Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

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sean1982
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sean1982 »

Stij wrote:
Passenger wrote:- Brussels Airlines market share at Brussels Airport is 1/3th of Lufthansa's market share at FRA, of Swiss' market fare at ZRH and of Austrian's market share at VIE.
Impressive!

In 2015 SN had a marketshare in BRU of around 32% (7,5m/23,5m) (and it's increasing...)

So, if zhe Germans, zhe Swiss and zhe Austrians have a market share that's 3 times bigger, they're all at 96%... NOT!

Stij

P.S. Probably the journalist's mistake. not Spohr... he's not an idiot...
Spohr is probably referencing the BELGIAN market share and not the BRU market share as in a small country like Belgium, one airport market share is hardly relevant. I've tried to point that out a few times in the past few days, but thanks god Spohr is less blind to it than a few posters on the forum

Stij
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Stij »

There are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics... You prove what you want to prove...

Anyhow, the article clearly states "Brussels Airport" (without an "s" at the end), so the article certainly is wrong...

Stij

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

sean1982 wrote:
Stij wrote: Impressive!

In 2015 SN had a marketshare in BRU of around 32% (7,5m/23,5m) (and it's increasing...)

So, if zhe Germans, zhe Swiss and zhe Austrians have a market share that's 3 times bigger, they're all at 96%... NOT!

Stij

P.S. Probably the journalist's mistake. not Spohr... he's not an idiot...
Spohr is probably referencing the BELGIAN market share and not the BRU market share as in a small country like Belgium, one airport market share is hardly relevant. I've tried to point that out a few times in the past few days, but thanks god Spohr is less blind to it than a few posters on the forum
Probably, but still... THREE times the market share of SN? LH, agreed. But LX and OS? Highly doubt it...

The last full year figures (of 2015) show SN's market share at roughly 25% fot both Brussels Airport and Charleroi Airport combined (I don't include OST and LGG since they have another market).

That would mean all other airlines in the LH group Spohr mentioned, would have around 75% each of their home markets. What do we see? OS holds 47% at VIE and I didn't even include SZG, INN and GRZ... LX stands at 61% at ZRH, again not taking the other airports it serves in Switzerland into acount...

So with a bit of goodwill you might say LX's home market share in 2015 was almost 3 times that of SN.

In 2016 SN vastly improved its Brussels Airport market share to 37%, mainly due to the known reasons. But still, that seems like an evolution which won't end soon.

Or journalists screwed up, or Spohr is lying to get his message over... But then again, the plans layed out in the interview above are pretty acceptable imho. Although I don't understand what's a big deal about the name. Even a new one, including Belgium, is an option (so no Brussels Airlines or Eurowings)... Apart from having to repaint the entire fleet (another cost to be added), I don't know what good a changed would do, since SN is building quite some brand recognition, especially for its long haul product...
Last edited by Conti764 on 06 Oct 2016, 10:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:Spohr is probably referencing the BELGIAN market share and not the BRU market share as in a small country like Belgium, one airport market share is hardly relevant. I've tried to point that out a few times in the past few days, but thanks god Spohr is less blind to it than a few posters on the forum
Quote from De Redactie: "...Het marktaandeel van Brussels op Brussels Airport bedraagt maar één derde van dat van Lufthansa in Frankfurt, van Swiss in Zürich en van Austrian in Wenen..."

As Stij just said: Spohr was referring to Brussels Airport, and not to all Belgian airports together. Just like Spohr compared them to Swiss' market share at ZRH, and not Swiss' market share at ZRH/GVA/BSL/LUG/...

The combined market share for Brussels Airlines at BRU and CRL together is 30%. Ryanair has 24% and Lufthansa 4%.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Stij »

Conti764 wrote:... Although I don't understand what's a big deal about the name. Even a new one, including Belgium, is an option (so no Brussels Airlines or Eurowings)... Apart from having to repaint the entire fleet (another cost to be added), I don't know what good a changed would do, since SN is building quite some brand recognition, especially for its long haul product...
What's in a name?

Seriously, If I were them, I wouldn't change the name at all, but standardize the livery, a bit like BA and Deutsche BA in the past. Recognition of the group while respecting the local sensitivities. You can do this with the onboard product as well: a standardized 3 or 4 class offering (lost count), but Belgian Beer on Brussels Airlines, Mozart Küglen on Austrian, Dole Blanche on Swiss and 6 Nürnberger Würstchen on Germanwings. Combine all this in one comprehensive booking engine, centralize part of the back office and off we go.

If any of the Germans reads this, remember what Godfroid (ex CEO of Sabena) once said about his time at Continental Foods (an American Multinational): coffee in Europe isn't as coffee in the US: coffee tastes different in every single country in Europe, you can't standardize this without loosing your market. Same is partly true for aviation: people pay a (small) premium to feel at "home"... Don't leave money on the table..

Cheers,

Stij

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sean1982 »

Stij wrote:Same is partly true for aviation: people pay a (small) premium to feel at "home"... Don't leave money on the table..

Cheers,

Stij
Working for a company that is currently revamping its short haul Stij, I think that in todays Europe that is not true anymore/ My employer is changing its short haul product because people are not willing to pay the premium anymore for the "home feeling". The CEO's brief stated that short haul in Europe has moved to a completely price driven environment with little or no customer rentention anymore.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

It is strange like different media report different stories. Take La Libre Belgique for example : there Spohr says employment will increase through the increase in the number of planes and destinations, SN will grow its market share in BRU, SN will be integrated into EW but keep a Belgian name, etc.

http://m.lalibre.be/economie/libre-entr ... 1fc42622ac

Vary your sources of information to get the full story!
André
ex Sabena #26567

Stij
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Stij »

sean1982 wrote:Working for a company that is currently revamping its short haul Stij, I think that in todays Europe that is not true anymore/ My employer is changing its short haul product because people are not willing to pay the premium anymore for the "home feeling". The CEO's brief stated that short haul in Europe has moved to a completely price driven environment with little or no customer rentention anymore.
I believe your CEO said this, however for some strange reason I'm willing to pay 50€ more to fly SN or his airline for long haul if no non-stop is available from BRU) than airlines such as Hainan or FR...

Of course the days people would pay 200€ more are gone, but a premium is still paid, especially if the company pays...

I'll try to explain it in another way: imagine being the crew on a Eurowings (Ex SN) flight from Brussels to Alicante in July and the beer you serve is Warsteiner... (No Sir, no Stella anymore...) Have fun from row 1 to 30!

Cheers,

Stij

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MD-11forever
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by MD-11forever »

And the reaction of Etienne Davignon:

http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20161006_02504725

Main takeaways:
- It is clear that Brussels Airlines does not fit in Eurowings in the latter's current constellation
- Eurowings is only the best option for Brussels Airlines if Eurowings changes its model (read: to the Brussels Airlines model)
- Brussels Airlines need to grow, and growth means more jobs

I just wonder if LH, and Spohr in particular, has the same view...

sean1982
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sean1982 »

Stij wrote:
sean1982 wrote:Working for a company that is currently revamping its short haul Stij, I think that in todays Europe that is not true anymore/ My employer is changing its short haul product because people are not willing to pay the premium anymore for the "home feeling". The CEO's brief stated that short haul in Europe has moved to a completely price driven environment with little or no customer rentention anymore.
I believe your CEO said this, however for some strange reason I'm willing to pay 50€ more to fly SN or his airline for long haul if no non-stop is available from BRU) than airlines such as Hainan or FR...

Of course the days people would pay 200€ more are gone, but a premium is still paid, especially if the company pays...

I'll try to explain it in another way: imagine being the crew on a Eurowings (Ex SN) flight from Brussels to Alicante in July and the beer you serve is Warsteiner... (No Sir, no Stella anymore...) Have fun from row 1 to 30!

Cheers,

Stij
Oh but I get you, I agree as well. Im pretty miffed about the short haul changes. I was talking about short haul only btw, for long haul the "willingness to pay premium" still exists.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by teddybAIR »

My best guess is that the decision center will be centralized in Germany, so most overhead and non-core activities will be consolidated in the group. Next to that the plan will also be to keep increasing the activities at BRU, thereby growing the business while preparing the business model for further competition with LCC in an environment where fuel prices are expected to be higher. At least, that is how I interpret Spohr's and Davignon's versions of what is probably the same strategy.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn-remember »

From the interview CEO Spohr gave to "the tijd" and summarized in French in "l'écho"
Excerpts from "l'écho", no time to read the whole article in "de tijd".
"
1.Une disparition de Brussels Airlines, affirme-t-il, n’est pas à l’ordre du jour. Mais une intégration poussée de Brussels dans Eurowings est inévitable
2.Lufthansa entend ainsi développer le business model hybride de Brussels Airlines
3. Le but d’Eurowings est clair, aux yeux de Spohr: devenir le numéro un du vol "hybride" sans correspondance en Allemagne, en Suisse et en Autriche. Et en Belgique naturellement, l’an prochain.
4. Lufthansa entend tout autant maintenir et étendre le réseau africain de Brussels.
5. Dans un premier temps, Brussels Airlines conservera aussi son nom. Ce nom ne changerait qu’en concertation avec le management et à supposer que l’on trouve une meilleure appellation.
"
So my comments :
Point 1 : it seems only the name "brussels airlines" will be temporarily kept. See point 5.
Point 2 : not a surprise
Point 3 : this is the BIG problem I see ; the important word is "sans correspondance" meaning without transit passengers. This will kill BRU as a hub. The "strength" of SN and ONLY future for bru is the star alliance operation there. Each route is dependant on another route, whatever the star operator, sn being the main feeder. With this "sans correspondance" model, forget about the feeder concept, alliance concept, transit pax concept, hub concept. NOT ACCEPTABLE IMO.
Point 4 : This seems to me inconsistent with the above .. How can they expect to develop the african ntwk from bru without feeding and transit ? From America, Far-east and Europe ? And besides Africa, what about the bom station SN is opening in a few weeks if there is no transit to America via the star parners or to Europe via SN and at the other side, transit to the rest of India via AI operation in bom ?
Point 5 : Let's forget the alleged "emotional B anchor" the name of the airline conveys or shoud convey .. The only REAL thing to keep in mind is that the airline SN named "Brussels Airlines" is a full star alliance member with a hub and spoke logic. Name is not important, SN is.
Putting the hub logic to a rest (or halt ?) is putting the airport's future development in serious jeopardy.
.. I hope they will be clever enough to keep sn as they keep os and lx, and develop them further, besides operating the hybrid EW model in those same hubs .. A risky thing ?
Last edited by sn-remember on 06 Oct 2016, 13:30, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by convair »

sn-remember wrote:From the interview CEO Spohr gave to "the tijd" and summarized in French in "l'écho"
Excerpts from "l'écho", no time to read the whole article in "de tijd".
"
1.Une disparition de Brussels Airlines, affirme-t-il, n’est pas à l’ordre du jour. Mais une intégration poussée de Brussels dans Eurowings est inévitable
2.Lufthansa entend ainsi développer le business model hybride de Brussels Airlines
3. Le but d’Eurowings est clair, aux yeux de Spohr: devenir le numéro un du vol "hybride" sans correspondance en Allemagne, en Suisse et en Autriche. Et en Belgique naturellement, l’an prochain.
4. Lufthansa entend tout autant maintenir et étendre le réseau africain de Brussels.
5. Dans un premier temps, Brussels Airlines conservera aussi son nom. Ce nom ne changerait qu’en concertation avec le management et à supposer que l’on trouve une meilleure appellation.
"
So my comments :
Point 1 : it seems only the name "brussels airlines" will be temporarily kept. See point 5.
Point 2 : not a surprise
Point 3 : this is the BIG problem I see ; the important word is "sans correspondance" meaning without transit passengers. This will kill BRU as a hub. The "strength" of SN and ONLY future for bru is the star alliance operation there. Each route is dependant on another route, whatever the star operator, sn being the main feeder. With this "sans correspondance" model, forget about the feeder concept, alliance concept, transit pax concept, hub concept. NOT ACCEPTABLE IMO.
Point 4 : This seems to me inconsistent with the above .. How can they expect to develop the african ntwk from bru without feeding and transit ? From America, Far-east and Europe ? What about the bom station about to open in a few weeks if there is no transit to America via the star parners or Europe via SN ?
Point 5 : Let's forget the alleged "emotional B anchor" the name of the airline conveys or shoud convey .. The only REAL thing to keep in mind is that the airline SN named "Brussels Airlines" is a full star alliance member with a hub and spoke logic. Name is not important, SN is.
Putting the hub logic to a rest (or halt ?) is putting the airport's future development in serious jeopardy.
.. I hope they will be clever enough to keep sn as they keep os and lx, and develop them further, besides operating the hybrid EW model in those same hubs .. A risky thing ?
I assume Spohr's interview was in German or English, not in Dutch nor French. The words "sans correspondance" were just a journalist's translation. Could it be that the original words used by Spohr meant "without equivalent" (to the hybrid system he wants to develop)?

Why would he have felt the need to specifically add "without connection" or something similar, otherwise?

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Inquirer »

Interesting how the same interview yields different titles across the Belgian press, depending how the journalist wants to look at it?!

I've tried to list the main points from the interview, without adding personal comment or slant to it:

1- they will not split the company since it's a hub airline and will remain so (as well as remaining in STAR)

2- if they'd change name, it'll still be something separately Belgian + different to a generic eurowings name

3- they want to grow and already have firm plans to expand the intercontinental network and to add more planes (plural) for this purpose.

4- they will need everybody working for them, and will even need more flying staff

5- they can not guarantee every individual to keep his current function
teddybAIR wrote:My best guess is that the decision center will be centralized in Germany, so most overhead and non-core activities will be consolidated in the group. Next to that the plan will also be to keep increasing the activities at BRU, thereby growing the business while preparing the business model for further competition with LCC in an environment where fuel prices are expected to be higher. At least, that is how I interpret Spohr's and Davignon's versions of what is probably the same strategy.
You might be very right on that sir, that's what I read too, when I put all that is said together: it sounds like a BrusselsWings (or whatever name they may adopt in future), which could easily fly 10 or 12M passengers to/from/through BRU on a significantly expanded network and with a product similar to the one they run now, yet co-marketed and co-managed by eurowings, thus with lower overhead costs and a bigger revenue potential.
Sounds pretty good to me?

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Boavida »

Inquirer wrote: 2- if they'd change name, it'll still be something separately Belgian + different to a generic eurowings name
Image

Seriously, when you think of it, it would make a lot of sense.

Even after 10 years of 'Brussels Airlines', Sabena still is a more recognized brand in the world, CERTAINLY in the so important African market. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't use this valuable brand again.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sn26567 »

Inquirer wrote:it sounds like a BrusselsWings (or whatever name they may adopt in future), which could easily fly 10 or 12M passengers to/from/through BRU on a significantly expanded network and with a product similar to the one they run now, yet co-marketed and co-managed by eurowings, thus with lower overhead costs and a bigger revenue potential.
For lower overhead costs, Eurowings will have to adopt the Brussels Airlines model, and not the other way around !
André
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote:Seriously, when you think of it, it would make a lot of sense. Even after 10 years of 'Brussels Airlines', Sabena still is a more recognized brand in the world, CERTAINLY in the so important African market. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't use this valuable brand again.
Seriously? Do you have any idea how bad that name sounds within the tourism trade (aviation, travel, hotels, coach transport, taxi's)? Do you have any idea how many people and companies have lost money with the Sabena bankruptcy? Let me give you just three examples: all MCI's became worthless after the bankruptcy. Payment of allotments by touroperators: lost. Open hotel bills from crew (accommodation & meals): never paid. Even after 15 years, "Sabena" is burnt.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by cathay belgium »

mmmmm....

Like it or not but the Germans are in charge, they have the money, they have the business...
It all sounds brussels or belgianwings to me,...
Better be prepared of a name change... sooner then later...
It's stated clearly today that LH hasn't the same intentions with SN then they have with LX,OS...
Guess we better learnt and spoken german before :lol:
We are big in belgium and thats it...

CXB
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Boavida »

Passenger wrote:
Boavida wrote:Seriously, when you think of it, it would make a lot of sense. Even after 10 years of 'Brussels Airlines', Sabena still is a more recognized brand in the world, CERTAINLY in the so important African market. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't use this valuable brand again.
Seriously? Do you have any idea how bad that name sounds within the tourism trade (aviation, travel, hotels, coach transport, taxi's)? Do you have any idea how many people and companies have lost money with the Sabena bankruptcy? Let me give you just three examples: all MCI's became worthless after the bankruptcy. Payment of allotments by touroperators: lost. Open hotel bills from crew (accommodation & meals): never paid. Even after 15 years, "Sabena" is burnt.
What does the PUBLIC (= the customers) care about not paid hotel bills after the bankruptcy 15 years ago? Nothing.

What matters is a recognizable brandname, on a large scale. It's priceless.

Face it: Brussels Airlines might be known in Belgium but is hardly known in other countries. Sabena still is a recognizable brand, even after 15 years. All the negativity about the bankruptcy has faded away.

I think the people in the tourism industry etc, who have lost money because of the bankruptcy, are clever enough to realize the 'new' Sabena has NOTHING to do with the old company and is an entirely new company anno 2018. And if not I've one message to them: get over it.

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Flanker2 »

https://www.aviation24.be/brusselswings-do ... lufthansa/

They might as well call it "sprouts & chicken".

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