Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

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Jaguar
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Joined: 29 Nov 2014, 14:21

Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by Jaguar » 23 Jun 2017, 12:39

Brussels Airlines accused of social dumping through wet-lease of CityJet SSJ100s with workers paid below Belgian conditions. Some workers claim to not even receive minimum wage!

[EN]: http://www.brusselstimes.com/brussels/8 ... al-dumping

[FR]: http://www.7sur7.be/7s7/fr/1502/Belgiqu ... rise.dhtml

[NL]: https://www.demorgen.be/economie/-bruss ... 03/1GPR2S/
Last edited by sn26567 on 23 Jun 2017, 17:18, edited 1 time in total.

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 547
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey » 23 Jun 2017, 17:29

Is strongly disagree with the practice and hope the issue is resolved very soon. But what a sensational clickbait headline. Brussels Airlines did not draft the Cityjet / Nobox labour contracts, that is something that is purely the responsibility of the lessor/contractor.

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by fcw » 23 Jun 2017, 17:55

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Jun 2017, 17:29
Is strongly disagree with the practice and hope the issue is resolved very soon. But what a sensational clickbait headline. Brussels Airlines did not draft the Cityjet / Nobox labour contracts, that is something that is purely the responsibility of the lessor/contractor.
CityJet has been convicted for exactly this whilst operating flights for AIR France.
BUT, Air France was also held responsible and convicted by the court.

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey » 23 Jun 2017, 18:21

fcw wrote:
23 Jun 2017, 17:55
CityJet has been convicted for exactly this whilst operating flights for AIR France.
BUT, Air France was also held responsible and convicted by the court.
Please elaborate.

If you refer to the court decision from 2012 (for contracts between 2006 and 2008 in France under Irish law), it is completely different as Cityjet was a 100% daughter of the Air France-KLM holding. Cityjet is not a daughter company of Brussels Airlines / Lufthansa.

shockcooling
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Joined: 25 Jan 2007, 17:18

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by shockcooling » 23 Jun 2017, 19:01

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Jun 2017, 18:21
Please elaborate.

If you refer to the court decision from 2012 (for contracts between 2006 and 2008 in France under Irish law), it is completely different as Cityjet was a 100% daughter of the Air France-KLM holding. Cityjet is not a daughter company of Brussels Airlines / Lufthansa.
And you can elaborate how SN has been accusing Ryanair and co for years for not playing level field, it even went up so far that the Belgian gov started giving 'incentives'. And now SN plays the dumb kid and say they are unaware about these contracts and that Cityjet won the deal after intensive bidding... everybody knows SN knew damn well how they were cheaper. Please elaborate.

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey » 23 Jun 2017, 20:18

What do you want me to elaborate on? In the meantime, it has become a European Law that crew has to be paid according to the rules in the country where they are based. Also, those incentives were not only for SN, but for a number of carriers at BRU. (it was kind of a typical Belgian "compromis", partly because of the subsidies of the walloon government to airlines/airports in their region)

Do you really think that SN has written in the contract that Cityjet has to hire crew via an Irish subcontractor in an effort to bypass Belgian law?

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by sean1982 » 24 Jun 2017, 02:08

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Jun 2017, 20:18
What do you want me to elaborate on? In the meantime, it has become a European Law that crew has to be paid according to the rules in the country where they are based. Also, those incentives were not only for SN, but for a number of carriers at BRU. (it was kind of a typical Belgian "compromis", partly because of the subsidies of the walloon government to airlines/airports in their region)

Do you really think that SN has written in the contract that Cityjet has to hire crew via an Irish subcontractor in an effort to bypass Belgian law?
No, but denying that you don't know how your Irish subcontractor manages to supply crew at a substantial lower price then yourself is just laughable.

The European law that regulates aviation workers have been in place since 2010 btw, and Ryanair has been conform since however SN hasn't changed it's tune. In the mean time they subcontract to the same practice. Hypocritical to say the least!

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by convair » 24 Jun 2017, 10:46

Of course the belgian laws have to be applied to the crews based in Belgium. And it can be assumed that at least some of these crews actually are based in Belgium.

Since this is a wet-lease contract with Cityjet, Cityjet has the prime responsibility to follow that rule.

However, SN should have made it clear to Cityjet that they expect it to be the case. SN says it did put it in writing. And I cannot imagine for a second that they overlooked that: being belgians, they certainly know how eager the unions are to go on strike for any reason, real or invented, so it would have been a big professional mistake not to put it in their contract with Cityjet, and in a clear and strong wording.

Now, let's not forget that any contract that results in the employment of non-belgians is susceptible to give the unions the creeps.

DeltaWiskey
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Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by DeltaWiskey » 24 Jun 2017, 10:48

sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
No, but denying that you don't know how your Irish subcontractor manages to supply crew at a substantial lower price then yourself is just laughable.
So you are implying that British Airways, Ryanair, AF-KLM, etc, control and manage all the (labour) contracts of their subcontractors (such as handlers, ATC, catering providers, check-in & security staff,...)?
sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
The European law that regulates aviation workers have been in place since 2010 btw, and Ryanair has been conform since however SN hasn't changed it's tune. In the mean time they subcontract to the same practice. Hypocritical to say the least!
You are quite contradicting yourself, aren't you. You are saying that SN is currently doing practices that have been illegal since 2010, on purpose. You are also jumping on the same wagon as the clickbait press, as it is not SN, but Cityjet that does not seem to be working according to the law. Cityjet is not owned by SN / LH, Cityjet is just one of the lessors that they use services from.

On a different note, Brussels Airlines in 2017 is a very different company than the Brussels Airlines from 2010. But apparently, you haven't noticed that yet.

Jaguar
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Jaguar » 24 Jun 2017, 11:52

The bad reputation of crewlink nobox dalmac is known to everyone.
It is to my opinion indeed prime responsablility for Cityjet to apply correct outsourcing procedures and in choosing
nobox they couldve assumed the worst.
Not only have they been recruiting since november until now. They simply cant find decent candidates at those conditions. They habe upped the salary package a few times to attract people.
SN is aware of the poor quality of crews they hire (language skills especially) but hey u cant get everything if u pay peanuts?! They even hire people who have been refused several times to become sn cabin crew
The creWs have been paid below minimum wage, their contract is very shady, they are not properly informed and dont even get a payslip.
It is them who contacted the sn unions as a cry for help.
Yes its poorly paid but it should at least be at belgian minimum wade.
SN can blame Cityjet and then nobox, but im am pretty sure they were well aware of the shady things going on the past few months.
Meanwhile nobox and cityjet make their profits on the back of belgian workers and offcourse sn
makes less expenses. So profit can go up.
Id say shame on all of them!

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by sean1982 » 24 Jun 2017, 13:52

DeltaWiskey wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 10:48
sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
No, but denying that you don't know how your Irish subcontractor manages to supply crew at a substantial lower price then yourself is just laughable.
So you are implying that British Airways, Ryanair, AF-KLM, etc, control and manage all the (labour) contracts of their subcontractors (such as handlers, ATC, catering providers, check-in & security staff,...)?
sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
The European law that regulates aviation workers have been in place since 2010 btw, and Ryanair has been conform since however SN hasn't changed it's tune. In the mean time they subcontract to the same practice. Hypocritical to say the least!
You are quite contradicting yourself, aren't you. You are saying that SN is currently doing practices that have been illegal since 2010, on purpose. You are also jumping on the same wagon as the clickbait press, as it is not SN, but Cityjet that does not seem to be working according to the law. Cityjet is not owned by SN / LH, Cityjet is just one of the lessors that they use services from.

On a different note, Brussels Airlines in 2017 is a very different company than the Brussels Airlines from 2010. But apparently, you haven't noticed that yet.
There is a difference between managing and controlling or knowing how exactly they are able to offer your the package deal. Now saying, it's not us ... it's cityjet is hypocritical. Different company to 2010 indeed :roll:

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b.lufthansa
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Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by b.lufthansa » 26 Jul 2017, 22:28

Any improvement on the subject ?

Are the Cityjet flight attendants still milked ?

Have the correct documents been used ?

Correct pay checks ?

Dwarsligger
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Joined: 07 Aug 2017, 12:49

Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by Dwarsligger » 07 Aug 2017, 15:00

AFAIK I was told that BruArws has stipulated in its wetlease that operator City jet should staff be Brussels based and according to Belgian legal dispositions
AFAIK city jet uses nobox to hire staff on a temp CDI determined term contract as it cannot be assured of continuing the operation after the initial 2 yr period of the wetlease agmt
AFAIK allegedly there is a connection between the nobox and city jet dmanagement
AFAIK nobox has chosen the easy way out: not to establish a subsidiary as required by law nor to appoint legal representative as required by most social secretariats, moreover they used contracts written in English (illegal by belgian law) with incorrect terms, transgression of the Cao, incorrect salaries, incorrect holiday calculation etc... Moreover an illegal trial period was included.
The contracts were either never signed or were late.
AFAIK Nobox never responded to staff queries and refused to talk to union representatives.
AFAIK nobox has registered working staff late in Dimona the official social security database by at least 7 weeks
AFAIK Nobox has issued payslips that contain following errors no identification of the employer incorrect identification of paritair comité incorrect identification of the employee quite apart from the fact that the wage calculation on the payslip is incorrect, this means that employees have no guarantee that social security contributions pension contributions and tax deductions have been made let alone have been paid to the relevant public service
AFAIK nobox has laid off starting in July staff that protested this state of affairs. Laid off staff have to date not received the legally required documents from Nobox for their dismissal

Dwarsligger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Dwarsligger » 07 Aug 2017, 15:10

sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
... Cut...
The European law that regulates aviation workers have been in place since 2010 btw, and Ryanair has been conform since however SN hasn't changed it's tune. In the mean time they subcontract to the same practice. Hypocritical to say the least!
Ryanair doesn't comply with EUregulation and is protected by the Irish gvt all staff is on Irish contracts AFAIK and is stationed off base

Stij
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Location: Belgium

Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by Stij » 07 Aug 2017, 15:16

Welcome to Luchtzak Dwarsligger.

If true, very worrying information you have there...

Cheers,

Stij

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by Boeing767copilot » 07 Aug 2017, 16:02

From the Nobox website:

Our Story
Based in Dublin, Ireland, Nobox is an initiative of Crewlink, Dalmac Recruitment & Aviation Services and Workforce International Contractors. Our companies have been providing HR services for over 25 years to the aviation, medical, transportation, hospitality, IT and language sectors. Together we are the biggest supplier of customer service staff to Europe’s largest airline – employing over 4500 people directly.
We have pooled our experience, expertise and talent together to offer Nobox HR Outsourcing Solutions to many industries across Europe, The Middle East, North Africa, Asia and America.

Working closely with our clients, we develop and implement bespoke and cost effective HR Outsourcing Solutions.

Nobox is an independent, 100% Irish owned business, managed by a team of 4.

Frank Whelan – Director
Anne McCrudden – Director
Ryan Moffett – Director
Judy Byrne – Director

DeltaWiskey
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Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by DeltaWiskey » 07 Aug 2017, 17:27

Apparently, the press article about the social dumping was released by a syndicate partner the day before an union-employer meeting. The purpose of the article was not to improve the situation of the affected nobox/cityjet-employees, but to gain some extra negotiating power in the meeting. It failed to do so however.

I really hope the situation is resolved quickly and I also hope that Brussels Airlines will put some (more) pressure on cityjet to solve the issues. (I think there is a clause in that contract that prohibits cityjet from subcontracting work that falls within the direct scope of the lease contract, i.e. provision of aircraft and crew. If cityjet sunbcontracts flight and/or cabin crew, they might even be in breach of contract with SN...)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2017

Post by Poiu » 07 Aug 2017, 20:41

Dwarsligger wrote:
07 Aug 2017, 15:10
sean1982 wrote:
24 Jun 2017, 02:08
... Cut...
The European law that regulates aviation workers have been in place since 2010 btw, and Ryanair has been conform since however SN hasn't changed it's tune. In the mean time they subcontract to the same practice. Hypocritical to say the least!
Ryanair doesn't comply with EUregulation and is protected by the Irish gvt all staff is on Irish contracts AFAIK and is stationed off base
An Irish contract is legal! The EU (eu465/2012) only stipulates that social security has to be paid in the country in which the crewmember is based. Income tax has to be paid according to the dual taxation agreements between Ireland and country of residence/base. (eg. Belgian residents based in BRU pay Belgian social security, 13%, and Irish income tax, 20% below 34000€ and 40% above)

Dwarsligger
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Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by Dwarsligger » 08 Aug 2017, 12:47

That is circumventing the law, and thus illegal

sean1982
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Re: Social dumping at Cityjet operating for Brussels Airlines ?

Post by sean1982 » 08 Aug 2017, 12:54

Dwarsligger wrote:
08 Aug 2017, 12:47
That is circumventing the law, and thus illegal
Zucht :roll: .... follow a course on european law before you believe the crap your union boss whispers in your ear. It is legal and is used extensively in various sectors around europe!

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