Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

sean1982 wrote:SN is nothing more or less to LH than what Vueling is to IAG, with that difference that LH already HAD that with eurowings. It would be highly unprofitable for them to run the same business model under different brands. Therefore we already see in the other airlines that they owe a slow but steady morph into the eurowings brand. The fact that SN's long haul business is fairly small (compared to austrian and swiss for example) doesnt help.

My prediction is that the LH divison in time will be dismantled and the LH division will move to FRA, with BRU being left with a lot of codeshares into LH LH destinations, like what Vueling does with IAG.

This is the sad economic reality of today
I disagree.

If you want to compare Vueling to an airline of LH, compare it to Eurowings itself. Like someone already mentioned, if you need to compare an airline of IAG with SN, then it should be EI.

I am always kind of surprised how everyone seems to underestimate Brussels’ and BRU’s potential… What has the city of Amsterdam more to offer then Brussels, accept for being a more popular tourist destination? Nothing imho. In Brussels you have the headquarters of both the EU and the NATO. If it wasn’t for KL’s vast network, AMS would not be much bigger then BRU or at least not that much. Mainly thanks to KL, AMS exploded and now attracts airlines from a lot of countries, right because it offers a big transfer potential. Why wouldn’t BRU be able to do the same, albeit in smaller numbers?

SN had the bad luck to inherit the mess poorly run Sabena, infested by a big government mentality, left behind. And even then, SN Brussels Airlines performed good, was turning profits right until the merger with TV after which they (too) were struck with the biggest economic downturn since the Great Depression. Last year SN proved their potential by having a reasonable profit and having double digit growth figures and even this year, despite the March 22 attacks, SN showed great flexibility and proved to bounce back quickly.
Now, about LH slowly dissolving SN’s l/h operations and shift it to FRA. Why on Earth would they do so? Not to speak about the fact that all of SN’s African flights are subject to bilateral agreements between Belgium and the different African countries they fly to. Of course, Germany could negotiate those as well but why go through the hassle of it if LH will soon have an airline in its portfolio which has the traffic rights, has a lot of experience in Africa and build a very favorable brand recognition? By dissolving SN they’d give the lucrative African market (which SN proved is highly profitable) to AF/KLM on a silver plate.

I’d say that in the current European and global aviation market, LH would rather try to attack AF/KLM then hand them over a market which is the bread and butter for both SN and AF… AF/KLM is increasing strength and setting a firm foot in the global aviation market, proven by the fact 9W is up gauging AMS to an all 77W operation and is negotiating joining the AF/KL/AI/DL joint venture.
And how better attack AF/KLM then right in their backyard with SN having a underused hub right in the middle of AMS and CDG?

OS only serves 15 long haul destinations (although I doubt if you can consider both BGW and IKA can be considered long haul, so actually only 13), compared to SN’s 21 long haul flights and while SN’s pax numbers are steadily rising, OS’s are decreasing. So I don’t know why OS would be in easier weather than SN.

Of course, I don’t know what LH will do with SN and I’m only an armchair CEO, but if I were pulling the ropes at LH, I would not just throw away SN and would do my best to develop in to yet another gem in the LH Group. The potential is there, imho…

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Flanker2 »

I see a lot of excitement here but not much has changed since yesterday.
Have you guys actually read the press release from LH?

LH is just saying that they will exercise their options and attempt to acquire the full shareholding by the end of the year (hence attempting to avoid the full 150+ million payment) by negotiating with the shareholders.
This doesn't say anything about conserving the SN hub or identity after the take-over.

The SN press release states what the SN managment and current majority shareholding will attempt to get.
-keeping the brand
-keeping the management in BRU
-keeping the structure, routes and network in BRU

The SN PR states "The Brussels Airlines name remains".(for now)
This doesn't mean that "it will remain" after the take-over or in 2 years.

Essentially, nothing has changed and the final take-over is postponed until LH can get an agreement with the shareholders (or not get that agreement at all).
Still, LH will have to fork out the suggested 150 million minimum price and guarantee that SN stays SN, otherwise the shareholders have no reason to give up their shares.

I doubt that they'll reach an agreement because I doubt that LH will fork out the 150 millions or anything close to that.
The soap opera is only beginning, IMO.


Regarding investments into LX and OS...
LX got B77W's, while they could have gotten A350-1000's in 2017/2018 or B779's in 2020. Now they're going to be stuck with them (and pax will have their butts stuck in the 3-4-3's) for another 15-20 years while everyone will be flying nextgen B787's, A350's and B779's.
As for the CS100 order which was later converted as much as possible into the CS300's, while beter than the Avro's they replace, it's just a much-needed replacement. They can't go on with the Avro's forever.
OS has not even gotten a decent longhaul replacement and it's been a while since OS is under LH.
Oh yes the Fokkers, but it was about time...

LH has ordered NEO's, A359's and B779's for itself. None of them for the subsidiaries.
So don't dream too much, too soon. If anything, seeing how LH transferred the old A332's from LX to SN, SN will be where the LH group's fleet goes to die.

Don't get too excited yet, or before you know it, the SN aircraft will head to the paintshop to get different shades of red and blue.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 28 Sep 2016, 21:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

sean1982 wrote: Besides the fact that Vueling does not do long haul ops it is exactly what SN does. It carries a mix of customers on codeshares with IB and BA. Mixed routes, mixed clientèle, mixed operations.
So basicly... Eurowings? ;)

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Flanker2 »

If you ask me, neither Vueling, Transavia, Eurowings, Ryanair, Norwegian or Easyjet are going anywhere.
I only see some good potential in Wizzair who is sticking to the traditional LCC parameters.

brabel
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by brabel »

In Terzake on the Flemish TV, it is said by Heinrich Großbongardt that SN would remain its name. (watch at 3:18)
Note that this person does not work for LH, but is an independent aviation expert.
He also focuses on the strong African netwerk that is important for LH.

A bit later Steven Decraene adds that it is not 100% sure that the brand will remain.
It is still very unclear, he says.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... as/terzake

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:I see a lot of excitement here but not much has changed since yesterday.
Have you guys actually read the press release from LH?
Where's the excitement?
LH has ordered NEO's, A359's and B779's for itself. None of them for the subsidiaries.
So don't dream too much, too soon. If anything, seeing how LH transferred the old A332's from LX to SN, SN will be where the LH group's fleet goes to die.
Why wouldn't SN just continue the rollover of the ancient A330 fleet with the younger SQ-birds?

Why would LX need new equipment? All of their A333's were factory new and the B77W's are still entering the company. The only reason why I could see LH ad a fairly odd type of airplane (accept for OS's 77E's which, accept for one, were already in OS's fleet when LH acquired the company) to the groups fleet is because they were in (urgent) need of it and could not wait until the equipment you name comew available.

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Flanker2 »

brabel wrote:In Terzake on the Flemish TV, it is said by Heinrich Großbongardt that SN would remain its name. (watch at 3:18)
Note that this person does not work for LH, but is an independent aviation expert.
He also focuses on the strong African netwerk that is important for LH.

A bit later Steven Decraene adds that it is not 100% sure that the brand will remain.
It is still very unclear, he says.

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... as/terzake
It doesn't look like the German guy knows what he's talking about.
The Belgian guy knows what he's talking about.

sean1982
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sean1982 »

Conti764 wrote:
sean1982 wrote: Besides the fact that Vueling does not do long haul ops it is exactly what SN does. It carries a mix of customers on codeshares with IB and BA. Mixed routes, mixed clientèle, mixed operations.
So basicly... Eurowings? ;)
Yes, that's why I believe that it will go that way once the belgian share holders have nothing to say anymore.

Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:
brabel wrote:In Terzake on the Flemish TV, it is said by Heinrich Großbongardt that SN would remain its name. (watch at 3:18). Note that this person does not work for LH, but is an independent aviation expert. He also focuses on the strong African netwerk that is important for LH. A bit later Steven Decraene adds that it is not 100% sure that the brand will remain. It is still very unclear, he says.
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... as/terzake
It doesn't look like the German guy knows what he's talking about.
The Belgian guy knows what he's talking about.
If we would ask 1.000 people in our trade "who is the best aviation expert?", I'm pretty sure that 99% of them would vote for the German guy:
http://expairtise.com
or
https://twitter.com/stevencranetv?lang=nl

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Flanker2 »

Why wouldn't SN just continue the rollover of the ancient A330 fleet with the younger SQ-birds?

Why would LX need new equipment? All of their A333's were factory new and the B77W's are still entering the company. The only reason why I could see LH ad a fairly odd type of airplane (accept for OS's 77E's which, accept for one, were already in OS's fleet when LH acquired the company) to the groups fleet is because they were in (urgent) need of it and could not wait until the equipment you name comew available.
About your first point, we'll see. I don't expect there to be a huge difference unless like I said, LH takes drastic measures with SN's African network (ie, splitting it off and selling it to IAG for instance). Actually, a IAG take-over might be better than a shift to FRA/MUC.

Why are you asking why LX need new equipment? I just suggested that when it came time to replace the A343's, LH chose the B77W's for them, while ordering Newgen's only for themselves, LH Passage.
It's except, not accept ;)
And once and for all, given how often we see it on the forum, it's "of course" and not "off course". "Off course" is the one that you use to explain how you ended up flying the aircraft into a mountain.



Don't overestimate the value of the African network. The African network only keeps 6-7 SN A330's busy every day. All the other destinations like YYZ, JFK and IAD are actually excellent Eurowing candidates. Actually some of the African routes can also fit under EW long haul, like DKR and ACC.

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

sean1982 wrote:
Conti764 wrote:
sean1982 wrote: Besides the fact that Vueling does not do long haul ops it is exactly what SN does. It carries a mix of customers on codeshares with IB and BA. Mixed routes, mixed clientèle, mixed operations.
So basicly... Eurowings? ;)
Yes, that's why I believe that it will go that way once the belgian share holders have nothing to say anymore.
Who knows... But there is no logic at all integrating SN into EW. I was comparing Vueling to Eurowings, btw, not to SN.

SN has a hub airport at the heart of Europe, in between the two hubs of LH's biggest competitor, has a very nice niche market in Africa, is building a solid reputation, has growing pax numbers,... It would be a grave mistake integrating SN into EW, accept for that mastermind idiot with his fetish for Eurowings in Frankfurt maybe...

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:About your first point, we'll see. I don't expect there to be a huge difference unless like I said, LH takes drastic measures with SN's African network (ie, splitting it off and selling it to IAG for instance). Actually, a IAG take-over might be better than a shift to FRA/MUC.
Indeed, we'll see... We all know Spohr is having wet dreams about Eurowings but I see no reason to integrate SN into EW. The company just had a nice profit for its size and is building positive brand recognition, especially on its long haul product. Brussels and BRU warrant a carrier like SN.
Why are you asking why LX need new equipment? I just suggested that when it came time to replace the A343's, LH chose the B77W's for them, while ordering Newgen's only for themselves, LH Passage.
The B77W is still a very capable bird and much sooner available then it's direct competitor, let alone its successor.

I only want to say that it doesn't have to mean much that LH is only ordering the newest equipment for itself. LX has recent A333's and B77W's coming in.
Don't overestimate the value of the African network. The African network only keeps 6-7 SN A330's busy every day. All the other destinations like YYZ, JFK and IAD are actually excellent Eurowing candidates. Actually some of the African routes can also fit under EW long haul, like DKR and ACC.
And yet it brings in heaps of money. For years it was the only reason why SN didn't go belly up. Besides, every development to Africa is subject to bilateral agreements. Why would LH surrender to AF/KLM by giving them a near monopoly on the continent that is yet to be fully discovered airtravelwise...?

If the value of the African network shouldn't be overestimated, then why sell it to IAG and thus paving the path for AF/KLM? It just isn't logical...

Klausenburg
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Klausenburg »

Well, if we are looking at the bigger picture, we understand that in Europe there are to many hubs compared to North America for instance. No real restructuring of hubs have taken place in Europe yet, as opposite to America. I belive that time will come. It doesn't matter so much that BRU is between AMS and CDG that the fact that DLH has no less then five hubs. It is too much by any measure and sooner or later the restructuring will take place (in the next 5 years or only in 10-15 - that's a different story). That is if we are letting the bias down. Also, from a German perspective, it doesn't matter so much that the model of SN works very well, it mainly shows the Belgian market is a price sensitive one and perfect fit for a mixed version of low-cost. And that means, the Belgian market is a perfect fit for Eurowings. The SN brand have no place in this regard. Otherwise, the long haul routes can be kept, the likes of IAD may be operated by EW, and for the African ones...it's a bit complicated. Of course, DLH would be plain stupid to just renounce to them or sell them to competition. But it doesn't have to do something with them just overnight. It can keep them operated by SN, and slowly, one by one can be moved to FRA/MUC. Because time will be needed for the agreements between Germany and the African countries. But in a few years, BRU as the hub for Africa of SN won't be needed any more...so then will be the end.

About Brussels being an important city, because of HQ of EU, NATO and other institutions. That's true. But that's not what it makes an airport a big hub. What is needed is a big airline, tha can grow that hub. And Belgium just doesn't have that. It would make no sense for DLH canibalize their routes from FRA/MUC. And also, it doesn't make much to spread resources so much with 5 hubs. Otherwise, for BRU a big base of EW con cover all the needs. But I repeat, the attractiveness of city, can make it a huge P2P destination. But that's not how it becomes hub. The main element of a succesful hub is the operator. In in BRU this element is missing. For instance Doha is not an important city by no means. But because of Qatar Airways...

Also, somehow here there is the underlining idea that for some reason, Luftahansa should love SN more then EW. But it's just the other way around. EW is the beloved project of Carsten Spohr and he would gladly sacrifice SN for helping EW to grow and succeed. Even if SN is not doing bad as being independent. It's a bit liek in a family, where even if the parents claim they have no bias, the reality is different. And they will do more things for the most beloved child, not for the brightes one, or for the most succesful one...

This being said, what we are speaking now are only prepositions. And we might not find out about the complete plans of DLH for BEL only after they will get the 100%. Maybe it would be better to take any anouncement made now with a grain of salt...

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

It is - in my point of view - difficult to compare Europe and the USA regarding the hubs consolidation, especially because of (geo)political reasons. Just keep in mind that Europe is not a federal state but still composed by countries driven by national interests... A "national" airport driven by a strong home (network) carrier still does make sense. BRU is also not a secondary/regional airport and does nowaday still operates at far level under its true development/potential! Quite all P2P destinations converted in codeshares through FRA/MUC will be operated by competitors operating directly to/from BRU, preventing LH to shift all SN Pax...
That being said, I hope that LH will run SN just the same as they are doing with LX and LH. Also, I do agree with the statement that the SN hybrid model is nearer to the EI one than to VY...

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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by sean1982 »

One of Spohr's greatest issues is the amount of staff SN employs:

Quick comparison:

SN: 3500 staff for 7,5 million passengers: 1 staff member for 2143 passengers.

FR: 10000 staff for 117000000: 1 staff member for 11700.

Spohr's has often said that the cost base for personal he wants to model eurowings on is the Ryanair model. SN has a lot of staff doing things that already exist within the LH group, so 2 people doing the same job. This is not going to last long as it is very uncompetitive, something I have warned off before.

Boavida
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Boavida »

Ansett wrote: My bet is that the following compromise will be achieved (but for how long ?) : all of SN's European operations will be integrated into EW. All SN long-haul operations will continue to operate as Brussels Airlines.
So that would reduce Brussels Airlines to an tiny airline with 9 (long haul) aircraft and only a handful of routes... What's the point of this?

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Darjeeling
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Darjeeling »

The first rumour has it that IAD flights won't be reinstated after the winter stop for the S17 schedules.

UA sales staff in BRU have seemingly already been briefed accordingly and the decision comes straight from Germany... It's not necessarily a bad one because after all SN needs to focus on AFI in 2017.

Note of moderator: Brussels Airlines strongly denies this. See reply of sn26567 next page.

Rwandair is also very close to sending their brand new A330s to BRU and CDG in 2017. The African market is booming and attracts a lot of competition. Air Canada is currently evaluating a couple of "Black" African destinations via Air Canada Rouge. On a side note, Alger will already be launched in 2017.

Interesting times ahead...

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by lumumba »

Darjeeling wrote:The first rumour has it that IAD flights won't be reinstated after the winter stop for the S17 schedules.

UA sales staff in BRU have seemingly already been briefed accordingly and the decision comes straight from Germany... It's not necessarily a bad one because after all SN needs to focus on AFI in 2017.

Rwandair is also very close to sending their brand new A330s to BRU and CDG in 2017. The African market is booming and attracts a lot of competition. Air Canada is currently evaluating a couple of "Black" African destinations via Air Canada Rouge. On a side note, Alger will already be launched in 2017.

Interesting times ahead...
But I thought that IAD was doing very well with Brussels!!!

If I remember well they wanna fly year around but UNITED did not accept it !?!?
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Klausenburg
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Klausenburg »

Boavida wrote:
Ansett wrote: My bet is that the following compromise will be achieved (but for how long ?) : all of SN's European operations will be integrated into EW. All SN long-haul operations will continue to operate as Brussels Airlines.
So that would reduce Brussels Airlines to an tiny airline with 9 (long haul) aircraft and only a handful of routes... What's the point of this?
The point would be exactly to not loose the African market while arrangements and agreements can be achieved by the German government in order to move the flights to FRA/MUC. This might take years. But at least DLH don't loose them to concurrence. When all the African destinations now operate from BRU will be operated from FRA/MUC, it will be mission acomplished for SN. The Belgian airline won't be needed at all. Meanwhile, European operations will be taken care of by the new EW base on BRU, which will be more or less the kind of base Ryanair or Vueling have there. Therefore, the end of BRU as a hub maybe won't come now, but in a few years. Which doesn't mean that the pax numbers won't continue to grow. But for long-haul, everything will be routed via FRA/MUC...

Also, because the exemple of Austrian was given, I don't belive there will still be any Austrian as separate entity in 10 years max, or any hub in VIE. Which, I repeat, won't mean that the number of pax won't grow any more there... Lufthansa will consolidate its hubs sooner or later and won't continue with 5 of them by any means...

Also, I seriously doubt that any long-haul flight operated by EW from CGN will be moved to BRU, because, you know...Germany.

Jetter
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Re: Lufthansa buys the remaining 55% of Brussels Airlines

Post by Jetter »

Boavida wrote:So that would reduce Brussels Airlines to an tiny airline with 9 (long haul) aircraft and only a handful of routes... What's the point of this?
In this thread it's often proclaimed the SN brand has value in Afrika. That could be the point of this, as the SN brand is hardly relevant in Europe (outside Belgium).

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