Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

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saratoga
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by saratoga »

I was always very sceptical with the share deal of "lufthi" in SN. I work a lot in Germany and already knew how these German management would think. "We are german and you are just the stupid little belgian". They dont adapt to others but you have to adapt to them. Look to the german pilots entering SN. Do anything of those speak dutch or french???? But if you want to enter a german company no matter how good your skills are......no speaking german, no getting in!!!

Who are the others owning 55% of SN? For some reason i hope they will block the take over of the other shares. I see the SN brand simply dissappear in the future. Very pitty because i think it is coping very well with the competition, especially with ryanair and above all, it was getting a good brand again recovering from poor years.

sean1982
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by sean1982 »

saratoga wrote:I was always very sceptical with the share deal of "lufthi" in SN. I work a lot in Germany and already knew how these German management would think. "We are german and you are just the stupid little belgian". They dont adapt to others but you have to adapt to them. Look to the german pilots entering SN. Do anything of those speak dutch or french???? But if you want to enter a german company no matter how good your skills are......no speaking german, no getting in!!!

Who are the others owning 55% of SN? For some reason i hope they will block the take over of the other shares. I see the SN brand simply dissappear in the future. Very pitty because i think it is coping very well with the competition, especially with ryanair and above all, it was getting a good brand again recovering from poor years.

The remaining 55% cannot block the LH take over. LH has the full right to buy the company if they wish to do so as this was part of the deals with the loans given to SN. They have the gun against the head.
Or LH takes over and does whatever it wants, or LH pulls out and SN would have to re pay such an amount of money that it would be instantly bankrupt (unless they find someone to take them over and who wnts to cover their debts)

Passenger
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Passenger »

Boavida wrote:I am very worried. Look what those Germans did with Jetairfly. They scrapped the Belgian brand and changed it to the meaningless generic "TUI", and even scrapped all Belgian flags from the planes! I really hope SN isn't going the same way, but I fear the worst.

Just look at this reaction from a German on Airliners.net:
It's a real possibility and quite frankly not very far fetched, considering Belgium is pretty much a non-country and EU-rized anyway, it's the perfect spot to do something like this.
Let's not forget that a lot of posts on a lot of forums come from people working for a direct competitor. You don't have to look very far in this topic here to see how far some of those competitors go - example by using the word "bankruptcy" for an airline that made profit in 2015.

sean1982
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by sean1982 »

yeah sure, cause operational profit has a lot to do with the financial state of an airline. The fact that I work for a competitor has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever.

Passenger
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Passenger »

The deal between Lufthansa and Brussels Airlines is a friendly partnership. That's totally different from a hostile take over bid. Example: Ryanair versus Aer Lingus, were Aer Lingus had indeed the gun against their head.

On top of that, the LH/SN deal was negiocated by some top industrial leaders and top bankers, and I'm pretty sure SN's lawyers have foreseen all possibilities that are brought up here.

I prefer the neutral analysis from Luk De Wilde, senior aviation journalist, on VRT Flemish radio this morning:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2564979

Jetter
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Jetter »

Passenger wrote:On top of that, the LH/SN deal was negiocated by some top industrial leaders and top bankers, and I'm pretty sure SN's lawyers have foreseen all possibilities that are brought up here.
Belgian top bankers from Dexia or Fortis? We all know about their qualities and whether or not the have foreseen all possibilities. Oh, wait, all biggest Belgian banks of that time are dissolved due to the incompetence of their 'top bankers'.

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travellover
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by travellover »

Is a low cost european model compatible with the hub and spoke feeder model of SN? The uppermost comes from the long haul C business class.How could SN long haul transfer passengers accept to travel on a low cost brand on the european network?
Cheers

suomalainen
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by suomalainen »

Just one remark in this. SN has a long standing reputation in Africa. Even during the different crisisses the kept on flying. And LH lost much of that during the last years. So will LH destroy the gold of SN ? Because working the german way in Africa will never ever work ! I worked several years C/I of SN where we did also LX and OS. For the latter 2 we had to follow very strict rules. While we even got a special course how to deal with African pax meanly to get some cultural understanding. Which helped a lot of thinking in advantage of the pax and still follow the rules. That would never work with germans. Even in my current job is see that belgians are much more flexibel in working with others then germans whom in my opinion are very 'rule following' !

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Conti764
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Conti764 »

An alternative I could see fit for SN, since SN does not escape the reality of a loss making European division like many other airlines, is that indeed the bulk of EU-destinations will be transfered to Eurowings, while SN retains some key short and medium haul destinations (LHR, TLV, DME,...) and select long haul flights from BRU.

We can't be naive, the only airlines making profit from intra-Europe flying are the LCC's. I can understand LH willing to take a piece of that pie as well.

SN has its niche, being Africa, which might prove a life saver for SN, albeit in a trimmed down size. No other LH-subsidary had the same brand recognition SN has in Africa, so LH will not be so stupid to just throw that away.

Apart from Africa, their might be another niche for SN to develop. We see that both KL and AF have a near monopoly to some destinations in or around the carribean, the fares are accordingly. Having their hub - BRU - right in between AMS and CDG, might present an opportunity for SN to develop a Carribean network themselves, stealing market share from KL and AF by undercutting their fares and building brand recognition in that region. With a smart advertising campaign they might attract enough customers to fill some A332's to do traingulars like they do in Africa.

If LH has such plans in mind for SN, they might ramp up the rollover of SN's ageing A330 fleet by SQ's birds - like tolipanebas was telling a few weeks ago - and in the long term place an order for NEO's to reduce costs for SN giving them more room to breathe en develop a long haul market from BRU, albeit without interferring with LH's FRA ops...

So...

1) Transfer the bulk of EU flights to EW.
2) Retain some key flights with a reduced fleet of A32S equipment (maybe with a dedicated C-class since there is where SN is buidling the biggest recognition).
3) Allow SN to develop a long haul market from BRU by expanding their AFI-ops and looking for new opportunities (Caribbean,...)
4) Speed up the rollover of the A330's with newer equipment from SQ, thus lowering operating costs and increasing turnover.
5) Place an order for A330NEO's on the longer term...

I believe SN might have a future within the LH Group, although I don't know if LH sees it the same way. Right now, they leave some fruits ripe to pick by their biggest competitor (AF/KL), which SN might disturb on behalf of the LH Group. The focus must be put on l/h from BRU and some key medium to short haul routes...

Flanker2
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Flanker2 »

Why build the Carribean network out of BRU? LH can do that out of any of their other hubs with Eurowings.

See what they did in Vienna. I don't know what our Austrian friends are thinking letting LH do whatever they please.

There are savings to be made by removing maintenance, back office and duplicate ground staff.
Perhaps as much as 50 million Euro per year.
They could just continue to operate with the Brussels Airlines brand but Eurowings AOC in Europe and the U.S., keeping SN only for the African flights.

The result will be a social blood bath.
Mr. Tolipanebas (Where is he by the way?) and his friends would be replaced by German crews on Eurowings contracts. B.house employees will be replaced by German employees in DUS.
A fraction of Building 32 and hangar 41 employees can thank god if LH Technik gives them a lasting job.

I think that it's selfish for the management and non-LH shareholding to say that they stand behind a stand-alone SN after giving LH all the power to do whatever it wants to with an exclusive call option, without plan B.

Anybody know if the current board can vote on a dillution of the shareholding, making the call option obsolete? Or is there a provision against that in the LH deal?

Last but not least... 25 million profit? With or without subsidies?

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Conti764
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:Why build the Carribean network out of BRU? LH can do that out of any of their other hubs with Eurowings.
Why not build the Carribean network out of BRU? More capacity than DUS (EW's closest hub) and better connecting traffic. Besides, AF and KLM are still full service legacy carriers, except for some price sensitive tourists, why would anyone opt to switch to some LCC?

SN long haul is still a full service carrier with a traditional Y- and C-class and can easier compete with AF and KL. FRA is too far away to attract many customers who now choose AF/KL. SN has a lower cost structure then AF and can attack the near monopoly the francodutch have in the Carribean. At this moment, AF is a liability to KL...

Passenger
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:Why build the Carribean network out of BRU? LH can do that out of any of their other hubs with Eurowings.

See what they did in Vienna. I don't know what our Austrian friends are thinking letting LH do whatever they please.

There are savings to be made by removing maintenance, back office and duplicate ground staff.
Perhaps as much as 50 million Euro per year.
They could just continue to operate with the Brussels Airlines brand but Eurowings AOC in Europe and the U.S., keeping SN only for the African flights.

The result will be a social blood bath.
Mr. Tolipanebas (Where is he by the way?) and his friends would be replaced by German crews on Eurowings contracts. B.house employees will be replaced by German employees in DUS.
A fraction of Building 32 and hangar 41 employees can thank god if LH Technik gives them a lasting job.

I think that it's selfish for the management and non-LH shareholding to say that they stand behind a stand-alone SN after giving LH all the power to do whatever it wants to with an exclusive call option, without plan B.

Anybody know if the current board can vote on a dillution of the shareholding, making the call option obsolete? Or is there a provision against that in the LH deal?

Last but not least... 25 million profit? With or without subsidies?
Flanker2 wrote:Mr. Tolipanebas (Where is he by the way?)
I guess tolipanebas is thinking the same as I do: "Wow, that's a lot of nonsense in one post. That guy really has no idea what's going on between LH and SN.".

Jetter
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Jetter »

Flanker2 wrote:See what they did in Vienna. I don't know what our Austrian friends are thinking letting LH do whatever they please.
It's pretty simple: small legacy/network carriers are hardly viable standalone. You pretend like Austrian/Brussels had a choice, while it was pretty much a choice between going bankrupt or being taken over. Where do you think SN would stand now without the loans of LH? Even KLM merged/was taken over while it was much better managed than SN ever has been.

sean1982
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote: I guess tolipanebas is thinking the same as I do: "Wow, that's a lot of nonsense in one post. That guy really has no idea what's going on between LH and SN.".
And you, the expert, does? Please ... Enlighten us!

Passenger
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote: I guess tolipanebas is thinking the same as I do: "Wow, that's a lot of nonsense in one post. That guy really has no idea what's going on between LH and SN.".
And you, the expert, does? Please ... Enlighten us!
I listen to what the specialists say, like senior aviation journalist Luk De Wilde (*). And like professor Vandevoorde, Department of Transport, Universiteit Antwerpen, this weekend on Kanaal Z: "Lufthansa uses Brussels Airlines mainly to counter Ryanair at Brussels (**). Also, the Africa network Brussels Airlines has established is very valuable and Lufthansa will never give that up".

Source:
http://kanaalz.knack.be/nieuws/brussels ... 61557.html

(*) Luk De Wilde:
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2564979

(**) that's exactly what I've said already before, isn't it Sean? Brussels Airlines has proven how legacy airlines can counter Ryanair at major airports.

convair
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by convair »

Conti764 wrote:An alternative I could see fit for SN, since SN does not escape the reality of a loss making European division like many other airlines, is that indeed the bulk of EU-destinations will be transfered to Eurowings, while SN retains some key short and medium haul destinations (LHR, TLV, DME,...) and select long haul flights from BRU.

......

So...

1) Transfer the bulk of EU flights to EW.
2) Retain some key flights with a reduced fleet of A32S equipment (maybe with a dedicated C-class since there is where SN is buidling the biggest recognition).
3) Allow SN to develop a long haul market from BRU by expanding their AFI-ops and looking for new opportunities (Caribbean,...)
4) Speed up the rollover of the A330's with newer equipment from SQ, thus lowering operating costs and increasing turnover.
5) Place an order for A330NEO's on the longer term...

I believe SN might have a future within the LH Group, although I don't know if LH sees it the same way. Right now, they leave some fruits ripe to pick by their biggest competitor (AF/KL), which SN might disturb on behalf of the LH Group. The focus must be put on l/h from BRU and some key medium to short haul routes...
I generally agree with your "plan" (I suggested, a few pages back, a partial carve-out of SN's europan operations to be brought into EW), although I'm afraid you're asking for too much at the same time (Caribbean should come at a later stage after reinforcing the Afi and N-Atl activities IMHO).

LH should realize that dissolving SN in EW at once is a one-way street, whilst a partial carve-out can be adjusted later in light of its results.

Anyway, I can't believe they would be stupid enough to forego the goodwill SN has created over the last 10 years, not to mention the Sabena one, even if the latter is largely forgotten or unknown to many people.

LJ
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by LJ »

Conti764 wrote:Why not build the Carribean network out of BRU? More capacity than DUS (EW's closest hub) and better connecting traffic. Besides, AF and KLM are still full service legacy carriers, except for some price sensitive tourists, why would anyone opt to switch to some LCC?
Because the Germans probably prefer CGN above driving to BRU. As for AF/KL, they don't have that many flights to the Carribean which aren't depending on heavy O&D traffic (HAV probably the exception). Don't see how BRU can play a part in this market.

LH bought into SN for two reasons, its AFI network (other than oil related markets) and to ensure its marketplace in BeNeLux and Northern France.
Conti764 wrote:I believe SN might have a future within the LH Group, although I don't know if LH sees it the same way.
I think LH knows. They've probably all the figures and know exactly how to get the most out of SN.

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Conti764
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by Conti764 »

LJ wrote:
Conti764 wrote:Why not build the Carribean network out of BRU? More capacity than DUS (EW's closest hub) and better connecting traffic. Besides, AF and KLM are still full service legacy carriers, except for some price sensitive tourists, why would anyone opt to switch to some LCC?
Because the Germans probably prefer CGN above driving to BRU. As for AF/KL, they don't have that many flights to the Carribean which aren't depending on heavy O&D traffic (HAV probably the exception). Don't see how BRU can play a part in this market.
I am not talking about Germany. The Netherlands and (Northern-)France and their O&D connections with the Carribean are exactly what I'm talking about... SN's l/h service is no less then AF or KL, on the contrary. With BRU conveniently located right in between CDG and AMS, SN could undercut their rates and offer cheaper flights to the Carribean, gain another niche market and disturb KL and AF in what nowadays is their sole playground.

I don't say ot has to happen next year, but imho it should be a serious option for LH if they fully acquire SN...

flymd11
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by flymd11 »

I am not particularly convinced about the potential for SN to develop a Caribbean network as way to grow and become sustainable.
Passenger wrote:
sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote: (**) that's exactly what I've said already before, isn't it Sean? Brussels Airlines has proven how legacy airlines can counter Ryanair at major airports.
FR has been operating from BRU for less than 2 years. For much of this time, they have had 4 based aircraft competing with 40+ SN aircraft. Is it a bit early to be seeing anything as "proof"?

LJ
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Re: Interview of CEO Gustin: Brussels Airlines renamed Eurowings? ...and other topics

Post by LJ »

Conti764 wrote:I am not talking about Germany. The Netherlands and (Northern-)France and their O&D connections with the Carribean are exactly what I'm talking about... SN's l/h service is no less then AF or KL, on the contrary. With BRU conveniently located right in between CDG and AMS, SN could undercut their rates and offer cheaper flights to the Carribean, gain another niche market and disturb KL and AF in what nowadays is their sole playground.
The Dutch won't go to BRU as well. We've seen flights from BRU to CUR in the past, but they weren't a success and never lasted long. KLM's Carribean network consists of BON, CUR, AUA, SXM and HAV. Of these only HAV is not O&D related. AF has a litlle bit more, but are O&D (VFR and touroperating) related as well (hence why AF sends its COI 77Ws to the Carribean and served a differnt set of destinations than KLM, SXM and HAV being the exception). Moreover, the market is heavlily dominated by tourcompanies selling tourpackages (with the exception of HAV). Given the already (sometimes very) low yield of this kind of traffic you wouldn't want to waste an aircraft, not to mention that SN won't get any of these revenue guaranteed contracts from touroperators as they cannot provide the frequency/capacity these touroperator desire (i.e. Corendon has 100 and upwards daily seats a day on KLM flights to CUR/BON/AUA).

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