Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

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Boeing767copilot
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Boeing767copilot »

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.2685162

120 euro voor 8 centimeter extra beenruimte en fleecedekentje op vliegtuig

Sai
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Sai »

Inquirer wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but the seats on my Jetairfly flight looked exactly the same as those in regular economy, just that they were further apart, and I did appreciate that very much!
I can only speak for the B787: wider seats indeed in a seperate cabin and 7 abreast iso 8 abreast in economy.
The rest of the service and 'gadgets' are all exactly the same. JAF € 110 iso SN €120.
I also had lounge access and could pass via the fast-lane security, however I don't know if it was included in the upgrade or something else...
B767 I don't have a clue, maybe someone else had experience?
Last edited by Sai on 16 Jun 2016, 21:34, edited 1 time in total.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Passenger »

Boeing767copilot wrote:http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/binnenland/1.2685162
120 euro voor 8 centimeter extra beenruimte en fleecedekentje op vliegtuig
Economy Plus zal 120 euro per vluchtsegmenten kosten en moet "meer comfort en een extra service aan boord" bieden. Zo hebben stoelen 8 centimeter extra beenruimte en is de rugleuning verder verstelbaar. Passagiers krijgen ook een verzorgingsset, hoofdtelefoon met verhoogde kwaliteit, een fleecedekentje, een verfrissingsdoekje en een glaasje champagne tijdens de maaltijd. Na de vlucht krijgt de passagier ook een doosje chocolaatjes.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by sn26567 »

Sai wrote:
Inquirer wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but the seats on my Jetairfly flight looked exactly the same as those in regular economy, just that they were further apart, and I did appreciate that very much!
I can only speak for the B787: wider seats indeed in a seperate cabin and 7 abreast iso 8 abreast in economy.
The rest of the service and 'gadgets' are all exactly the same. JAF € 110 iso SN €120.
I also had lounge access and could pass via the fast-lane security, however I don't know if it was included in the upgrade or something else...
B767 I don't have a clue, maybe someone else had experience?
JAF 787 has 9 seats in Y and 7 in Comfort Class. Only JAL still has 8 seats abreast in 787 Y.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Passenger »

Recline on the Economy Plus seats increases from 8° to 20°.

Source: the leading Dutch Business Traveler website:
http://www.zakenreisnieuws.nl/nieuws/ca ... lus-klasse

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Flanker2 »

JAF 787 has 9 seats in Y and 7 in Comfort Class. Only JAL still has 8 seats abreast in 787 Y.
In Y+ on the B787, JL is 7 abreast, 19.2 inch width, 42 inch pitch.
This compares with SN's J class with 20.5 inch width and 42 inch pitch.

So JL's Y+ offers almost as much room as SN's J.
I would add that having tried the JL Y+ product, it's quite comparable to SN's overall J product.
I also tried JL's J product and it flies circles over SN's J product.

JL charges a lot more for Y+ compared to Y ex-Europe, but it seems to be always full. IMO the fare delta must be much smaller for pax originating in Japan, as Y fares out of Japan are much higher.

JL made a profit of 1.8 billion USD in 2015 with a fleet of only 170 aircraft, despite offering customers more room, superior comfort and being the airline that spends the most money on maintenance and on-time performance. They always seem to carry more cabin crew on their flights than other airlines.
Even on the ground, JL staff are all over it to ensure pax are taken care of.
If you miss a connection with JL, you will be lodged in an expensive 4 or 5 star hotel near the airport and an agent will be waiting for you at the gate to disembark and hand you your new ticket and hotel voucher.

Even though we have a direct flight with NH out of BRU, we still select JL over NH for its superior overall service and much better value for money. NH is charging 800-1000 Euro return fares for the direct flight.
I think that the reborn JL gets it: it's about value for money, service in both hard and soft products, and winning the hearts of all pax alike, be it Y, Y+, J or F pax.
In fact, friends of mine who were considering a trip to Japan ended up choosing JL over any other cheaper options or NH's direct flight, following my recommendations. The great service they gave me comes back to them in the form of additional revenue, profits and so on.

SN's initiative for Y+ is a good thing, but I think that they should also add lounge access for the passengers.
Their new lounge in pier B is good but too small. Also, it's inconveniently located for pax who fly on Star codeshare flights as it's located too far at the end of the terminal.

Also, SN should realise that whatever they are selling as "service" is nothing compared to what other airlines are offering. Gustin & co. should definitely try flying JL, experience their entire offering, compare with their own, and learn what they can copy from them.
Also, I just booked a flight for this summer with JL and it was the cheapest option, even before the likes of LH, TK, QR, EK, LOT, AZ. After all, JL operates in the highest imaginable cost environment, yet they manage to make huge profits with a small fleet of aircraft, simply by their focus to be "the most preferred airline in the world".

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by sean1982 »

RTM wrote:
sean1982 wrote:No need to shout RTM, the reason why this is not off topic is because you cannot just slap on a few extra cm's with a better meal and champagne (one way) and call it Y+. I think that that is not what passengers who pay for the premium would expect. I mean, yes the price is quite low, so some people might be tempted, the question is if it is sufficient in the customers eyes.
It is totally off topic, and you know that very well...
A pear is just an apple with a hump, hence you can compare them... Right?

One is a cheap shorthaul operator, the other is a hybrid longhaul service of a hub operator.

FR didn't give anything, they just lowered cost by installing lighter seats. Added benefit is more legspace, so as soon as they twisted Boeings arm hard enough to get the aircraft certified for more pax, extra seat rows will be added. Other than that, they offer nothing on top.
SN actually took seat rows out to accommodate a better service level for those who are willing to pay just that little more. Also, 4 cm is not the same as 8 cm. But in most aircraft actually, every cm counts to be honest. So even the 4 are appreciated for the time it is available.
Further, extra recline angle, and better catering level is added value if you ask me, and especially as a package, it is well worth the money if you are my length. But from my point of view, even just the legroom and recline angle alone would allready be worth it.
So if they are not allowed by you to call it Y+, what name would you suggest? Come on, make a constructive comment, in stead of a demeaning one.
It doesnt matter RTM. Y is Y, a plane is a plane, more legroom is more legroom.

I would call it ... Our best economy seats? I stick to the fact that you cannot give a few more cm and more recline and call it Y+. Its the same seat! And 240€ extra for a return flight for 1 glass of champagne, 2 meals (which you would get anyway), a headset (where seasoned travellers have a noise cancelling headset anyway), a blanket and hot towel and some chocolates is very steep :/

Dont get me wrong, SN already gets very good reviews on their Y product on long haul. Good seats, good Food, nice crew and so on .... I dont see the point of potentially dissappointing customers by having them pay more, and not getting that much in return compared to Y
Last edited by sean1982 on 17 Jun 2016, 08:56, edited 2 times in total.

Duke
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Duke »

DeltaWiskey wrote: By the end of July, all A330's should be configured with this new product and at the same time, the economy seat headrest will also get a slight redesign for increased comfort.
Where will the aircraft be converted? On a one for one basis?
How does this change affect the total amount of passengers that can fly on the A330-300 and the A330-200?
Will OO-SFX also be converted ?
Where can we see the adapted seat maps?

Thanks for the info,
Duke

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Inquirer »

Oh, come on Sean...

So basically, to summarize this whole discussion so far:
the additional and optional upgrading of their standard eco class is a nice feature for those who'd want it,
the deal itself is pretty good value too (I'd pay this kind of money for it, and so would others apparently),
yet the name should not be allowed to be economy plus according to you, because there's just not enough ¨plus¨ to it yet to be called that way, when comparing to other airlines' economy plus offerings. :roll:

I don't know where you got that idea from, but ¨economy plus¨ or ¨premium economy¨ of whatever it is generally called next to the often even more confusing product names invented by the airlines themselves, is a fairly new booking class just above regular economy, so as such there's not (yet) an industry standard nor a general expectation about what it should at least include, at least to my knowledge?
Some make it almost a business light (e.g. Lufthansa), others (e.g. KLM) do exactly what Brussels did.
People will just have to check what's really in it and decide for themselves if the deal is value for money.
Nothing misleading about it at all, IMHO: it's an enhancement, sold at a premium, to those willing.


Now, since you've looked back to Ryanair, let me do so too for a second:
Ryanair is selling much more expensive tickets under the name of business plus since recently.
Given your comments on the ¨plus¨ in ¨economy plus¨ of Brussels Airlines, in what way does this premium Ryanair product justifies to have a reference to ¨business¨ in it's name then, given it comes nowhere near the long established industry standards nor customers expectations of what a business class ticket is all about then?

See the point, Sean?
It's just a name for an enhanced product sold at a premium...

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by RTM »

sean1982 wrote: It doesnt matter RTM. Y is Y, a plane is a plane, more legroom is more legroom.

I would call it ... Our best economy seats? I stick to the fact that you cannot give a few more cm and more recline and call it Y+. Its the same seat! And 240€ extra for a return flight for 1 glass of champagne, 2 meals (which you would get anyway), a headset (where seasoned travellers have a noise cancelling headset anyway), a blanket and hot towel and some chocolates is very steep :/

Dont get me wrong, SN already gets very good reviews on their Y product on long haul. Good seats, good Food, nice crew and so on .... I dont see the point of potentially dissappointing customers by having them pay more, and not getting that much in return compared to Y
Ok, so you don't (want to) get the point. No problem. No big deal. You're just not the target for this product. Plenty of normal seats left in Y- then...

Edited by moderator

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer, its because they didnt call it business to set it apart from other LCC premium products. It would be a different story if they had both business and business plus. My point with Y+ is that it underdelivers compared with competition who offer Y+ while at the same time it might draw passengers from J to a cheaper product.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by sn26567 »

I think that we have to make a clear distinction between Economy Plus (the product offered SN, KL, ...) and Premium Economy (the product of LH, UA, ...). There is a world of difference between both, as well in price as in quality.

I agree that most travellers will have no idea why they differ so much, and therefore some work had to be done by the passengers before they travel.

But the airlines also should be a lot clearer about what they are offering. I think that SN made a good job in explaining their new product.
André
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:I think that we have to make a clear distinction between Economy Plus (the product offered SN, KL, ...) and Premium Economy (the product of LH, UA, ...). There is a world of difference between both, as well in price as in quality.

I agree that most travellers will have no idea why they differ so much, and therefore some work had to be done by the passengers before they travel.

But the airlines also should be a lot clearer about what they are offering. I think that SN made a good job in explaining their new product.
Agree. What matters for tall people is the leg room, not the seat pitch. The leg room is the space for your knees. And Brussels Airlines (just like KLM) explains what it is: "8 cm more legroom". That's a lot in Economy.

Same applies for the comfort of the recline: that increases from 8° to 20°, which gives one a lot more comfort for a sleep.

Add to that the other bonuses, like better meals & glass of Laurent Perrier & higher quality blanket, it's value for money.

Bralo20
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Bralo20 »

sn26567 wrote:I think that we have to make a clear distinction between Economy Plus (the product offered SN, KL, ...) and Premium Economy (the product of LH, UA, ...). There is a world of difference between both, as well in price as in quality.
UA has just "economy plus" not premium economy. It's most of the time more expensive then SN's E+ and you get less bang for your buck. With UA you'll only get a few inches more and that's it (33" vs 31"). No amenity kit, no upgraded food, no champagne, nothing.

So compared to UA, SN's value is quite OK.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Flanker2 »

Add to that the other bonuses, like better meals & glass of Laurent Perrier & higher quality blanket, it's value for money.
I must align myself with others to say that 8cm of legroom, better meals and a glass of champagne are not worth 120 Euro's one-way or 240 Euro's return.

Even for the corporate contracts who are increasingly flying Y even on longhaul, a 240 Euro premium is difficult to justify for only these handful of additional perks.
I understand why SN doesn't offer a real Y+ offer like the Asian counterparts. In fact, it would tempt many corporates to downgrade J to Y+.
However, 120 Euro's one-way is too expensive and it will not sell in the longer term even if an initial wave of curiosity might see some revenue. I think that the value offered is only worth a 50-60 Euro premium one-way.

If lounge access is included, 70 Euro can be justified.

At 120 Euro's one-way, I think that most seats will end up being filled by unpaid upgrades, adding as much in costs as it will generate in revenue.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:I must align myself with others to say that 8cm of legroom, better meals and a glass of champagne are not worth 120 Euro's one-way or 240 Euro's return.
And who are those others to whom you have aligned yourself to? Eight times the same ex-Ryanair-now-a-British-Airways-employee, posting eight times the same.
Flanker2 wrote: Even for the corporate contracts who are increasingly flying Y even on longhaul, a 240 Euro premium is difficult to justify for only these handful of additional perks.
120 € one way is not difficult to justify: it will be difficult to resist.

RTM
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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by RTM »

I think if you are not above average height, the standard legroom is quite sufficient. Hence some people do not see the added value of 8 cm. Others are obsessed with getting the cheapest deal, no matter what. That is all fine. I can assure you however that if you are above average heith, and do not mind spending some extra on comfort, it, and the extra 12° recline really are good value for money. The rest I do not care about, but makes it more attractive. So lets be honest, it is a good deal, and there is a market for it.
Will hey fill it on every flight, I don't know, But I think there is a good chance.
Will they loose people in C class on it? I really don't think so. That really is a whole other level, both in price and in comfort.

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Re: Brussels Airlines introduces Economy Plus on longhaul flights

Post by LJ »

Flanker2 wrote:I must align myself with others to say that 8cm of legroom, better meals and a glass of champagne are not worth 120 Euro's one-way or 240 Euro's return.
If they get the EUR 120 one way. I wouldn't be surprised if this move is coming from some large corporate contracts which want somethin better than Y (so that they can alter their travel policy and move from J to Y). Those companies won't pay EUR but less (depending on how much they buy).

There was a thread on Anet an few days ago which talked about companies moving away from business class travel into economy for the not senior employees. This move by SN fits perfectly in such a development in the market.

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