Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

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MKAirlines
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by MKAirlines »

mad_fab wrote:
Inquirer wrote: Apparently, the general rule would be that every company would be allowed to operate 1 single return flight, per day, per already existing destination of theirs, until full saturation of the airport's capacity.
I see one obvious loophole here: the feeders.
Let's take LH, they have like 10 BRU->FRA per day.
What prevent them to replace this 10 flights with 1 (very) early BRU -> FRA to bring all the connecting pax for this day in FRA (long connection - ok) and a very late FRA->BRU to bring back the pax coming back.
You upgrade the usual A320/CRJ to a 340/330 and voila! Still you'll get A LOT a pax early morning.

On the bright side, a feeder operated by an A340 would be fun :lol:
Indeed you will get an LHR style operation if you limit slots. would suggest to keep the frequency and all flights, operate till max capacity to BRU fase 1 etc.. balance to the regionals

mad_fab
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by mad_fab »

Looks like the union are blocking the re-opening:

http://www.lesoir.be/1167953/article/ac ... ls-airport

In short, the police want to check every person entering the building, BAC disagree.

RTM
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by RTM »

sean1982 wrote:Well, that's not how the game is played I'm afraid. Who is losing the most money matters nothing to the european rules
Regulation 95/93 on common rules for the allocation of slots at Community airports, article 4 wrote:
2. The Member State responsible for a schedules facilitated or coordinated
airport shall ensure:
(a) that at a schedules facilitated airport, the schedules facilitator acts under this Regulation in an independent, neutral, non-discriminatory and transparent manner;
(b) the independence of the coordinator at a coordinated airport by separating the coordinator functionally from any single interested party. The system of financing the coordinators' activities shall be such as to guarantee the coordinator's independent status;
(c) that the coordinator acts according to this Regulation in a neutral, non-discriminatory and transparent way.
In all fairness... I am not sure these rules apply here.
This is not about allocation of slots, they are allready allocated. This is about which slots are allowed to restart following the terrorst act. I don't know if there is anything about such a situation in the regulations, or if there is a precedent, but it would make sense that other parameters are to be taken into account. One of which could be the impact per airline.
It is clear that all airlines are impacted. But it is also clear that some airlines are impacted much havier than others. SN is for sure on top of the list in this regard. And probably the only airline in immediate danger of collapsing as a result should the airport remain closed.
As for FR, BRU is a relative small part of their total operation, and they do have a suitable alternative closeby. In all honesty, that should be a factor to consider. Yes it is costing them money and inconvenience, but it is peanuts in comparisson to others. I trust the airport to take these parameters into account, and come up with some sort of fair plan.
I hope that FR will not make a big hooha out of it, and try to take advantage of the terrorist attacks, or even try to knock out competition over it. I trust even MOL has more decency than that.

SN539
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by SN539 »

I think FR and SN are in the same ship here: the "Operational nightmare - Brussels".
Sorry, I have nothing against FR but I think their situation is totally different than SN . Why ? Because FR already operated from Charleroi (or Brussels South :) ) as main base in Belgium. So they only had to transfer their operations from Brussels (their second base in Belgium in terms of pax) to their most important base in Belgium. They already had all needed support (check in, staff, ...) in Charleroi. Like if BA had to transfer ops from LHR to LGW.
Travelling from Brussels to Charleroi iso Zaventem is of course a little bit longer but there are frequent bus shuttle and the price difference between the shuttle bus or the train to Zaventem must not be very important (I didn't check, sorry). So I think that due to those circumstances, FR passengers were the less impacted by the events in BRU. Just go to Brussels South Airport (Ryanair base) iso of Brussels National Airport. Only my opinion of course ... (Sean, don't shoot me, I'm against violence ;) )
Last edited by sn26567 on 31 Mar 2016, 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected BBCode

mad_fab
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by mad_fab »

SN539 wrote: Sorry, I have nothing against FR but I think their situation is totally different than SN .
My comment is related to the "new slots plan" where they'll have to re-organize their fleet, not the current situation ;)

Jetter
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Jetter »

RTM wrote:In all fairness... I am not sure these rules apply here.
They do. It doesn't state that the schedules facilitator has to act independent, neutral, non-discriminatory and transparent just when distributing slots. It states that is has to act that way, thus meaning in general and not limited to a specific task.

Passenger
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Passenger »

mad_fab wrote:Looks like the union are blocking the re-opening:
http://www.lesoir.be/1167953/article/ac ... ls-airport
In short, the police want to check every person entering the building, BAC disagree.
The Belgian CAA also disagrees with the police union.

webstermc
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by webstermc »

It seem that the unions received a new proposal: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... stel.dhtml

In short:
- 200 extra agents (mostly for screenings)
- a new screenings of all employees at the ariport

I's not clear if the new proposal contains something about the demand of the unions that all passengers should be checked before entering the airport.

Unions are looking at the new proposal at this moment.

sean1982
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by sean1982 »

SN539 wrote: I think FR and SN are in the same ship here: the "Operational nightmare - Brussels"

Sorry, I have nothing against FR but I think their situation is totally different than SN . Why ? Because FR already operated from Charleroi (or Brussels South :) ) as main base in Belgium. So they only had to transfer their operations from Brussels (their second base in Belgium in terms of pax) to their most important base in Belgium. They already had all needed support (check in, staff, ...) in Charleroi. Like if BA had to transfer ops from LHR to LGW.
Travelling from Brussels to Charleroi iso Zaventem is of course a little bit longer but there are frequent bus shuttle and the price difference between the shuttle bus or the train to Zaventem must not be very important (I didn't check, sorry). So I think that due to those circumstances, FR passengers were the less impacted by the events in BRU. Just go to Brussels South Airport (Ryanair base) iso of Brussels National Airport. Only my opinion of course ... (Sean, don't shoot me, I'm against violence ;) )

In the mean time the crew are contractually based in BRU though and are thus flying out of base, which means that transport time to the airport of CRL is counted in full as duty time. This limits BRU based crew with 4 hrs less than the normal duty time limitations that apply. Since FR operates mostly 4 sector days or 2 long sector days this is a logistical nightmare with crew having to be put up in hotels in CRL and (contractually) being paid an overnight allowance. Add to that the transport of crew and passengers (who can claim their costs back) and you have a very expensive situation. On top of that there are quite a few cancellations. Its not just simply pick up and move to another base (eventhough we were operating there before)

convair
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by convair »

sean1982 wrote: In the mean time the crew are contractually based in BRU though and are thus flying out of base, which means that transport time to the airport of CRL is counted in full as duty time. This limits BRU based crew with 4 hrs less than the normal duty time limitations that apply. Since FR operates mostly 4 sector days or 2 long sector days this is a logistical nightmare with crew having to be put up in hotels in CRL and (contractually) being paid an overnight allowance. Add to that the transport of crew and passengers (who can claim their costs back) and you have a very expensive situation. On top of that there are quite a few cancellations. Its not just simply pick up and move to another base (eventhough we were operating there before)
It's certainly not negligible but I'm sure these extra costs are peanuts compared to what SN is currently bearing!

convair
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by convair »

webstermc wrote:It seem that the unions received a new proposal: http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... stel.dhtml

In short:
- 200 extra agents (mostly for screenings)
- a new screenings of all employees at the ariport

I's not clear if the new proposal contains something about the demand of the unions that all passengers should be checked before entering the airport.

Unions are looking at the new proposal at this moment.
And what about the fitness center, the sauna and the "masseuses"?!?

Welcome to the Banana Republic of Belgium where the unions decide everything about your way of life!

I remember the nationwide ATC strike in the US in the 80s. Reagan fired them all with one signature. The next day, the situation was back to normal!

Poor Belgium!

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sn26567
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by sn26567 »

It is even more surprising that police are allowed to strike! In Belgium the military are not allowed to strike, and the former Gendarmerie (who were military) by the same token were also not allowed to strike.

With regard to the police, the Minister of Interior can order striking policemen to report at work for some specific tasks for the time necessary to fulfil that task. Jan Jambon could thus have used his powers to block that strike, especially since it is of vital importance for some airlines and the airport to resume operations as soon as possible to avoid further economic damage to the country.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Acid-drop
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Re: Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Acid-drop »

You mean the guy that should have resigned 3 times this week already ?
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

convair
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Re: Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by convair »

Acid-drop wrote:You mean the guy that should have resigned 3 times this week already ?
Indeed, as long as he is in charge, it would be his job to do it.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Boeing767copilot »

Tomorrow the unions will take action in advance to the headquarters of Brussels Airport. "I expect it will be there an outright clash between staff and management," said ACV after jumped negotiations this evening.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :shock:

PttU
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by PttU »

sn26567 wrote:
koja78 wrote:@mad_fab isn't there a law against these short intra-belgium flights?
No, only a Walloon decree forbidding flights between CRL and LGG.
What's the reason behind such decree? :shock:
mad_fab wrote:On the bright side, a feeder operated by an A340 would be fun :lol:
A bit like http://luchtzak.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=58206 ?

convair
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Re: Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by convair »

This is the best proof of bad faith they could have offered! They don't need to do that: if they stay home, the airport cannot operate anyway...

Unless the government takes its responsibility and requisitions them...

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Tompompier
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Tompompier »

Acid-drop wrote:Tompompier, please share your view and if its hard its hard. Its a forum to discuss, if everybody agrees, its boring.
My view... well my humble opinion is: there's a lot of would be airline/airport/company managers on here, who think that the rebuilding of this airport terminal is just like rebuilding a burned garden cabin.

I'm just a firefighter, and my mind only contains 'boereverstand', which means I see the work that needs to be done to reopen the departure hall. And the work that needs to be done is slightly more then some cleaning and new ceilings...
You can't send pax through a warzone. So the management has been thinking of alternatives, which they found in the tents. Not the Ideal situation, but it is what it is for the time being. Yes, the departure hall is a true warzone. These were not fire crackers that have detonated over there.

A lot of airport staff have been working very hard in the passed week to make it possible to get this airport reopened as soon as possible, and they just don't deserve to be bashed like some members are doing on here. I invite you all to do better.
We all want our airport, and workspace to be reopened very soon. Shame that 3 big time losers can do so much harm and damage. Let our thoughts go to those who lost their lives, and got hurt.
And that departure hall: let them take time to do it right, so technically everything works fine, without any technical problems.

Greetz

Tompompier (who still loves his airport job)

convair
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Re: Reopening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by convair »

Thank you for this message, Tompompier! For avoidance of any doubt, let me very strongly state here that I for one deeply respect what you, your colleagues and the BRU people in general have been doing, are doing, and will undoubtedly continue to do for us all!

Respect!

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Conti764
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Re: Re-opening Brussels Airport after the 22/03/2016 terror attacks

Post by Conti764 »

sn26567 wrote:It is even more surprising that police are allowed to strike! In Belgium the military are not allowed to strike, and the former Gendarmerie (who were military) by the same token were also not allowed to strike.

With regard to the police, the Minister of Interior can order striking policemen to report at work for some specific tasks for the time necessary to fulfil that task. Jan Jambon could thus have used his powers to block that strike, especially since it is of vital importance for some airlines and the airport to resume operations as soon as possible to avoid further economic damage to the country.
Indeed, police can go on strike. But since it is a public service charged with public security it is only logical that some base tasks have to be executed (intervention comes to mind...) And as such, every single local police zone in Belgium and every single federal unit tasked with intervention has to keep a number of officers stand by which can be summoned to go to work by their superiors.
However, and Jambon knows it too, every police officer has the right to report sick as well. So if every officer at the airport reports in sick, you have a major problem. And yes, when summoned, those officers have to report to designated doctors to evaluate their condition, but still it is a organisational nightmare and even then you are not sure those officers will return to work. They could faint sickness to the control doctor or re-report sick (!). Simple as that... And their is no way anyone could discipline them, it's just a case of ones own doctor saying someone is to sick to work. This can only be contested by control doctors, but nobody can say the personal doctor was wrong about his diagnosis...

So all in all, you either have to count on the police officers goodwill (as done with some recent statewide police strikes) or you do have to come to an agreement with the other party, just to not have an even worse relationship...
Last edited by Conti764 on 01 Apr 2016, 01:16, edited 1 time in total.

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