enter the holds near BRU and eventually being diverted.

Could it have been a better choice to effectively close the airport for 1-2 hours and clear ALL runways from snow and ice before reopening?

Best regards,
Ivan

[KriVa]

I wasn't there during the morning shift, but BRU was closed for arrivals until 16z. Not sure when that regulation started, though.

[luchtzak]

BASF pub at Brussels Airport https://twitter.com/toucan75/status/940541370489561088
.

[Passenger]

Some people here say that AMS Amsterdam handled it so much better. I have followed a bit what happened there, both on Sunday and Monday, on LiveATC, FR24, press and forums. And it was pretty much chaos too.

[SFM]

LHR was not pretty either on Sunday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/new ... 02761.html

[Stij]

Some people here say that AMS Amsterdam handled it so much better. I have followed a bit what happened there, both on Sunday and Monday, on LiveATC, FR24, press and forums. And it was pretty much chaos too.

LHR was not pretty either on Sunday.

Just for the record... my post was criticizing at ALL major airports in the region...

Cheers,

Stij

[pilot_gent]

Unfortunately, snow & Belgium is always chaos. Probably this is indeed due to the inexperience and insufficient means that are available at BRU & other airports (management's fault, not the people working that day).

In countries that are used to snow, clearing a runway takes about 10-15 minutes and braking action reports are never outdated.

When braking action starts reducing, planes stop taking off & landing. No planes taking off --> no more parking --> chaos & diversions So the key is to keep the braking action good, very simplified, I know.

In my experience with snow the last years in Belgium I had the following:
- clearing of runway --> +- 45 minutes
- after clearing the runway the braking action is still very low (medium to poor)
- outdated braking action reports and when asking for a current one --> "BRU airport is no longer issueing braking action reports"
- all Belgian international airports closing due to snow.

Very few pilots will try to take-off & land when it is snowing and no reliable braking action report is available...

[lumumba]

I was in the plane at the end on time...
But delayed because no push back!!!!!
Who can believe that....

[Passenger]

I was in the plane at the end on time...
But delayed because no push back!!!!!
Who can believe that....

I can believe that. This airport really is too inferior for you. You really should go to Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam, London and others. And stay away from this third world airport/city/country. There is never never such a problem at other airports.

By the way, who's fault was it that there was no pushback truck? Was it requested on time? Was it requested at all? And how long was the waiting time?

[lumumba]

I was in the plane at the end on time...
But delayed because no push back!!!!!
Who can believe that....

I can believe that. This airport really is too inferior for you. You really should go to Dusseldorf, Paris, Amsterdam, London and others. And stay away from this third world airport/city/country. There is never never such a problem at other airports.

By the way, who's fault was it that there was no pushback truck? Was it requested on time? Was it requested at all? And how long was the waiting time?

I don't know....
But let me explain the situation.
Yesterday I had to fly to Lisboa it was cancelled so today the only solution was to travel to Prague and continue to Lisboa.
But my layover in Prague was only 1hour ...everything was going smoothly so you can imagine my stress missing my flight again.
So yes when you here the pilot saying that we can not go because there is no pushback I'm very frustrated.

[b720]

Belgium is in Northern Europe after all. It snows here almost every year, and sometimes more than once during winter. I would understand that FCO is ill equipped for snow, but BRU???!