KL vs. SN
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KL vs. SN
Dear all, this has been on my mind for a a long time. We are all getting exited when we write about a "new" second hand A330 for SN that might be joining the fleet. Will it be an 8-year old plane, or will we be lucky and will it be an only 6-year old second hand plane. When will the first flight to LAX be launched, or to SIN, crossroads of the world ? In 2022, or maybe 2028 ? In the meantime, our neighbours in NL fly about 70 (seventy !) widebody aircraft (delivered from factory) to places like Edmonton ( who the heck wants to fly to Edmonton ? With all respect for that community ), Guayaquil, Taipei, Osaka and so many other "secondary" cities that one might wonder what we in BE aviation have been doing in the meantime. Boston ? Too risky... JNB ? No plane that can reach it (!). Was SN for too long a government company without ambition or strategy ? Just a question though... Our 2 countries are more or less comparable in size, our destination network and fleet is deplorable compared to theirs. Any thoughts on this ? How did we come to such a different aviation landscape ?
Re: KLM vs. SN
- The Netherlands have a population of 17 million, Belgium 11.N77014 wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 10:17 Dear all, this has been on my mind for a a long time. We are all getting exited when we write about a "new" second hand A330 for SN that might be joining the fleet. Will it be an 8-year old plane, or will we be lucky and will it be an only 6-year old second hand plane. When will the first flight to LAX be launched, or to SIN, crossroads of the world ? In 2022, or maybe 2028 ? In the meantime, our neighbours in NL fly about 70 (seventy !) widebody aircraft (delivered from factory) to places like Edmonton ( who the heck wants to fly to Edmonton ? With all respect for that community ), Guayaquil, Taipei, Osaka and so many other "secondary" cities that one might wonder what we in BE aviation have been doing in the meantime. Boston ? Too risky... JNB ? No plane that can reach it (!). Was SN for too long a government company without ambition or strategy ? Just a question though... Our 2 countries are more or less comparable in size, our destination network and fleet is deplorable compared to theirs. Any thoughts on this ? How did we come to such a different aviation landscape ?
- BRU is in between Paris, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, London and Brussels is well connected by rail with those cities.
- Sabena went bankrupt. Took ages to fill the gap, while KLM could keep on growing.
- Belgians have a fear of being too ambitious???
Correct me if I'm wrong
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shockcooling
- Posts: 230
- Joined: 25 Jan 2007, 17:18
Re: KLM vs. SN
Common, this is just silly...
You are going to compare Shell, ING, Heineken, Philips, Randstad, Unilever, C&A, etc. to it's Belgian counterparts? Except for AB Inbev it's just obvious why you can't compare.
You are going to compare Shell, ING, Heineken, Philips, Randstad, Unilever, C&A, etc. to it's Belgian counterparts? Except for AB Inbev it's just obvious why you can't compare.
Re: KLM vs. SN
When Sabena was a government company, it was flying to a lot of places on all continents (except Oceania). That led probably to its demise. Its successors at Brussels Airlines adopted a more prudent approach, and one should not forget that started from scratch on long-haul.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Re: KLM vs. SN
Solvay is also bigger than any Dutch chemical company. And what about Umicore? Don't be so negative!shockcooling wrote: ↑01 Nov 2017, 12:35 Common, this is just silly...
You are going to compare Shell, ING, Heineken, Philips, Randstad, Unilever, C&A, etc. to it's Belgian counterparts? Except for AB Inbev it's just obvious why you can't compare.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
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jan_olieslagers
- Posts: 3059
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Re: KLM vs. SN
Belgiium is also blessed with various authorities that have a long tradition of thwarting initiatives that do not please them. Talk to Mr. Van Gaever if you want some examples... and I needn't even mention the more recent illustrations.
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shockcooling
- Posts: 230
- Joined: 25 Jan 2007, 17:18
Re: KL vs. SN
It would be interesting to compare them during the last days of Sabena. Any history figures available?
I think KLM was already much bigger than SN 20 or 30 years ago.
I think KLM was already much bigger than SN 20 or 30 years ago.
Re: KL vs. SN
We can understand some "frustrations" when we have experienced a large SN with the intercontinental network that it had from Rio to Tokyo and Cincinatti to Madras ... and the slow progress of Brussels airlines currently even if we can understand the fears of management obviously.
I wonder if Sabena was not older than KLM?
I wonder if Sabena was not older than KLM?
Re: KL vs. SN
No. KLM 1919. Sabena 1923. But the predecessor of Sabena, SNETA, also started in 1919.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Re: KL vs. SN
Years ago KLM had a tv commercial where they claimed to be the first airline in the world. Whether that is true or not, I don't know, but they may very well be the oldest airline in existence today...
Re: KL vs. SN
It is indeed the oldest airline in the world still operating under its original name.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Re: KL vs. SN
Re: KL vs. SN
OK, NL has 17M inhabitants, we 11,5, or about 67%. If we would translate this in aircraft, 70 for KL would mean about 45 for SN. While I agree BRU is in between AMS, PAR, FRA and LON, this could also work in the other direction, by attracting travellers from this huge catchment area. And to be very honest, it was not difficult for Sabena to cover the world, as they did not have to make money, the taxpayer would ultimately pay the bill... So that is not a frustration, more how KL can manage this huge network without being subsidized. I presume indeed more big companies must have activities overthere, seen our country is more a SME market. But still, when you see the next shining 77W joining their fleet, I cannot hide thinking : what do they do that we don't... 
(
(Re: KL vs. SN
Does anyone here know AMS statistics re connecting pax vs total? At BRU, it's about 20% for the first 9 months of 2017.
Re: KL vs. SN
It's not very fair to compare SN to KL, is it?
For starters, the Dutch have a history going way further back than us, Belgians. Remember the Dutch golden century in which the foundation has been made for the later economical prosperity of the Dutch, in a time Belgium as a country didn't even excist. The Dutch are far more mercantile then us, Belgians.
The GDP of The Netherlands is higher than that of Belgium, in both absolute numbers (logical with their 6M+ inhabitants) as per capita and a much lower government cost, resulting in a more entrepreneur friendly environment.
So all in all the economic power of The Netherlands is much bigger then ours.
But more determining in this particular case (aviation as a whole and KL vs SN in particular) is the fact that while Sabena for decades was struggling to reach positive figures and the company couldn't cope with the changed aviation world, KL has been a private company for many years being forced to produce positive figures or just disappear. Another example is the NS vs the NMBS, the first is a partially owned government company making profit, while the latter is a union infested, politically compromised state run company which has never succeeded in reaching black figures.
All this can be traced back to a difference in mentality and history. Belgium for many decades has been a government organized country where large chunks of the economy was influenced by the state while the Netherlands has always been a open, capitalist country where the government was and is far less influential in economical matters.
While Sabena went bankrupt and in it's dying years was heavily hindered by union actions, KL had the opportunity to prosper and grow, building on its huge hub and spoke system. You asked 'who flies to Edmonton?' Well, KL does and accept for Icelandair it is the only European airline doing so forcing people from the Edmonton region to fly KL if they want to go to Europe. And with its vast transfer system KL is a good option to fly beyond Europe as well... For a company like SN flying to an airport like Edmonton would soon turn out to be a suicide mission...
While Sabena disappeared and its succesor had to start from scratch, KL could just continue to grow and grow and grow... While SN is a small fish in a large pond, an easy target for much bigger Germand fish to be consumed, KL was a large fish itself, capable of negotiating a favorable deal with both AF and NW and even sustain that favorable position when the latter was taken over by juggernaut Delta.
No matter what reason you can think of, it would be a wise move by anyone pulling the strings at SN not to look at how KL is doing, but just develop an own product which doesn't have to be able to compete with KL, but return black figures at year's end. And they have done so... Hopefully LH won't kill off SN, but I am afraid it will turn out that way...
For starters, the Dutch have a history going way further back than us, Belgians. Remember the Dutch golden century in which the foundation has been made for the later economical prosperity of the Dutch, in a time Belgium as a country didn't even excist. The Dutch are far more mercantile then us, Belgians.
The GDP of The Netherlands is higher than that of Belgium, in both absolute numbers (logical with their 6M+ inhabitants) as per capita and a much lower government cost, resulting in a more entrepreneur friendly environment.
So all in all the economic power of The Netherlands is much bigger then ours.
But more determining in this particular case (aviation as a whole and KL vs SN in particular) is the fact that while Sabena for decades was struggling to reach positive figures and the company couldn't cope with the changed aviation world, KL has been a private company for many years being forced to produce positive figures or just disappear. Another example is the NS vs the NMBS, the first is a partially owned government company making profit, while the latter is a union infested, politically compromised state run company which has never succeeded in reaching black figures.
All this can be traced back to a difference in mentality and history. Belgium for many decades has been a government organized country where large chunks of the economy was influenced by the state while the Netherlands has always been a open, capitalist country where the government was and is far less influential in economical matters.
While Sabena went bankrupt and in it's dying years was heavily hindered by union actions, KL had the opportunity to prosper and grow, building on its huge hub and spoke system. You asked 'who flies to Edmonton?' Well, KL does and accept for Icelandair it is the only European airline doing so forcing people from the Edmonton region to fly KL if they want to go to Europe. And with its vast transfer system KL is a good option to fly beyond Europe as well... For a company like SN flying to an airport like Edmonton would soon turn out to be a suicide mission...
While Sabena disappeared and its succesor had to start from scratch, KL could just continue to grow and grow and grow... While SN is a small fish in a large pond, an easy target for much bigger Germand fish to be consumed, KL was a large fish itself, capable of negotiating a favorable deal with both AF and NW and even sustain that favorable position when the latter was taken over by juggernaut Delta.
No matter what reason you can think of, it would be a wise move by anyone pulling the strings at SN not to look at how KL is doing, but just develop an own product which doesn't have to be able to compete with KL, but return black figures at year's end. And they have done so... Hopefully LH won't kill off SN, but I am afraid it will turn out that way...
Last edited by Conti764 on 02 Nov 2017, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
Re: KL vs. SN
The biggest mistake was the (deliberate) failure of the 'marriage' between SN and KL. We all know why it was blocked and by who...
We could have a strong Benelux aviation group 'KLM-Sabena' with 2 strong brands flying all over the globe... Instead today we have KL in the hands of AF (let's not forget KL was taken over by AF) and SN on the verge of disappearing since LH is determined to cannibalize SN for its own stupid low-cost adventure Eurowings.
We could have a strong Benelux aviation group 'KLM-Sabena' with 2 strong brands flying all over the globe... Instead today we have KL in the hands of AF (let's not forget KL was taken over by AF) and SN on the verge of disappearing since LH is determined to cannibalize SN for its own stupid low-cost adventure Eurowings.