Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Ansett
Posts: 521
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by Ansett »

Very interesting indeed.
However, the 20,000 pax originating in BRU and flying to LIM each year, via AMS and CDG, will probably go on doing so, since direct flights continue do be much more expensive than travelling with a connection, although it is more expensive for the airline. You must pay more for the shorter travel time. Logical and Illogical at the same time.
As regards the possible (SN) flight to LIM, I would suggest to operate it via CTG which is becoming an increasinly popular destination. I would not suggest a triangular flight, but a BRU CTG LIM / LIM CTG BRU. Since the flight time from CTG to LIM is just under three hours, the crew would have a lay-over in CTG and then fly CTG LIM CTG with a second lay-over in CTG before flying back to BRU. Too expensive for the airline ?
Last edited by Ansett on 08 May 2017, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

AIRMARSHAL
Posts: 49
Joined: 06 Jul 2016, 19:22

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by AIRMARSHAL »

I was just wondering if there exists a list with BRU airport departing passengers' most popular (multiple stop) long haul final destinations?

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36545
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by sn26567 »

Brussels Airlines denied to be interested in flights to Peru. There is indeed a confusion in the original Peruvian article, which writes Brussels Airlines in the title, but discusses further about Brussels Airport.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 6697
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by Passenger »

When I ask Google to translate this article from December 2016, this is what they say:

"...The airline Brussels Airlines, of the Belgian capital, has shown interest in establishing a direct flight service between Peru and Belgium, as there is currently no flight to our country or another South American site, reported the Commercial Office Of Peru in Brussels (OCEX Brussels). According to the OCEX Brussels, representatives of Brussels Airport already talked with executives of the airlines Latam and Avianca to realize this possibility in the medium term. In that sense, he said that the OCEX Brussels is coordinating the visit of the senior managers of the airport to Lima in February 2017 to meet with the authorities of the Ministry of Foreign Trade and Tourism (Mincetur) and the Ministry of Transport and Communications ( MTC). According to Brussels Airport, there are an average of 20,000 passengers per year bound for Peru who are required to take flights with airplane changes or to land at airports in Amsterdam (the Netherlands) or Paris (France). "The top management of the Brussels airport believes that because of its privileged geographic location, many Belgian and other European travelers would use Brussels to have a direct flight service to Lima," he said. It should be noted that OCEX Brussels has been investigating for some time the possibility of direct flights from Brussels to Peru, in order to boost the arrival of Belgian tourists to our country. In addition to providing a greater offer of air cargo service for Northern Europe of both fresh and hydrobiological products. "Greater accessibility would also facilitate the internationalization of Peruvian SMEs that can visit different European markets from the city of Brussels, located near the main European industrial centers," he emphasized..."

20.000 pax each year out of BRU to Lima? Add a few thousand who take a train to AMS or CDG, and with a superb market share of 50%, Brussels Airlines could have some 200 pax/week. That's far too little for an own flight, three times a week (needed to have Business Class passengers ans limit crew costs). Thus: not possible.

It's different for Brussels Airport: Latam or Avianca could extend one of their intra-Europe flights to BRU. Without a transfer, a flight Brussels-Paris-Lima could compete to KLM or Iberia. And that's indeed what the article seems to be about: to connect Brussels to Peru. Of course Peru-Tourism (OCEX Brussels) tells their home press that Brussels Airlines is interested. That's what tourism offices abroad do = defend their station. But the article actually goes more about Brussels Airport, not Brussels Airlines.

sn-remember
Posts: 847
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by sn-remember »

That's far too little for an own flight, three times a week (needed to have Business Class passengers ans limit crew costs). Thus: not possible.
Right.. so there will be no bru-lim flight operated by sn.
On the other hand one could very well imagine a bru-pty flight operated by sn.
Indeed from pty, you have tons of ongoing destinations operated by copa star partner (although we know they will partnet with any carrier).
I know lh just started the flight but I believe there is a market for sn too. Just like you have pty-cdg and pty-ams twice daily flights. And I know also that tp had to cancel the triangular flight lis-bog-pty-lis. I think a torough market analysis will show the potential of a possible bru-pty route.
I think an 11 hr flight is the limit for the A333 last iterations, maybe there would be some load restrictions on the west-bound leg ?
Idem for the sfo flight which is in the cards ...

User avatar
cathay belgium
Posts: 2255
Joined: 18 Aug 2008, 00:17
Location: Lommel-Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,
Just back from PTY on LH Cityline A343 !
Plane was half empty on both legs !
Left from our gate KLM B777 and on the right Iberia A332,..
SN to PTY? forgot about it please !
There is no market for it !
SN is LH so connect in FRA !

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E140-E190E2

User avatar
luchtzak
Posts: 11438
Joined: 18 Sep 2002, 00:00
Location: Hofstade, Zemst - Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by luchtzak »

sn26567 wrote:
09 May 2017, 00:25
Brussels Airlines denied to be interested in flights to Peru. There is indeed a confusion in the original Peruvian article, which writes Brussels Airlines in the title, but discusses further about Brussels Airport.

sn-remember
Posts: 847
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by sn-remember »

cathay belgium wrote:
11 May 2017, 18:53
Hi,
Just back from PTY on LH Cityline A343 !
Plane was half empty on both legs !
Left from our gate KLM B777 and on the right Iberia A332,..
SN to PTY? forgot about it please !
There is no market for it !
SN is LH so connect in FRA !

CXB
Hardly a 'torough market analysis' ..
But let's leave it so

User avatar
A318
Posts: 1723
Joined: 13 Aug 2003, 00:00
Location: Between here and there
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by A318 »

So many routes to LIM already from BRU with just 1 stop:
Delta via ATL
United via IAH
KLM via AMS
Air France via CDG
British Airways via LGW
Iberia/LATAM via MAD
Air Europa via MAD
Avianca via MAD
Condor via FRA
If they want to be successful on that route they have to be cheaper then the rest since it is an expensive route.
Probably a codeshare with LATAM or Avianca.
A Whole Different Animal

sn-remember
Posts: 847
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by sn-remember »

From pty codesharing with copa opens connectivity to following markets (not exhaustive) up with no significant overhead : pty,sjo,mga,gua,ctg,mde,bog,clo,uio,gye,gps,lim,iqt.
So basically Peru,Equator,Colombia and the southerly part of centralAmerica.
Don't tell me there is not a potential market for a daily A332 from bru ?
But don't take me wrong, I am not saying it's a priority.
Yields would be low. Maybe a route for Eurowings Belgium ?
Along with other possible Caribbean destinations ?
Just reflecting ...
Last edited by sn-remember on 11 May 2017, 23:52, edited 1 time in total.

nordikcam
Posts: 1047
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by nordikcam »

sn-remember wrote:
11 May 2017, 23:38
From pty codesharing with copa opens connectivity to following markets (not exhaustive) up with no significant overhead : pty,sjo,mga,gua,ctg,mde,bog,clo,uio,gye,gps,lim,iqt.
Don't tell me there is not a potential market for a daily A332 from bru ?
But don't take me wrong, I am not saying it's a priority.
Yields would be low. Maybe a route for Eurowings Belgium ?
Along with other possible Caribbean destinations ?
Just reflecting ...


I completely agree...lot of potential but not a priority...and HAV in the Caribbean.

User avatar
cathay belgium
Posts: 2255
Joined: 18 Aug 2008, 00:17
Location: Lommel-Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

I agree one retour isn't a market analysis but I talked with some people also, planes has mostly like these LF, as you see LH can't fill it better then this why should they start it direct from BRU also.
We're leaving BRU also on that plane so without us its even less,...
My fare was 360 euro and with KLM on the same fares or even less it is nuts to start it new!
Copa might be *A member, KLM is also heavy COPA partner ! So COPA is not the best partner ... United is also on the market btw,... Just one stop from BRU,...
Focus on leisure flight as eurowings will be ;)
LH=SN so why compete your own ?

Explore your core business Africa and with India now... Guess New destinations need to fill gaps and make better networks instead of new markets,.. Dallas,Miami,Houston,Boston,Detroit are alle better matches for connections with a focus on Africa... These won't need An extra stop in the USA ...
We will see ... But if there will be a Latin America flight it won't be SN operated my guess...

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E140-E190E2

sn-remember
Posts: 847
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by sn-remember »

@nordikam
I am a big advocate of a daily bru-nas-hav route. I think it could work well provided codesharing with UP and B6 to Florida is provided at nas. Nas has pre-clearance facility to the US and offers easy connectivity to mia,fll and mco. Nas is underserved from Europe, in fact nobody serves the route since BA pulled out. And it's not too low yielding destination. On the other hand HAV is low yield but could eventually sustain a daily A333 combined with nas/Florida me think. But we are drifting from the original topic ...
..
@cathayBelgium
I agree sn should focus on their core business and develop it further with ventures in India, maybe PEK (a second flight) and NAmerica besides of course Africa (which has room for developments)
But the low yield market is what eurowing is targeting and route developments to Caribbean or CentralAmerica should not be discarded.
About the lh flight to pty you must give it time. It's just starting and lh is maybe not the appropriate tool to bite into this market. Don't forget they also have a daily flight to bog which was downgauged from A346 to a343 to provide for the introduction of the pty route. DE used to serve pty before lh entered the market, not sure which carrier is best qualified here ...
And as you say, no need to compete on the same market when it's not rife enough for 2 sister carriers. However you must understand that bru-pty-XXX will always be a winner compared to bru-fra-pty-XXX.

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 1774
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by lumumba »

Brussels Airlines needs to develop there hub with offering more European destinations that's also an import link to the other side.
Last edited by lumumba on 12 May 2017, 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Stij
Posts: 2232
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by Stij »

lumumba wrote:
12 May 2017, 09:03
Brussels Airlines needs to develop there hub with offering more European destinations that's also an import link to the there side.
Agreed!

LJ
Posts: 876
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Heiloo NL

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by LJ »

Does anyone know the yield of those 20,000 passengers which go to Lima? If they're all leisure passengers travelling on very cheap fares than I wonder why one would start LIM. BA cited low yields as the primary reason to make LIM seasonal (if it returns at all). Looks something for Norwegian to fly.
sn-remember wrote:
11 May 2017, 23:38
Don't tell me there is not a potential market for a daily A332 from bru ?
But don't take me wrong, I am not saying it's a priority.
Yields would be low. Maybe a route for Eurowings Belgium ?
The PTY market is crowded. TP axed PTY only after one year. Now LH may have a go (after it postponed introduction a few times). KL has the advantage of having a relatively high O&D and getting a lot of connecting pasengers to Asia (especially Manila). Hence why it's glad EK didn't start their flights to PTY. SN doesn't have this luxury.
sn-remember wrote:
12 May 2017, 00:37
About the lh flight to pty you must give it time. It's just starting and lh is maybe not the appropriate tool to bite into this market.


AFAIK the introduction of PTY was delayed several times and thus LH doesn't have many excuses if it performs poorly in PTY.
sn-remember wrote:
11 May 2017, 23:38
So basically Peru,Equator,Colombia and the southerly part of centralAmerica.
First, what's the O&D between Brussels and those destinations? What's the yield and how would you compete with IB, UX, KL. AF and LH? Without any O&D you'll attract low yield only. Moreover, you forget that one can go to AMS or CDG by train and then take the plane to PTY, thus why would one opt for Brussels? Finally, combining PTY with another destination in the Carribean is not a good idea if you want to make it a success. Ask TP how it went and AFAIK Turkish isn't doing great either on their PTY route.

Ansett
Posts: 521
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by Ansett »

First there seemed to be a misunderstanding : BRU (the airport) wanted to attrack an airlink between BRU and LIM (or LIM and BRU). Some interpreted it as Brussels Airlines mulling over such an operation. Misunderstandind apparently. It led however to an interesting discussion whether SN could fly to LIM and would it be profitable. None of us really know. As I said before, I think a BRU-CTG-LIM-CTG-BRU could work with the proper aircraft and 5th freedom traffic rights between CTG-LIM (codeshare with Avianca).
Some suggested PTY instead. Yes and no. Copa Air is willing to co-operate with all airlines and this can be a win-win situation since Copa offers many connections at PTY.

However, LH flies already to PTY and this might indeed be enough for the LH Group.
Flying from BRU to PTY via the US (DL and United) is a no-go for me (transfers in the US are too cumborsome). The same goes for BA via LGW. Imho, BA, DL and UA are also rather below average airlines.
This leaves us with LH, AF, KL, IB, UX and Condor. Probably enough for a market which is getting saturated.
But there remains some "territory" to be explored in Latin America, but LH will not give it to SN.

What's left for SN ? I am tempted to say Libreville and focusing again on SN's niche market, Central and West Africa. Again,I think LH will not let SN expand much more in Africa. It will want to keep East and Southern Africa for itself and LX.

Delhi might be a good option,if BOM proves to be profitable (the first load figures are optimistic, but let's us not forget the impact of low launching fares). However, SN should really endeaver to cut connection times at BRU between India and the USA.

Opening new routes to the USA should, imo, be put on hold, because of Trump's poilicies (laptops for instance) and also Europeans becoming more reluctanct to travel to the US because of Trump's policies, and Americans being reluctant to travel to Europe because of security concerns.

Some members on the forum seem to be concerned by flying to destinations which are low yield. Except for a few destinations in Africa (and for how long ?), most other destinations are low yield. Competition from full service and LCCs make yields go down nearly everywhere.

Consequently, I only see two new possible routes for SN in the near future : Libreville and Delhi.
And the (late) evening flight to New York. If SN does not decide to operate it, I could very well imagine a competitor stepping in.

LJ
Posts: 876
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Heiloo NL

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by LJ »

Ansett wrote:
12 May 2017, 23:49
As I said before, I think a BRU-CTG-LIM-CTG-BRU could work with the proper aircraft and 5th freedom traffic rights between CTG-LIM (codeshare with Avianca).
Why? The market at CTG is not big and KL is already there. Onestops to LIM are doomed to fail given the offereings of the competition.
Ansett wrote:
12 May 2017, 23:49
Some members on the forum seem to be concerned by flying to destinations which are low yield. Except for a few destinations in Africa (and for how long ?), most other destinations are low yield. Competition from full service and LCCs make yields go down nearly everywhere.
It's not a big problem when there isn't much competition and you have some business ties, but if you already have a few airlines flying ot it and have virtually no business ties, then you have to consider if you want to waste resources for such a destination. There may be other valid reasons to start the flight anyway (KL flies to CTG as it needs to make a stop between BOG and AMS and CTG was a good alternative to CLO despite CTG being low yield).

DannyVDB
Posts: 855
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by DannyVDB »

Hi Ansett,

I see the opportunities and plans of LH for SN a bit different.

I think before they decided (that deision was certainly not only a decision of SN, but rather SN/LH) to go to Mumbai, they had the start of Libreville/Lagos in mind. I think they chose Mumbai now in order not to wait too long to fill the void left by Jet Airways, the market already existed and was more 'easy' to 'grab' instantly.

So now, in my opinion, Libreville/Lagos can/will come back on the table. This has not only to do with the fact that SN has extensive experience and a good name in Africa, but also with the fact that SN (in BRU) is better positioned between AMS and CDG from where AF/KL are the main competitors for the LH group with regard to Africa. I think the reasoning is that it is easier to attract pax from the African communities from e.g. Paris region, Northern France, NL ... than from ZHR, FRA or MUC.

I also see some other opportunities: new routes and improving existing routes. Currently the situation in Burundi and Congo are not so good (political and economic instability - e.g. our projects in Burundi are stalled because of this), but once this changes again I see more frequencies to Bujumbura, more direct flights to Kinshasa. In the meantime they can already reorganise the flights to Dakar which is highly successful (the region is also more stable): they tested it during the winter season and I can see a development towards e.g. 7 direct flights to Dakar and 4 weekly flights Conakry/Banjul.

Furthermore I would not exclude the return to Bamako and even the start to destinations like Bangui, N'Djamena and Niamey ... in competition with ... AF/KL. Again for the same reason: there is where they can win part of the market, which is more difficult to do from FRA ...

Finally for Africa I eventually see in the future return to South-Africa although I think that will be rather as part of additional destinations that are of interest to Thomas Cook, rather than their 'regular' offer. And besides these 'regular' African destinations that is the second area where I see SN longhaul growing.

They (SN/Thomas Cook) will investigate the possibilities to start long haul flights for the tourist market in different parts of the world. In Africa I can see some potential (for 1-2/w) to destinations such as Mombasa (but currently unstable), Zanzibar, Windhoek, Cape Town, Seychelles, Kilimanjaro. I also see some potential destinations in the Carribean and Mexico, plus Miami/Orlando, even Las Vegas. The same for Asia: Phuket, Bali, Malé, Colombo. In total it would not be more than 7 flights / week (rather 5 is you see current offer by TUI which is much bigger). Pax from TC are going now via Germany (Condor) and would rather leave then from BRU.

The third pillar for expansion would be to the US/Canada. First I see both Washington and Toronto becoming daily and for Washington year-around. Second I see Boston (stronghold for research) and San Francisco (very important destination business-wise and for tourism) being added. I also still see a second daily from Newark by UA. I agree that USA is maybe later on the agenda due to the current difficulties/uncertainties. But it will come back.

I also can see SN eventually in Delhi, but only if there is a very good opportunity and Mumbai develops well.

In summary, I see SN long haul growing from 10 to 15 planes. Not because we want it, but because it is a logic commercial choice/opportunity for the LH group which makes sense from BRU to get hold on pax that otherwise would rather go AF/KL.

Danny

nordikcam
Posts: 1047
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines to Lima?

Post by nordikcam »

DannyVDB wrote:
13 May 2017, 09:01

They (SN/Thomas Cook) will investigate the possibilities to start long haul flights for the tourist market in different parts of the world. In Africa I can see some potential (for 1-2/w) to destinations such as Mombasa (but currently unstable), Zanzibar, Windhoek, Cape Town, Seychelles, Kilimanjaro. I also see some potential destinations in the Carribean and Mexico, plus Miami/Orlando, even Las Vegas. The same for Asia: Phuket, Bali, Malé, Colombo. In total it would not be more than 7 flights / week (rather 5 is you see current offer by TUI which is much bigger). Pax from TC are going now via Germany (Condor) and would rather leave then from BRU.
Nice analysis ! Interesting developments and I hope they will come true. But in the case of cooperation with TC on the long haul flights from where will the planes come?

Post Reply