Hi everybody,
SN-pilots seem to be unhappy becouse they are looking and comparing too much to pilots of other companies. I know the pilots in the army (C130) also have periods of tremendously workpressure...when flighthours are not to be counted... with no Union to come up for their rights. But they don't complain, they like flying as it is their passionated life. And their wages cannot be compaired with the loan of a commercial line pilot. Ok, they didn't have to pay for for the licence...but they will never earn a nice loan. But they don't get upset by this idea; flying is in their blood. I think SN pilots are more businessmen then pilot.
Again the pilots,SABENA was enough!!!!!!
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Yes, my dream was also to become a pilot. If I had the possibity to fly I wouldn't care so much about the salery I get. I would be so happy that my dream finaly came thru, but because of a colorblindness problem this dream will never come thru! I would just do anything to be able to fly!!
So SN pilots, you also had a passion about flying once when you started to fly! Be happy already with the fact that you are flying because many pilots in Belgium are still without a job, especially those who finished their education the last years!
So SN pilots, you also had a passion about flying once when you started to fly! Be happy already with the fact that you are flying because many pilots in Belgium are still without a job, especially those who finished their education the last years!
Hi everybody.
Hi Waldova I think this is not the good reason you don't live from pure water love and a passion.You have to earn money to live for you and your famillie.I also cannot become a pilot for the same reason but this has nothing to do. I'm sure if I had to fly everyday than it become also a job.
Regards
Patrice
P.S:Waldova you can fly with a U.L.M like me it's very very funny.
Hi Waldova I think this is not the good reason you don't live from pure water love and a passion.You have to earn money to live for you and your famillie.I also cannot become a pilot for the same reason but this has nothing to do. I'm sure if I had to fly everyday than it become also a job.
Regards
Patrice
P.S:Waldova you can fly with a U.L.M like me it's very very funny.
Hasta la victoria siempre.
Something we only can understand...
Yes, MR you are right, but now little loan comes for his little bean?MR wrote:Hi everybody, ...their wages cannot be compaired with the loan of a commercial line pilot. ... I think SN pilots are more businessmen then pilot.
'For what, hears what' as we say in Flanders.
Why should belgian pilots not want more, in a coumtry where we have more ministers per square kilometer, than the Vatican has cardinals per square kilometer. It worked before, why should it not work now?
Because, Mr, the sons and daughters of ministers become minister too, why should the sons and daughters of pilots have less than their fathers?
Is it a matter of education?
a few remarks
1. When I read the article in Le Soir, with which everything started i immediately got the feeling that this was NOT leaked by one of the pilots but rather by our management. We would never refer to ourselves as sabena pilots (no offense meant) as we always were and still are DAT pilots. I don't know Anita van Hove but at least she seems to say what we think and she reported after the article in le Soir. SO if the management wants to put us in the picture as the bad guys again then i find that very childish and infuriating
2. There are a lot of airforce pilots flying with us as most of them have to go on pension quite early and they then change over to civil aviation. Yes they get paid less but how much do they gain with not having to pay their own training and having a pension when most of us have finally paid our loans. Some of them, but not all I have to stress out, are getting their pensions and their DAT salaries so you won't hear them complain that's for sure. I understand that military flying and commercial flying are not the same at all and i completely agree that the human body can't support the sort of flying they do for a very long time but don't compare the 2 salaries as they have absolutely nothing in common.
3. Most pilots (even at DAT) love to fly more than anything else in the world. But our management is doing its utmost best to destroy that motivation. I've heard copilots who're just flying with us for less than 2 years say how they are dissapointed about the conditions and how they will try to get away as soon as possible. Those guys were the most optimistic and eager guys i've ever flown with when they started. Way to go management.
4. I don't think our union delegates are in favour of a strike because they are too intelligent to start using those big guns immediately. I've heard them state clearly that they do NOT want to hurt the passengers in ANY way. Their problems (and ours) are with the management not our pax. We all do our best to make our passengers happy and get them to fly with us again so going on strike would not be very commercial of us would it now. There are more than enough ways to hurt our management without the passengers feeling any of it and from what I heard from our delegates that is what we'll be doing.
So if people start saying it's or fault passengers are getting scared please take it up with the management because they are responsible for this, nt us.
This is your captain singing.
1. When I read the article in Le Soir, with which everything started i immediately got the feeling that this was NOT leaked by one of the pilots but rather by our management. We would never refer to ourselves as sabena pilots (no offense meant) as we always were and still are DAT pilots. I don't know Anita van Hove but at least she seems to say what we think and she reported after the article in le Soir. SO if the management wants to put us in the picture as the bad guys again then i find that very childish and infuriating
2. There are a lot of airforce pilots flying with us as most of them have to go on pension quite early and they then change over to civil aviation. Yes they get paid less but how much do they gain with not having to pay their own training and having a pension when most of us have finally paid our loans. Some of them, but not all I have to stress out, are getting their pensions and their DAT salaries so you won't hear them complain that's for sure. I understand that military flying and commercial flying are not the same at all and i completely agree that the human body can't support the sort of flying they do for a very long time but don't compare the 2 salaries as they have absolutely nothing in common.
3. Most pilots (even at DAT) love to fly more than anything else in the world. But our management is doing its utmost best to destroy that motivation. I've heard copilots who're just flying with us for less than 2 years say how they are dissapointed about the conditions and how they will try to get away as soon as possible. Those guys were the most optimistic and eager guys i've ever flown with when they started. Way to go management.
4. I don't think our union delegates are in favour of a strike because they are too intelligent to start using those big guns immediately. I've heard them state clearly that they do NOT want to hurt the passengers in ANY way. Their problems (and ours) are with the management not our pax. We all do our best to make our passengers happy and get them to fly with us again so going on strike would not be very commercial of us would it now. There are more than enough ways to hurt our management without the passengers feeling any of it and from what I heard from our delegates that is what we'll be doing.
So if people start saying it's or fault passengers are getting scared please take it up with the management because they are responsible for this, nt us.
This is your captain singing.
Hi SN30952.
No there are other jobs where you are earning
less than before.Also comercial aviation is gooing to change a lot (there is a very interesting artical in La libre belgique of today)the competition will be very hard.Also the low cost will take a part of the cake.
Regards
Patrice
P.S:you have to go to sleep no!
No there are other jobs where you are earning
less than before.Also comercial aviation is gooing to change a lot (there is a very interesting artical in La libre belgique of today)the competition will be very hard.Also the low cost will take a part of the cake.
Regards
Patrice
P.S:you have to go to sleep no!
Hasta la victoria siempre.
I never understood people compalining about salary: if you think you are under-paid, just leave the company.
SN BA will know very well way they shouldn't pay high salaries. It is a simple law of demand and offer, there appear to be enough pilots around willing to fly at that salary. If the job market for pilots picks up, and enough pilots leave, they will have no other option than raising the salaries. For the current moaners at SNBA, one advice: just seek a job abroad. I did the same, I worked in banking in Brussels at a shit-wage, I could stay on and complain about everybody and everything, or just leave Belgium, and was able to more than triple my Belgian salary. But off course, I can hear the story already " my wife doesn't want to go because she doesn't want to live away from her mom, and I still have my golf club memebership, and I can't buy a house with a garden abroad ..." and all the typical Belgian provincial bulls**t ... Seems SNBA pilots are average Belgians: provincial moaners.
SN BA will know very well way they shouldn't pay high salaries. It is a simple law of demand and offer, there appear to be enough pilots around willing to fly at that salary. If the job market for pilots picks up, and enough pilots leave, they will have no other option than raising the salaries. For the current moaners at SNBA, one advice: just seek a job abroad. I did the same, I worked in banking in Brussels at a shit-wage, I could stay on and complain about everybody and everything, or just leave Belgium, and was able to more than triple my Belgian salary. But off course, I can hear the story already " my wife doesn't want to go because she doesn't want to live away from her mom, and I still have my golf club memebership, and I can't buy a house with a garden abroad ..." and all the typical Belgian provincial bulls**t ... Seems SNBA pilots are average Belgians: provincial moaners.
you are right of course for some of our pilots. But it is a fact that you need to take your family with you wich isn't always very easy as most of our wives have jobs.
Second the job market for pilots is not completely open yet, most of us need a lot more hours before we will even be considered for an interview (I'm talking about the copilots here). Finding a job as a pilot is not always as easy as just writing a company and saying: please hire me because i want to fly for you. And going over to corporate flying isn't always the best way to go when you're in airline operations.
But all in all you are right and most pilots at dat are writing away. At least the Belgian Post is earning a lot of money on our pilots
I for one am waiting for a reply from a couple of companies, one of which should be positive relatively soon (being frenchspeaking with a reasonable grasp of english seems to be liked) the hr-manager also said I wasn't the first DAT pilot to apply.
So yes a lot of us are provincial (thankfully SNBA is a regional carrier but it seems we're going to open our horizons.
Second the job market for pilots is not completely open yet, most of us need a lot more hours before we will even be considered for an interview (I'm talking about the copilots here). Finding a job as a pilot is not always as easy as just writing a company and saying: please hire me because i want to fly for you. And going over to corporate flying isn't always the best way to go when you're in airline operations.
But all in all you are right and most pilots at dat are writing away. At least the Belgian Post is earning a lot of money on our pilots
I for one am waiting for a reply from a couple of companies, one of which should be positive relatively soon (being frenchspeaking with a reasonable grasp of english seems to be liked) the hr-manager also said I wasn't the first DAT pilot to apply.
So yes a lot of us are provincial (thankfully SNBA is a regional carrier
but it seems we're going to open our horizons.
Last edited by olympus on 31 Aug 2004, 10:03, edited 1 time in total.
I've just a simple question, which is a bit off topic sorry 
Do companies still pay for the type rating of the pilots or do they (the pilots) need to have the appropriate type rating when joining the airline.
I mean IF a DAT pilot with an ARJ type rating will leave the fleet to join a copany will it be able to join a company which doesn't fly the ARJ's ?
I know that the airlines payed for all thoses things in the past, but I'm not sure whether they still do it
Best Regards
Chris
8)
Do companies still pay for the type rating of the pilots or do they (the pilots) need to have the appropriate type rating when joining the airline.
I mean IF a DAT pilot with an ARJ type rating will leave the fleet to join a copany will it be able to join a company which doesn't fly the ARJ's ?
I know that the airlines payed for all thoses things in the past, but I'm not sure whether they still do it
Best Regards
Chris
8)
Hi all,
I worked with Denim Air in Spain for two years, where they operate for Air Nostrum. I honestly don´t know what the pilot salaries are, but the workload is quite high. Most flights are an average of 40 minutes, ranging between 15 minutes PMI-IBZ to 1.30 hours VLC-BIO. Some international routes are longer (BCN-TRN 1.45-2.00 hours with F50/DH3). Lots of short sectors mean lots of legs in one day and the equal number of flight preparations, take-offs, landings etc. Shifts were 10 days on, 5 days off. I worked in Operations, 40 hours per week, and depending on the tasks I could have working days of 16 hours one day and just 2 or 3 hours the other. But, as many people will agree, most of us with aviation in our hearts really enjoy the job and are prepared to put a lot into in (with certain limits of course). I unfortunately had to leave aviation due to circumstances, but will never give it up as it was the first love of my life.
Levent
I worked with Denim Air in Spain for two years, where they operate for Air Nostrum. I honestly don´t know what the pilot salaries are, but the workload is quite high. Most flights are an average of 40 minutes, ranging between 15 minutes PMI-IBZ to 1.30 hours VLC-BIO. Some international routes are longer (BCN-TRN 1.45-2.00 hours with F50/DH3). Lots of short sectors mean lots of legs in one day and the equal number of flight preparations, take-offs, landings etc. Shifts were 10 days on, 5 days off. I worked in Operations, 40 hours per week, and depending on the tasks I could have working days of 16 hours one day and just 2 or 3 hours the other. But, as many people will agree, most of us with aviation in our hearts really enjoy the job and are prepared to put a lot into in (with certain limits of course). I unfortunately had to leave aviation due to circumstances, but will never give it up as it was the first love of my life.
Levent
Well, for the moment there are so many pilots with already a type rating but without a job. So at this moment most of the companies don't take pilots without a type rating and they don't pay to get a type rating.Avro wrote:Do companies still pay for the type rating of the pilots or do they (the pilots) need to have the appropriate type rating when joining the airline.
Some lucky few though got to get a type rating paid by the company. For expample, SN took some fresh new pilots for his AVRO's and also Thomas Cook took two or three fresh pilots on A32O not so long ago. But overall at the moment they don't pay for the type rating and they expect you to have already some flying hours on the appropriate type of aircraft.
The butter and the money of the butter? Or Cpt Free Lancer?
Yes for some people that is a problem and live is not easy for everyone.olympus wrote:But it is a fact that you need to take your family with you wich isn't always very easy as most of our wives have jobs...
Thousands of Belgians are in that case and that dates from centuries back: the fishermen, the sailors, the businessmen and women. And do not forget the many thousands in NGO's, some of these workers have hard times, as do our army guys and girls abroad.
eg. The Dutch do not mind to go to any part of the world. But people who's family lived for ages in the Ardens or in the Schwarzwald, have problem leaving their valley. Seems to be in their genes?
It looks to me some category of Belgians (and others, of course) would like the nicest jobs, but no inconveniences at all.
And secondly, there seems to be no or little common intrest between some pilots (... and other employees) and their company:
The Company wants to compress the labour cost (because pilots are labour for the airline) and optimize productivity.
The pilots want the highest possible salary and the lowest number of working hours*.
I wonder if the pilots were their on boss, if they would reason like that?
Here is just an idea what is coming in the (near) future:
Why should companies worldwide not cancel the employers contracts of the pilots** and hire them as independent free lancers. The best men or women for the (particular) job. Like it is in many jobs nowadays.
That would give:
- (extreme) high salaries for the most sought after or competent ones.
- much higher motivations
- a good stir in corporative establishment
(- and a clean up of the unwanted)
Here is your free lancer captain speaking might soon be a quality label!
Don't say impossible, because in the world oldest and organised*** transport sector it is already done like that: maritime transport.
* So they can assist the wife in her job? Or take care of the childern. Or go play golf, why not, if you can?
** Note they did already with many other jobs that used to exsist in the airline business.
***useless to say organised here, because transort is already a 'system' which is an organised set of ideas, methods, or ways ways of working... And free lancing could be one of these coming ideas and methods..
I couldn't put it better than you did, SN30952. Times are changing everywhere, and if you're not flexible and mobile, you're out. We had a lot of whining IT-guys here as well who thought they were indispensable, couldn't be missed and felt underpaid. They are all out now, and some guys in Bangalore are doing the same job, even better, without whining about "long hours and my-colleague-at-the-other-side-of-the-road earns more than I do".
Bottom line: It is every pilot's right to complain about wages. It is every company's right not to give in to those demands. It is every pilot's right to strike. However, eventually, it is the stake holder/investor's very right to withdraw his investment when he feels productivity and earnings are below his expectations, because one of their main liabilities, pilots, are becoming a cost center that endangers his revenue stream. Cruel but basic market logic. Brussels and Belgium can perfectly function without SNBA, we have enough options to get from A to B, and the fact that it will be with carrier that doesn't give me a free meal, a KIT KAT or a newspaper is the least of my worries (contrary to some of the users of this forum)
Bottom line: It is every pilot's right to complain about wages. It is every company's right not to give in to those demands. It is every pilot's right to strike. However, eventually, it is the stake holder/investor's very right to withdraw his investment when he feels productivity and earnings are below his expectations, because one of their main liabilities, pilots, are becoming a cost center that endangers his revenue stream. Cruel but basic market logic. Brussels and Belgium can perfectly function without SNBA, we have enough options to get from A to B, and the fact that it will be with carrier that doesn't give me a free meal, a KIT KAT or a newspaper is the least of my worries (contrary to some of the users of this forum)
Hi everybody.
Hi eurojet I don't have enough options believe me that after SABENA my company had big problems.We are flying to some African destinations and SNBA is dooing a great job on this particular destinations.Also I think that Brussels need a home company to grow.
Regards
Patrice
Hi eurojet I don't have enough options believe me that after SABENA my company had big problems.We are flying to some African destinations and SNBA is dooing a great job on this particular destinations.Also I think that Brussels need a home company to grow.
Regards
Patrice
Hasta la victoria siempre.
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That is a very sensible way to do things Olympus. It's a pity that several British companies don't have the same attitude to strikes as that - hurt the management but not the passengers. Here, the first thing is to go on strike, b*gger the passengers who get stranded and then wonder why when the passengers get angry with you.olympus wrote: 4. I don't think our union delegates are in favour of a strike because they are too intelligent to start using those big guns immediately. I've heard them state clearly that they do NOT want to hurt the passengers in ANY way. Their problems (and ours) are with the management not our pax. We all do our best to make our passengers happy and get them to fly with us again so going on strike would not be very commercial of us would it now. There are more than enough ways to hurt our management without the passengers feeling any of it and from what I heard from our delegates that is what we'll be doing.
This is your captain singing.
Despite what some people say, SNBA do have very loyal passengers who appreciate an airline that still offers full in flight service instead of expecting passengers to pay for things over and above what they have already paid for their tickets. I certainly look forward to the next four flights I have on SNBA this year.
(The ultimate piece of stinking British union militancy must have been the fire brigade strikes a couple of years ago. People were left to die in fires rather than firemen leave their strike - and then they had the cheek to complain when they were attacked by membera of the public!)
Sabena and Sobelair - gone but never forgotten.
Louise
Louise
I just read about the perks that Alitalia pilots get. No wonder that the airline is almost bankrupt. They get the highest salaries, the shortest flight hours and the highest compensations in Europe. Just to give you an idea:
500 flight hours per year (this should increase to 900 in the emergency plan to save the company), maximum 8 consecutive flight hours (this should increase to 13), maximum 13 hours of duty (this should increase to 17), three days of rest or a premium of EUR 500 after a return flight to Tel Aviv, EUR 300 for each extra hour on the Osaka route or EUR 100 for each extra hour on the Buenos Aires route, which happens often with headwinds and technical stops, one extra rest day for New York and Miami flights, with 5 star hotels, and finally one extra holiday per month in addition to the 10 days granted to all for 'menstrual rest'!
500 flight hours per year (this should increase to 900 in the emergency plan to save the company), maximum 8 consecutive flight hours (this should increase to 13), maximum 13 hours of duty (this should increase to 17), three days of rest or a premium of EUR 500 after a return flight to Tel Aviv, EUR 300 for each extra hour on the Osaka route or EUR 100 for each extra hour on the Buenos Aires route, which happens often with headwinds and technical stops, one extra rest day for New York and Miami flights, with 5 star hotels, and finally one extra holiday per month in addition to the 10 days granted to all for 'menstrual rest'!
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Prego, Andre, piano ma con molto tremolo....
Hi Andre, now I get to understand what lavorare means with Alitalia pilots, can you explain to me and the others here what farniente means, please piano? Ciao, Andresn26567 wrote:I just read about the perks that Alitalia pilots get.
500 flight hours per year (this should increase to 900 in the emergency plan to save the company), maximum 8 consecutive flight hours (this should increase to 13), maximum 13 hours of duty (this should increase to 17), three days of rest or a premium of EUR 500 after a return flight to Tel Aviv, EUR 300 for each extra hour on the Osaka route or EUR 100 for each extra hour on the Buenos Aires route, which happens often with headwinds and technical stops, one extra rest day for New York and Miami flights, with 5 star hotels, and finally one extra holiday per month in addition to the 10 days granted to all for 'menstrual rest'!