Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

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jan_olieslagers
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by jan_olieslagers »

OK, maybe the example wasn't appropriate. Still, not a single crash in 25 years due to running out of fuel is a ridiculous claim. If one considers airliners, only, it might perhaps hold true.

sean1982
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

jan_olieslagers wrote:OK, maybe the example wasn't appropriate. Still, not a single crash in 25 years due to running out of fuel is a ridiculous claim. If one considers airliners, only, it might perhaps hold true.
What else are we talking about? Cargo trains? Look in your own backyard before you call someone else a fool

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Aircraft, dear sir, aircraft in general. This is an aviation forum, remember, aviation includes more than airliners. Your own word is "the last aircraft" , not "the last airliner".

Lysexpat
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Lysexpat »

Inquirer wrote: I d love them to exclain how yet another low cost airline doing the same and thus being equally close to catastrophe in less than ideL situations (and equally lucky in my eyes) can help them somehow with that?
2 wrongs never make a right, in my eyes, but okay, it seems it does for others.
Bad general attitude towards safety, in my opinion as a worried frequent traveller.
Very worrying.
Inquirer- with all respect but you start to sound like the Sun or HLN! It sounds as if you have an axe to grind with LCCs.
Except the LAN 340, here was nothing "close to catastrophe" in MAD/VLC three years ago! I spoke to a friend who was there that night and he confirmed that the weather was challenging, but it was Spanish ATC who made a mess out of it. He was forced to make an approach on 33 whilst there was too much tailwind, ATC ignored all his requests and kept vectoring him for 33, they were surprised he went around when tower gave him landing clearance with excessive tailwind...

Back to some fuel lessons for the armchair pilots. There is nothing dangerous with leaving GRO with minimum fuel to RTM and AMS as an alternate. BUT when you see the AMS and RTM weather at TOD it would probably be wise to immediatley initiate a diversion to a more suitable airport eg BRU, CRL or even BVS... you would then arrive overhead your new destination with loads of fuel.
Last edited by Lysexpat on 26 Jul 2015, 16:15, edited 1 time in total.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by jan_olieslagers »

According to other sources, they had filed both AMS and EIN as alternates, but EIN refused to accept them.

http://avherald.com/h?article=489d4c3f&opt=0
See the comment marked "By Aireps on Sunday, Jul 26th 2015 11:35Z", it gives a pointer to ATC recordings too.

sean1982
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

Well, I know that you are mostly into G/A but with permission you cannot compare fuel planning of a C172 PPL VFR flight with the fuel policy of an airline :/

As this is what we were talking about I think this would be clear and really doesnt justify calling me a fool

Lysexpat
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by Lysexpat »

jan_olieslagers wrote:According to other sources, they had filed both AMS and EIN as alternates, but EIN refused to accept them.

http://avherald.com/h?article=489d4c3f&opt=0
They requested EIN first, but EIN didn't accept them. An urgency (pan) call at that time would have forced EIN to accept them.
For Inquirer: An urgency call doesn't mean you are going to crash, it means that your options are limited and that you may need some form of priority/assistance in order to AVOID a potential dangerous situation.
Last edited by Lysexpat on 26 Jul 2015, 16:26, edited 1 time in total.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by jan_olieslagers »

you cannot compare fuel planning of a C172 PPL VFR flight with the fuel policy of an airline :/
I never claimed that. I only questioned your statement.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 26 Jul 2015, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by jan_olieslagers »

An urgency (pan) call at that time would have forced EIN to accept them.
I thought the same. Couldn't they even have called a full MayDay?
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 26 Jul 2015, 17:09, edited 1 time in total.

sean1982
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

jan_olieslagers wrote: Don't be more of a fool than you must.

Passenger
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by Passenger »

Transavia's service desk has phoned all passengers on Sunday, to explain what happened yesterday. Transavia apologized that the crew was unable to give much information after the landing because of the ongoing emergency. Indeed, emergency vehicles escorted the aircraft from the taxiway to the gate, and once at the gate the crew preferred to deboard as soon as possible.

Source: Dutch press reports

FLYAIR10
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by FLYAIR10 »

It's easy talking with hindsight and behind a PC,but being a passenger once in a while (also with Transavia) I still have some questions.

1.After refusal of EIN to land there, why did they not try Maastricht or Groningen(or BRU)? These are also known airports for Tranavia pilots.
2.Why AMS as a diversion airport ,knowing that the weather and traffic situation in AMS was as bad as in RTM?
3.According to the media ,traffic of trains and trams in the Rotterdam The Hague area was stopped because of the bad weather. Why was RTM airfport still open then? And AMS? How many Beaufort are needed to decide to temporary close an airport for all traffic?

JAF737

Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by JAF737 »

sn26567 wrote:I cannot decide in the crew's place, true, but I would think that, because of the problems affecting the aircraft (flaps, ...) there is some pressure to land in a Transavia base (AMS) rather than in a place where there isn't immediate Transavia assistance available (BRU).
I'm glad you are not driving aircrafts, really.

sean1982
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by sean1982 »

FLYAIR10 wrote:It's easy talking with hindsight and behind a PC,but being a passenger once in a while (also with Transavia) I still have some questions.

1.After refusal of EIN to land there, why did they not try Maastricht or Groningen(or BRU)? These are also known airports for Tranavia pilots.
2.Why AMS as a diversion airport ,knowing that the weather and traffic situation in AMS was as bad as in RTM?
3.According to the media ,traffic of trains and trams in the Rotterdam The Hague area was stopped because of the bad weather. Why was RTM airfport still open then? And AMS? How many Beaufort are needed to decide to temporary close an airport for all traffic?
Its not an airport authority that closes an airport due to high winds but the limits are with the aircraft operating manuals and/or the stricter company policy (usually cross and tailwinds are the deciding factors, and also windshear off course)

Passenger
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by Passenger »

The Aviation Herald reported that people had to brace for impact. This is how that sounded:



In the above video, the cabin crew repeatedly yells: "hoofd tegen de leuning voor u" - put your head against the back of the seat in front of you".

Last few seconds in that audio, during roll out: "ladies and gentlemen: TOP, VERY TOP!"

http://nos.nl/artikel/2049025-transavia ... dures.html
NOS (Dutch public tv) reports that the pilot said on the PA, just after landing: "this was a very exceptional event that I never encountered in my 25 year carrier".

NOS (Dutch public tv) also reports in the above link that a flapless approach was done to save fuel.

DutchNL
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by DutchNL »

Ok. From the Airwork link:
http://avherald.com/h?article=489d4c3f&opt=0

This will be an interesting report to read.

What is the fuel policy at HV? Captains' discretion or is there a system in place to discourage taking extra fuel?

Eindhoven refusing to accept a diversion - that's a pretty serious issue!
I have listened back the conversation between the crew and Rotterdam Tower They were refused at EIN so they were vectored towards Amsterdam around 1136Z. Crew (and Tower) were not happy. (They were in holding since 1118Z)

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

jan_olieslagers wrote:According to other sources, they had filed both AMS and EIN as alternates, but EIN refused to accept them..
It seems doubtful they planned EHEH/EIN as ALTN seen the NOTAM in force.
NOTAM EHEH.jpg
H.A.

pilot_gent
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by pilot_gent »

Having flown that day I can say weather was pretty nasty in our regions :) I also talked to one of my colleaugues that did a landing in RTM that day. The word that came out was: "marginal, very very marginal".
The crosswind component during their landing was +- 29kts (gusts included 41kts) with a wet runway. Combine this with a RWY length of 2200m which is not a short runway but not long neither! All the ingredients for stress are there.

I saw the video of the landing and something I saw was they didn't use reverse. Strange.

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KriVa
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by KriVa »

According to some statements, they did use reverse thrust, but selected it a bit later than normal, some time after the exterior video cut out.
Thomas

Passenger
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Re: Diversion of a Transavia flight because of stormy weather

Post by Passenger »

Some new videos from last Saturday have been loaded on Youtube:

Landing of the Transavia 737 - subject of this topic:



KLM Embraer 190:



KLM 777:



Landings and go-arounds - 10 minutes:


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