koninckske wrote:
Every Jetairfly flights is scheduled and they are not charter flights.
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I don't really agree. I am sure the most of the seat's are filled in with pax who booked a holiday arrangement via a jetair center. Then the remaining unused seats are then sold for a cheap price.
But then again, it does not make a difference, an aicraft is making noise anyway. I think the airport should develop more as a business airport and get more jet charter competitors, good fbo's, fuel suppliers and maintenance facilities for bizz jets.(perhaps using the VLM hangar???).
I always wanted to see more scheduled air services but i think a lot of operators have proven in the mean time that succes is very very limited and that there is no big potential for that.
Even one of the airport's most ardent enemies must have said something like "things were better in the days when it was only a business airport" - a pity she didn't realise earlier ...
Passenger wrote:When ANR wants to counter that, they should amend the take off time for jet aircraft from 06h30 to a more decent 08h00. As a precaution, not in defence when it's too late. Even when this would mean only 2 Jetairfly destinations are possible each day.
Maybe it is not profitable to operate an E190 only twice per day? That would mean that they might close their ANR base and move the aircraft to BRY, OST or CRL.
DIBO wrote:
Examples: Friday morning: departure to Barcelona: engines 06h32, take off 06h40 towards Borsbeek/Vremde. Friday evening: landing from Ibiza at 23h27. This morning: departure to Alicante: engines 06h32 engines, take off 06h35 towards the city. Even when you don't live nearby the airport, such take off wakes up your children who sleep with windows open.
I'm a very light sleeper in an older apartment ("single glass"-windows) and I live almost on the airport. (around softbal-club the Squirells). Those early JAF-flights don't bother me, most of the time I don't hear them at all. On weekdays it's possible I hear them because I wake up around that time, but they are gone before I can think about it. I was not aware yesterday-evening late a JAF landed for example, and the one from this morning I didn't noticed at all.
The planes we hear are the small ones from BAFA and private owners but I think the traffic on the road here is more noisy.
When I was a kid I lived in Broechem, JAF (and others) turn above the garden but you only hear the smaller ones.
I don't think it's that bad, when you choose a place to live you always have noise. When it's not a plane it will be a train, or a road, or barking dogs or even the sound of kids playing. People who choose to buy a house in the neigborhood have to think about the possibility of plane-noise. You don't buy a house next to a railway and cry over the trains... Thats pure logic (for me)
DIBO wrote:Joking apart, recently EGIS and JAF are doing their best to increase the support for the Green and the 'close the airport' campaign. There was a lot of support for the JAF flights out of Antwerp when they started. People like the convenience of the nearby, cosy, little airport. But that was the period when early JAF arrivals were around 9am at the earliest, and the last departures before 8pm. Now there are flights in the evening departing at 10:30pm, arriving up to 11:40pm (delayed flight + extending aerodrome opening hrs.) and in the morning arriving just minutes after the first runway inspection has finished at 6:35am and departing around 7am. Even on Sunday mornings!! JAF, you are waking up children/people during the week and whole families during the weekend. Any idea how silent a city can be at 6:30am on a Sunday, an how much noise an arrival over the city or a departure towards the city and over the suburbs can create!!?? And I am a total aviation fan, 100% pro aviation, 200% pro EBAW, and totally love the E190 as a spotter and a passenger. But I tried my whole live to be objective and fair. And the airport was there before anybody else. But not with these very early/late arrivals/departures. Sabena's 737-200's were massively more louder, but didn't fly in the weekend (and I don't remember such early departures during the week). And the exceptional early morning departures to Jersey of up to 6 DC-6 each with 4x P&W Double Wasp radials, was music, not noise at all. So JAF, if you care about ANR, think twice about your schedules...or buy some CS-100's...
I have to agree with DIBO: when Egis and Jetairfly continue like this, they endanger the future of the airport. In 2008, the minister has limited operations to limit the noise harassment for the region: the number of training flights was reduced from max 23.000/year (2009) to max 10.000/year (2022), plus a limitation to 09h-19h, plus no touch and go’s on Sundays. These limitations are now undone by commercial aviation.
For commercial reasons, Jetairfly plans three return flights each day. But that can only be realized via an early departure and a late arrival. Although Jetairfly respects the legal limit (06h30-23h00 except delayed flights), many thousands of people nowadays suffer from noise they never ever had before. Examples: Friday morning: departure to Barcelona: engines 06h32, take off 06h40 towards Borsbeek/Vremde. Friday evening: landing from Ibiza at 23h27. This morning: departure to Alicante: engines 06h32 engines, take off 06h35 towards the city. Even when you don't live nearby the airport, such take off wakes up your children who sleep with windows open.
Antwerp Airport has a milieuvergunning (environment licence) for a business airport with leisure activities. Egis is flirting with this: they’re changing the airport into a leisure airport with business activities. When LOT would fly to ANR, the airport enemies have another legal argument to ask the Raad van State / Conseil D'Etat for the cancellation of the environment licence. Let's not forget that most of those committees are filled with eco fundamentalists who don't care about employment or business importance.
When ANR wants to counter that, they should amend the take off time for jet aircraft from 06h30 to a more decent 08h00. As a precaution, not in defence when it's too late. Even when this would mean only 2 Jetairfly destinations are possible each day.
On Saturday the first JAF leaves at 0630 for Alicante, returning and flying to Malaga and back, arriving back at Antwerp at 1915, but waiting to 2215 to leave for Nador. If they could shift the Alicante and Malaga rotation an hour, leaving Antwerp only at 0730, that could be an improvement for the neighbors.
On Mondays the first JAF leaves for a return to and from Malaga, followed by a return Palma de Mallorca, arriving in Antwerp at 1915. Moving these two flights half an hour or an hour would also be a small effort.
On Tuesday the first flight is only at 0700, returning from Alicante around 1230, but then waiting for 1725 before making a trip to Rome and back, landing at 2225, without delay... I guess there are no free slots in Rome for a trip half an hour earlier?
On Thursday the flight to Rome used to be leaving Antwerp at 1335, returning at 1835, but now it's waiting for 1645 to leave from Antwerp and returning only at 2210, although the previous flight (from PMI) already arrived at Antwerp at 1230.
...
Adjusting the schedule just a tiny bit won't change the mind of all the haters, but starting a jet engine around 0630 or 0700 could make a change big enough for some neighbours...
Touch and go’s are not “as you please” anymore. They are limited in time and limited in numbers by two legislations: the ANR Environment Licence (2004, adapted in 2008) and the Noise Action Plan for Antwerp (“Actieplan Geluidshinder Antwerpen”) from the Flemish Department LNE (Leefmilieu Natuur en Energie) from April 2011. An airport is also a “Level 1 Risk” for the general “Vlarem” environment legislation. This means that an airport must also work towards improvement. Noise measurement is a technical issue (see “Geluidscontouren” a bit further). I’ve read a few documents about this; some people say it’s the total of all individual measures that matters, others say it’s the general picture that matters.
Antwerp Airport is now using the opening hours as per the legal limit: open for business as from 06h30, so an ERJ-190 can start its engines at 06h31. Anti-airport lobbygroups say that these Jetairfly flights are against the legal obligation “towards improvement”. Let's not forget these eco-fundamentalists already managed to have the initial licence from 2004 cancelled by the Raad van State / Conseil D'Etat in 2008. Therefore my suggestion: a reduction from three to two ERJ flights and a first take off only around 08h30 will be seen as proof of goodwill. And do it now, because once the left-wing eco-fundamentalists have filed their complaint, it's gonna be too late.
Against one Luchtzak.be member saying that he/she doesn’t hear those Embraers taking off at 06h35, there is one Luchtzak member who says he/she does hear them (example: I do, and I live at 2 kms from ANR). But more important: many people say these Embraers wake up their children. Let’s not deny this please. And let’s not argue “when you buy a house near an airport…”. It’s people living far away from the airport that are now also complaining. People who never heared VLM’s F50’s. People living on the Jan Van Rijswijcklaan, people living near the Nachtegalenpark, people living in Hoboken, people living in Ranst.
Openingsuren
De Luchthaven Antwerpen is ´s nachts gesloten voor alle luchtverkeer van 23u tot 6u30. Uitzonderingen zijn enkel mogelijk voor dringende medische vluchten en landende vliegtuigen met vertraging, waarvan de landing gepland is om ten laatste 22u30.
Geluidscontouren
Jaarlijks worden de geluidscontouren en het aantal potentieel sterk gehinderden berekend. Zowel het aantal potentieel sterk gehinderden als het aantal inwoners binnen de LDN-geluidscontour en binnen de LAeq-daggeluidscontour van 55 dB(A) mag niet stijgen ten opzichte van de blootstellingscijfers van het referentiejaar 2000. De jaarrapporten van de geluidscontouren en het geluidsmeetnet worden jaarlijks voorgesteld door het Laboratorium voor Akoestiek en Thermische Fysica van de KULeuven. Binnen de 2 jaar na het verlenen van de milieuvergunning dient de exploitant bij de afdeling Milieuvergunningen een studie door een door de afdeling Milieuvergunningen aanvaarde deskundige in die een methodiek aanreikt die toelaat om de geluidsimpact van de luchthaven Antwerpen op een meer adequate wijze te evalueren dan het INM-model.
Klachtenbehandeling
Ontvangen klachten worden geregistreerd in het klachtenregistratie- en opvolgingssysteem. Klachten kunnen zowel mondeling als schriftelijk ingediend worden. De milieuoverlegcommissie komt tweemaal per jaar samen om het klachtenregister te bespreken, mogelijkheden ter verbetering voor te stellen en de omwonenden en overheden in te lichten over de gevoerde en te voeren milieupolitiek.
Trainingsvluchten
Om de hinder voor omwonenden te beperken, mogen maximum twee toestellen gelijktijdig in circuit zijn. Daarbij zal de exploitant de luchtverkeersleiding verzoeken om maximaal een afwisseling van de gekozen vliegcircuits toe te passen. Op werkdagen (van maandag tot vrijdag) en op zaterdag zijn trainingsvluchten toegelaten vanaf 9 uur tot 19 uur, lokale tijd. Op zon- en feestdagen zijn geen touchandgo vluchten (circuitvliegen) toegelaten. Elke individuele touch-and-go wordt als vlucht beschouwd.
Het totaal aantal vluchten voor training wordt beperkt als volgt:
a) in 2009 en 2010: maximaal 23.000 vluchten per jaar;
b) in 2011 en 2012: maximaal 21.000 vluchten per jaar;
c) in 2013: maximaal 19.000 vluchten per jaar;
d) van 2014 tot en met 2018: maximaal 12.000 vluchten per jaar;
e) van 2019 tot en met 2022: maximaal 10.000 vluchten per jaar;
f) vanaf 2023: maximaal 8.000 vluchten per jaar.
Voor het uitvoeren van touch-and-go vluchten (circuitvliegen) moeten de vliegtuigen met een toegelaten opstijgmassa (MTOW – maximum take off weight) kleiner dan 2000 kg vanaf 2009 uitgerust zijn met een geluidsdemper en een maximum geluidsniveau hebben van 76 dB(A), gecertificeerd door het Directoraat-generaal Luchtvaart van de FOD Mobiliteit.
I live near ANR as well, and I can hear the Embraers, but also the F50's and smaller airplanes. Luckily there's still more noise coming from busses going through the street here, and occasionally loud motorcycles or sportscars.
Delaying from 0630 to 0830 isn't needed in my opinion: 0700 on weekdays would be fine as that's the time the F50 flights (used to) depart anyway. But I don't know when the potential complainers are used to wake up in the morning
Besides the dBs measured, an F50 has a sound that's more in the range of a car- or truck engine, jets sound different, so they're percieved differently...
Some good thinking here, I like the pro-active mindset. Yet one cannot require a commercial operator to adjust their schedule in mid-season, the Embraers will have to be borne for the rest of the summer timetable.
Myself have never liked the idea of EBAW/ANR becoming "just another commercial airport", I always saw it as a niche airport with mainly business flights and perhaps a few airline operations like the quintessential LCY service. GVA could work, too: both are business destinations that are best served by smaller planes at relatively high frequencies, i.e. at least two per day.
IMHO the powers that be should limit the operational hours, perhaps to 08:00 to 20:00 or so, and set quota for the number of operations during "extended business hours", early morning and evening. Fine tuning in function of noise figures remains possible.
Historical awareness prompts one to wonder how the noise was perceived when Sabena/DAT operated to LHR with F28/B737 - those must have made a lot more noise, and they flew early and late too. But we are living in a different era now, let us admit it.
FWIW an old friend of mine lives at the Groenenhoek and in his appreciation it is mostly the training flights by SEP that are most annoying. I think the powers that be COULD create an alternative field for them - EBZR Zoersel seems a prime candidate, but there are others - and then completely stop VFR training at Antwerp/Deurne field (it is already severely limited). Now THAT would be a sign of good-will to the neighbours (who, I'll admit, ought never to have been there, and who have indeed little reason to complain, but to such times we are doomed).
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 03 Jul 2016, 12:44, edited 1 time in total.
Limiting operational hours to 0800-2000 might be too limiting. One of the reasons the ANR-HAM flight was interesting was that by leaving at 0700 and arriving at 0835 it was early enough to attend a morning-meeting in or near Hamburg. (The return flight 2010-2140 was rather late for business travellers, but maybe it's interesting to see which flights are successful from BRU but might get better flight times from/to ANR?)
Changing the schedule mid-season and dropping destinations is indeed near impossible, but what about departing at 0700 in stead of 0630 and such smaller changes?
The attraction of very early departures is common to all business destinations, it applies to LCY and GVA services too. But those can be operated by the quietest category of airliners: small turboprops. I already suggested that "fine tuning" create some room for such early departures by the quietest of all planes - say three per day - while keeping the general curfew at 21:00-08:00 local, or such.
I am getting more and more surprised (and frustrated) with the comments on this topic. For years, the green and socialist parties have been shouting to close the airport, because it was not profitable. Now we finally get some traffic on ANR, and now they (and some of you) are complaining that we should limit the opening hours or forbid some aircraft to fly, or even close it...
Facts:
- the airport has been in the same place for almost a century; of course things have changed and people are more 'me' focused than ever before (NIMBY!); you can not start any project in Belgium, or somebody is against; that is why surrounding countries will continue to attract more business, traffic or jobs; nevertheless, like LCY of Bromma, ANR is located close to the city and will remain like that (don't start this discussion on Zoersel again, you know how many politicins in that area are living there!)
- it has been proven that the 'explosion' of complaints have been orchestrated by the green party; I am in disbelief that 'Luchtzak'-members start to follow/support these claims, I thought you were all 'airplane'- enthusiasts
- do you seriosuly think that any company will take on the business exploitation of an airport if the rules of the game change all the time? Do you really think Egis would still be interested if you limit traffic or opening hours?
- some of you live in the past; The time of F50"s or similar is over; if you wish to return to the times where only Piper Cups or Cessnas were visiting, stop dreaming and move to amougies or zwartberg; modern airliners (and passengers) choose to use jet aircraft
- limiting opening hours does not allow anymore day-return trips; what would the load factors be on city connections if you cannot get back in 1 day, whereby you have 40kms south an airport with 7 or 8 flights per day to the same destination (that is the issue with GVA nowadays);
- others suggest that ANR should not become an airport for holiday flights; what are you going to say if tomorrow LOT announces to start operating a 'business' route day-return to Warsaw with an EMB170, or Cityflyer starts operating RJ85 for the first and the last flight, or Chalair choses to wetlease a BMI135?; then you will also complain, although these are business flights?
- if you want to attract new business (any business), then the new company needs stability; if you start-up a new flight connection, you need to be ensured that the 'operational conditions' do not change; if Vizionair starts with 2 F50's and, because of great success, they decide to expand with an F100 for example, then ((if I follow some of you) they should not be allowed; who will then take any risk to take-over VLM and create employment?
- if Jetairfly decides next year to station 3 EMb!90' on ANR (don't worry this will not happen, but for argument's sake), and tries to do min 2 rotations per day (12 flights) and Egis succeeds in attacting 1 or 2 other airliners (Flybe, or Lufthansa/Swiss feeder) with EMB170 3 returns a day each (another 12 flights) + Cityjet (6 flights with RJ85) & Chalair (6 flights with ATR) = 36 flights = another 15 private jet flight; then we have to close the airport?
- i see that some of the people who comment on this forum, are also heavily supporting the website 'wesupportantwerpairport.be'; this is typical Belgian behaviour; support an airport as long as me/myself/I do not have any negative impact; i know people who build a house next to the train tracks in Berchem or the E313 in Deurne, so why not have a rule to forbid trucks/trains between 08.00 and 20.00hrs??... i wonder from which airport these 'complainers' or green or socialist party members leave for their holidays (maybe from Brussels at 06.00 in the morning, but that is Ok, that is far away from your home...)
I am sorry that I may sound too 'direct', but can we for once in this country try to defend what we have and build something, without complaining. If you believe the green/left parties are right, then I am sorry for you. But these people also read these forums and they thank you all for all the good suggestions you made to kill this airport slowly. And unfortunately, our Raad van State (where green and red have many friends), will be happy to follow (like the Oosterweel saga).
Be proud that finally ANR is back in business!
One not so noisy jet taking off at 06.30 .OMG. For sure there is much more noise around the Antwerp ring and around the railroads. Should we start up a petition to forbid all traffic at the Antwerp ring between 24.00 and 06.00 ,or limit the speed to 60kms or only allow electrical cars at night? Or impose a curfew for Diesel freight trains between 23.00 and 07.00 hrs? Or maybe start thinking of closing the pubs at 23.00 hrs and forbid night shops. These generate more trouble than an airport which is closed for more than 7 hours during the night.
And have you ever left the 'Sportpaleis' area in Deurne after an event? MUCH more noise and disturbances for the surrounding area ,even 2 hours after the end of an event.
The greens for sure will continue to use the airport as a main topic to complain. after all they are full-time politicians and need to have some points to put on their action list. If it were not the airport it would be something else.
And even with the slightly increasing commercial movements, the antwerp airport is for sure a more quieter place than 20-30 years ago because planes have become more quiet and the number of training flights is to decrease significantly.
Antwerp-airport will always remain a small airport,but the potential it has should be exploited.Of course within the limits imposed by the environmental legislation.But that should be perfectly possible without creating too much nuisance to the neighbourhood.
ironspan wrote:If you believe the green/left parties are right, then I am sorry for you. But these people also read these forums and they thank you all for all the good suggestions you made to kill this airport slowly. And unfortunately, our Raad van State (where green and red have many friends), will be happy to follow (like the Oosterweel saga). Be proud that finally ANR is back in business!
You under-estimate the enemy. Let me assure you: those people (I called them eco fundamentalists) haven't learned anything here that they didn't knew already. Let me assure you that they use flightradar as good as we do. Let me assure that all pro-airport posters like me are cautious for not giving inside information that they, maybe, don't have yet (Freund hört mit).
The eco fundamentalists don't need my encouragement to go to the Raad van State / Conseil D'Etat. Are you aware they just started a new legal case with the Raad van State against the Flemish Government? They use the "Wet Openbaarheid Bestuur" to get an uncensored copy of the contract Egis/Flanders.
Yes and you can be sure they read here as well. They would do ANYTHING to destroy that airport. They are always having arguments to close the airport. So no matter it the airport is doing well or not, they don't care, it is there, making noise and it must go, that is their philosophy. Get yourself another hobby i would say.
Anyway.. I'm from the coast.. I have seen the same debate about OST. Complaints from people whom KNEW they build a house close to an airport.... in my opinion this alone is a reason that they should shut up. Why should the economy pay for your faulty risk assesement?
To: FLYAIR10/Saratoga/Koja78/SLM
Thank you for your understanding and support
To: Passenger
Thanks for your comments, I am fully aware about their strategy and their relentless attempts to attack the airport, using sometimes very 'questionable' methods (the majority of the registered complaints were submitted by 4 persons...).
Hence my surprise to see that on this forum some members actually show sympathy and are proposing measures which would kill ANR-operations. Even if the eco fundamentalists are quite professional, we should not give them more ammunition.
To: sn26567/Andre
I tried to defend ANR's interest, by pointing out facts and show that arguments used were not consistent. Everybody is free to vote on the party he/she selects, but I would expect that 'luchtzak'-forum members would at least be pro-aviation and pro-airports. There are many other forums where people can complain about noise
