Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1680
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Conti764 » 12 Jun 2015, 21:43

Well, I wasn't actually talking about the press, but about politicians who matter...

Look at the press conference... All of them seem to have an age which makes me believe they all came to live near the airport, long after it was established at Zaventem...

No matter what real estate prices are, they have no right at all to complain.

b-west

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by b-west » 13 Jun 2015, 10:17

There's a construction yard right next to my home. As there's also a river nearby, pumps are now active day and night to keep the site from being flooded. The works also start very early, usually at 6 but there have been cases where they even started at 4 already. All this leads to a lot of noise... I thought of starting an action group, a petition, big protest... And then I realised I had something else that solved the problem for me...

Image

Would it add fuel to the fire if the next time these NIMBY groups come up with their silly demands in a press conference, Brussels airport stands by the door handing out sets of these? ;)

Acid-drop
Posts: 2671
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Acid-drop » 13 Jun 2015, 11:08

Moving bru is not very realistic
But decreasing the quota of night flights is very possble.
That's why i was thinking DHL likes poker when they talk about investing in BRU.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4363
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Atlantis » 13 Jun 2015, 14:00

Acid-drop wrote:Moving bru is not very realistic
But decreasing the quota of night flights is very possble.
That's why i was thinking DHL likes poker when they talk about investing in BRU.
hahaha no no, no poker at all of DHL. They are going to invest huge at BRU. First the road in front of their new building will be completely renewed. That's the paralel road of the Haachtesteenweg.

Very soon the buildings of Jetairfly and Brussels Airlines will be demolished where they new state-of-art building of BHL will come with a new tarmac.

Let those nimby's talk. there is finally common sence that politics, BRU and the local governments of Zaventem, Machelen and Steenokkerzeel are working together BEHIND THE SCENES of a juridical platform for the airport.
And about the nightflights: more and more cargo operators are operating during the day. So there is already a shift in it.

jan_olieslagers
Posts: 3085
Joined: 24 Jun 2006, 08:34
Location: Vl.Brabant
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by jan_olieslagers » 13 Jun 2015, 16:47

Isn't it about time to set up some counter action? Organise a manifestation or happening or march in favour of aviation and / or specifically in favour of Brussels Airport? Appear as counter-manifestors when/where this stupid bunch of nimby's shows up? Set up a "Friends of Brussels Airport" or such?

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36301
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by sn26567 » 13 Jun 2015, 19:12

To have 12 groups of citizens express the same opinion AGAINST Brussels Airport was the easy part of the game. The difficult part will be to have them agree FOR the same alternative solution.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Stij
Posts: 2226
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Stij » 13 Jun 2015, 22:23

sn26567 wrote:To have 12 groups of citizens express the same opinion AGAINST Brussels Airport was the easy part of the game. The difficult part will be to have them agree FOR the same alternative solution.
Andre, nice, very nice summary!!!!

Greetings from my garden!

Cheers,

Stij

BAAV
Posts: 46
Joined: 08 Jun 2013, 18:03

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by BAAV » 14 Jun 2015, 21:19

jan_olieslagers wrote:Isn't it about time to set up some counter action? Organise a manifestation or happening or march in favour of aviation and / or specifically in favour of Brussels Airport? Appear as counter-manifestors when/where this stupid bunch of nimby's shows up? Set up a "Friends of Brussels Airport" or such?
This was aired today in het Journaal (VRT) discussing the successes of BRU cargo. key factor of the success is specialisation. This puts the airport in a positive daylight for a broad audience. It is a good start...
http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2367577
Today's news bulletin focused on fresh products cargo. Apparently 1/5 of this type of products that go via air pass via BRU for all of Western Europe. Features a.o. SN with cargo from Africa and Ethiopian with flowers. Economic importance was also mentioned like for example the 4000 jobs. Tomorrow they will discuss cargo of medical products

I like your idea
@ Andre: your comment is spot on

Acid-drop
Posts: 2671
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Acid-drop » 15 Jun 2015, 11:52

And about the nightflights: more and more cargo operators are operating during the day. So there is already a shift in it.
You are right Atlantis.
A very recent study shows that if the night ban is increased to 22h-7h, only 1,4% of pax flight and only 3,6% of cargo flights would be impacted.

source:http://m.trends.levif.be/economie/entre ... 00319.html

The night ban is very likely to happen I think. If nobody is impacted, why not...
But we should avoid looking like clown once more (and hurting belgian economy once more). DHL should know this isn't a risk, this isn't poker but it will most likely happen.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

BRU
Posts: 204
Joined: 06 Jan 2013, 15:35

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by BRU » 15 Jun 2015, 12:54

That study is competely wrong and is only there to proof what they want to proof... A complete night ban will result in much more cargo and jobs being lost. This happened in 2005 / 2007 when the curfew at BRU started, and most of that traffic moved outside Belgium resulting in several thousands of jobs being lost for our economy. A night ban will do the same. And if politicians think that they can determine where traffic has to go to, they are wrong. If you close BRU at night or you want cargo to move to a regional airport, you do not have control on this. There is a big risk and big probability these airlines will move to other gateways with a similar setup (read: forwarders present) as BRU and sufficient capacity available: AMS, CDG, FRA, LHR, ...

Passenger
Posts: 6572
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Passenger » 15 Jun 2015, 13:20

That a night curfew gives a saving of 100.000.000 € on our health cost is the result of a study conducted by 12 year old students:
http://trends.levif.be/economie/entrepr ... 00319.html

This is how they’ve calculated that “100.000.000 € savings”:

fact 1) Belgians pay an average of 4.000 € each year on health costs;
fact 2) 250.000 people suffer from aircraft noise;
fact 3) the total amount spent on health costs by those 250.000 people is 1.000.000.000 €;

presumption: a better night rest for those 250.000 people will result in 10% less medical expenses for them;

conclusion: 10% savings on 1.000.000.000 is 100.000.000

With the same logic of that “study”, one can conclude that a night curfew will cost more then keeping the airport open during night: a night curfew means less business, thus less work force needed, thus more people unemployed, not generating contributions, going into depression, …

Or one could argue that a night curfew means more flights concentrated during the last hour before the curfew starts. That’s around the time young children have to go to bed.

- - -

I don’t know how the charter operations are calculated in that 1,4% pax flights that would be effected, but for Jetairfly and Thomas Cook a night curfew would mean one less rotation for several aircraft.

Example: Brussels Airport http://www.brusselsairport.be/en/passngr/flinfo/arrivs/ shows these arrivals for tonight:

23h45 : JAF from Nador
00h10 : HQ from Fuerteventura/La Palma
00h40 : JAF from Heraklion
00h45 : HQ from Tenerife
00h55 : JAF from Chania
02h10 : JAF from Tangier
02h25 : JAF from Pristina

Acid-drop
Posts: 2671
Joined: 29 Jun 2005, 00:00
Location: Liège, BE
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Acid-drop » 15 Jun 2015, 13:57

this health cost saving is a big joke, i didn't think it was usefull to mention it.
But I guess they had to count how many flights are impacted by a potential night ban, this is a basic calculation from live data, I guess there isn't much that can go wrong here...

But "BRU" is right, we can't force anyone to move to a regional airport, the risk is very big to see the trafic going outside Belgium. Well ... that's for 3,6% of cargo trafic, it doesnt sound like much, but is it enough to create a bigger move ?
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36301
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by sn26567 » 15 Jun 2015, 14:08

Passenger wrote:I don’t know how the charter operations are calculated in that 1,4% pax flights that would be effected, but for Jetairfly and Thomas Cook a night curfew would mean one less rotation for several aircraft.

Example: Brussels Airport http://www.brusselsairport.be/en/passngr/flinfo/arrivs/ shows these arrivals for tonight:

23h45 : JAF from Nador
00h10 : HQ from Fuerteventura/La Palma
00h40 : JAF from Heraklion
00h45 : HQ from Tenerife
00h55 : JAF from Chania
02h10 : JAF from Tangier
02h25 : JAF from Pristina
The current night curfew is only for departures. I guess a larger curfew will be similar. Hence Jetairfly and Thomas Cook will not be affected for their arriving flights. But they might be affected if their first departures have to be moved from 06:00 to 07:00. It means only that their last arrivals in the middle of the night will be one hour later and that they can keep the same number of rotations.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
Posts: 6572
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Passenger » 15 Jun 2015, 14:55

sn26567 wrote:
Passenger wrote:I don’t know how the charter operations are calculated in that 1,4% pax flights that would be effected, but for Jetairfly and Thomas Cook a night curfew would mean one less rotation for several aircraft. Example: Brussels Airport http://www.brusselsairport.be/en/passngr/flinfo/arrivs/ shows these arrivals for tonight:
23h45 : JAF from Nador
00h10 : HQ from Fuerteventura/La Palma
00h40 : JAF from Heraklion
00h45 : HQ from Tenerife
00h55 : JAF from Chania
02h10 : JAF from Tangier
02h25 : JAF from Pristina
The current night curfew is only for departures. I guess a larger curfew will be similar. Hence Jetairfly and Thomas Cook will not be affected for their arriving flights. But they might be affected if their first departures have to be moved from 06:00 to 07:00. It means only that their last arrivals in the middle of the night will be one hour later and that they can keep the same number of rotations.
Agree, but the night curfew that the twelve action groups have asked during their joined press conference on 12th June 2015 is a total night curfew for both departures ànd arrivals, both between 22h and 07h.

"...De groep wil een totale afschaffing van alle vluchten, die zowel vertrekken als landen in Brussels Airport, tussen 22 uur ’s avonds en 7 uur ’s morgens. Een aantal activiteiten moeten ook verplaatst worden van Brussels Airport naar regionale luchthavens..."
De Standaard - http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20150612_01727714

BRU
Posts: 204
Joined: 06 Jan 2013, 15:35

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by BRU » 15 Jun 2015, 16:02

Acid-drop wrote:But "BRU" is right, we can't force anyone to move to a regional airport, the risk is very big to see the trafic going outside Belgium. Well ... that's for 3,6% of cargo trafic, it doesnt sound like much, but is it enough to create a bigger move ?
If it was "only" 3,6%, that would be an easy decission. But if tomorrow no night operations any more, it will be much more. An airline that only has 1 night flight, will not move the one flight but most probably its operation of 3 or 4 flights. You do not want your aircraft to be blocked on ground for 9 hours or to divert in case you have a delay. So just the risk of this might already result in a move of operation to other gateways.

And the message given to all logistical companies such DB Schenker, Expeditor, Panalpina, SDV, UTI, DHL GF, ... will be: do not invest in BRU, no long term future. This will result in logistical flows being derouted to AMS, LUX, FRA, etc. In the end, most cargo will be handled in these airports. There is a lot of competition between all airports in Western Europe and a lot of options for airlines and forwarders.

And to answer a question: how come FRA can be closed and still have cargo ? Few reasons: first of all the night is much shorter, second they have a strong cargo home carrier, third there are a lot of big forwarders at the airport driving the volumes. And finally: since the night curfew in FRA, the growth has stopped at the airport as far as cargo is concerned while Germany as an economy keeps on growing. So even they started to suffer already from the start. Long term it will even be more painful for them.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4363
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Atlantis » 15 Jun 2015, 20:10

Some hot news: other actiongroups are totally against the move of Brussels Airport and against the proposals of the 12 other action groups.

In meantime, via social media, a lot of actions started in favor of Brussels Airport.

Also the news of VRT, Flemish television, had two items yesterday and today about BruCargo and the importance of them for Belgium and the specific goods they handle.

The action groups who are totally against the move of Brussels Airport pointed also out that the biggest mistake of "those 12" was to ask the most unrealistic actions. This will keep Brussels Airport and the government away from the table in negociations.

Besides, also the government reacted in meantime that the move of Brussels Airport is totally unrealistic and will never be discussed.

Finally some common sence. FINALLY!!!!

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... epen.dhtml

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2368372

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... al/2.39424#

Boeing767copilot
Posts: 1305
Joined: 13 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Boeing767copilot » 15 Jun 2015, 21:02

And also in Terzake (Canvas):
Mark richt een actiegroep op… tegen actiegroepen
Een opvallend verschijnsel: steeds meer mensen sluiten zich aan bij actiegroepen tégen de actiegroepen die klagen over de luchthaven in Zaventem. "Terzake" sprak met Mark Warson van het "Front tegen de actiegroepen tegen nachtlawaai rond Zaventem".

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/video ... =1.2368453

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4363
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by Atlantis » 15 Jun 2015, 21:27

Indeed, see also this article. Two new actiongroups via Facebook. Already more then 7000 participants.

Common sense indeed: more and more actiongroups against those people who are complaining. FINALLY!!!! Well done!!!

Indeed, like in the article: those people are asked to move away from there to other places and not the airport.

User avatar
KriVa
Posts: 1372
Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 20:15
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by KriVa » 15 Jun 2015, 22:10

It always amuses me how this type of action group immediately DEMANDS everything.
Instead of trying to invite the other party for a civilised discussion from which both parties could benefit, they immediately turn to an aggressive tactic that forces the other side on the defensive.
They won't win any sympathy by using this tactic, quite the contrary even, as demonstrated by the anti-action-groups phenomenon. The only sympathy they will get, unconditionally even, is that from the black flag protestors.
Thomas

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 36301
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Move Brussels Airport to a new place (ask the NIMBY's)

Post by sn26567 » 15 Jun 2015, 22:21

Watch out! There could well be an action group against the action groups against the 12 action groups against Brussels Airport? :)

By the way, the information of the action groups against moving Brussels Airport is also published on French-speaking media. Example:

http://www.rtbf.be/info/belgique/detail ... id=9007628
André
ex Sabena #26567

Post Reply