Lufthansa to start Nairobi from Oct 27

[convair]

Has anyone any idea why SN agreed to the NBO/ACC swap ? Or what are the real reasons behind it.

Because they were likely losing tons of money on it, maybe!?

Nairobi is so close to the middle eastern hubs and so far east in Africa, whereas Belgium is so far in the west of Europe, the only feed (apart from Belgians themselves) must have been Americans these days.
With just 2 transatlantic flights, there is just no way they can fill a plane, not even a few times a week!
Lufthansa on the contrary has 30 daily transatlantics or so, so take a guess who's the better operator for whatever feed there is still remaining!? Better grow your US offering, or more will be lost in East Africa!

What a bunch of nostalgic whiners here btw, thinking that a little airport like BRU can serve the world.
In fact you guys should be happy Lufthansa lets your regional airline launch ACC instead, probably only because that place serves as anchor point to add frequencies to 3 existing and likely very profitable destinations, something everybody seems to forget now: the whole discussion is drenched in nostalgia (oh after 60 years _ lets forget about all the losses) and focused on a simple swap (NBO vs ACC), but you guys seem to forget about the extra frequencies on 3 other routes, which is what it may be all about in fact!!!
They give up on fighting Emirates etc (you really can't fight us if you aren't of equal size) and take on Air France (which they can fight very well _ AF is a complete mess): good decision.

I agree with all that as long as LH confirms it is dropping ACC.
I also think Danny is making a correct analysis (see hereunder)

Hi all,

Sorry but I do not agree with some of the previous comments.

1) LH was/is seeking to have a series of destinations for their old A340-300 planes and that sounds to me like a good plan (with adapted seating). Nairobi is a logic destination in this context.
2) It has absolutely no sense to keep the three partner airlines on the route, that would be unnecessary competition.
3) Accra is an important destination. It is correct that Nairobi has UNEP and also a regional HQ of FAO (I used to work for them), but also Accra plays an important regional role to this regard. Moreover, it allows SN to reinforce also other West-African destinations.
4) What is happening now is NOT a mere shift to LH. This time it most certainly will be a swap (although that still needs to be confirmed). But don't forget that also the lucrative Douala/Yaounde market was handed over entirely to SN in the past!
5) Other network alignments occured also in Europe and they were IMHO quite good: e.g. Berlin, Hamburg, Hannover for SN, Munich and Frankfurt for LH; Basel for SN, dropped by LX.

My feeling is that LH/LX/SN are optimising the network and are reasoning from a group perspective which is good. Having a separate SN strategy has no sense at all.

Ans as a passenger, I do not really care who is flying what ... (as long as I do not have to fly every flight from FRA )

Just my 2 cents,
Danny

If and when LH takes over 100% of SN, it should, and probably will, use BRU exactly the same way as they use MUC (or the other hubs of the group for that matter).

[sn-remember]

The answer to most questions/statements here has been given a few days ago in the topic "BRU Winter 2015/2016: latest news, routes, airlines"

Adding ACC as well as increasing frequencies to no less than 3 other West-African destinations (and making KGL a non-stop route on top) is a much smarter move than holding on to a low frequency tag on flight to NBO as NBO is simply too far to the East in Africa to still hope for much feeding from the EU these days: IST and the ME3 hubs eat much of the cake on those EU to NBO traffic flows now as they offer shorter trips.
The exception is feed from the UK and the US, but here BRU lacks the vast US network to benefit from sufficient feed, so it's best to have NBO connected to the one hub which has the greatest US feed of them all and that is FRA. You do not want to offer your connecting passengers say a LAX-IAD-BRU-KGL-NBO when they can do a LAX-LHR-NBO or a LAX-DXB-NBO: have them do an LAX-FRA-NBO instead.

West-Africa is a completely different story: there the ME3 and TK are pretty weak from Europe due to their greographical disadvantage and the US feed is far less important as these countries are predominantly French speaking and far more focussed on Western-Europe still for which BRU is an excellent hub: on top of that, the upcoming ANA flight (as well as any future extra Asian feeders) will be able to feed meaningful and almost straight routes then, so better build that sector of the network with more non-stops and/or higher frequencies, over holding on to a thin route which is out of reach. Nobody in his right mind is going to do a NRT-BRU-KGL-NBO flight, but they will do say a NRT-BRU-ACC or any other West-African route: AF/KL definitely won't like this news.

Expect more of these flight swaps in future, as well as some other very interesting news regarding the integration of SN in the Lufthansa long haul product line up in order to align us even more with Lufthansa.

copy/pasted from this post of 10th June 2015:
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic ... 20#p318153

I can't buy this type of reasoning ..
For all the respect I have for Tolipanebas, it's silly.
Indeed BRU needs to develop hub-wise with SN as the main player. It's not true that ORD, YUL, EWR, JFK, IAD are not enough connectivity to warrant 2 dailies in Kenia and around the Great Lakes.
Sn needed a Jump-like operation to better compete, so let them do it ?

[sn26567]

Airline Route says that "brussels airlines will place its SN code on Lufthansa's Frankfurt - Nairobi route from 25OCT15".

That's the least one could expect...

[Darjeeling]

Lufthansa is claiming themselves the profitable flights, the leftovers for SN, german pilots working for SN (without being able to speak dutch or french!!!) ....where is this going to end?? Please SN, stand up for your self and kick those F****** germans out. History is repeating again.

Sorry but I don't get it.

I don't see why German/expat pilots should be able to speak french and or dutch. I already have my doubts about cabin crew... It's airline business in 21st century. Open and widen your spirit. It's not NMBS employee or Telenet call center operators but pilots. With such state of mind I understand Belgium's difficulties...

Imagine if all Emiartes expat pilots are required to speak Arabic...

[saratoga]

darjeeling.....

I fully fully fully agree with you.....BUT....if i as a pilot want to work in Germany, i simply dont get in because i dont speak German. But adapting themselves to able to speak another language...no way!!! They are very protective concerning flying jobs so i think we should do the same. If it goes one way, than it should also go the other way. (however they think not).

[convair]

If it goes one way, than it should also go the other way.

That's a very backward and narrow-minded statement IMHO!

[sean1982]

Lufthansa is claiming themselves the profitable flights, the leftovers for SN, german pilots working for SN (without being able to speak dutch or french!!!) ....where is this going to end?? Please SN, stand up for your self and kick those F****** germans out. History is repeating again.

Sorry but I don't get it.

I don't see why German/expat pilots should be able to speak french and or dutch. I already have my doubts about cabin crew... It's airline business in 21st century. Open and widen your spirit. It's not NMBS employee or Telenet call center operators but pilots. With such state of mind I understand Belgium's difficulties...

Imagine if all Emiartes expat pilots are required to speak Arabic...

Fact! But don't sell bullshit then about being a real "belgian airline" and screaming others are not when you actually stopped being belgian long ago

[Passenger]

But don't sell ******* then about being a real "belgian airline" and ******* others are not when you actually stopped being belgian long ago

Brussels Airlines is a Belgian company (nv/sa).
SN Airholding is also an Belgian company (nv/sa).
Brussels Airlines uses OO-reg.
Fair enough to call them a Belgian airline, eventually with adjective "with a majority of foreign shareholders" (off topic: I wonder if the "Irish" Ryanair has a majority of Irish shareholders).

****** sorry - a filter on my computer refuses to copy words that are in general used by drunken and/or aggressive men.

[Stij]

Any more post containing bad language will be deleted!

[RoMax]

Fact! But don't sell bullshit then about being a real "belgian airline" and screaming others are not when you actually stopped being belgian long ago

What is your definition of a Belgian airline (or company)? 100% Belgian staff and 100% Belgian shareholders, or do you work with a limit of xx%? Apply that logic to other countries as well and we don't have any airlines left that can say being German/Dutch/French/Italian/British/..., they are all multinationals then? Or just 'nationality-neutral'?

The vast majority of the SN employees are Belgian, it is an airline registered and based in Belgium, they try to do as many things ' the Belgian way' (from meals on board to partnerships such as with TomorrowLand, Red Devils or Belgian Olympic Committee), ... I think they have all the right to position themselves as a Belgian airline.

[airazurxtror]

I think they have all the right to position themselves as a Belgian airline.

A "Belgian" airline ?
Just like Jetairfly or Thomas Cook : the personnel is in majority Belgian and the aircraft are registered in Belgium - but the main shareholders are in Germany or Great-Britain, and so are the real decision-makers.

[OO-ITR]

I think they have all the right to position themselves as a Belgian airline.

A "Belgian" airline ?
Just like Jetairfly or Thomas Cook : the personnel is in majority Belgian and the aircraft are registered in Belgium - but the main shareholders are in Germany or Great-Britain, and so are the real decision-makers.

yes but the majority of the people on board are Belgian. THAT is the difference !!!

[Stij]

And what has this to do with LH flying to NBO?

Back on topic!

[sn-remember]

West-Africa is a completely different story: there the ME3 and TK are pretty weak from Europe due to their greographical disadvantage

The equivallent of TK regarding the W-Afi market is AT.
RAM is at least as powerful to W-AFI as TK is to E-AFI.
That should not impact SN operations to W-Afi NOR TO East-Afi.... provided the product offered is in line with the competition ....
Meaning probably a necessary overhaul of SN policy regarding the products offered.
Maybe there is a lesson to be taken from the Jump business venture initiated by LH ?

[sn26567]

LH flights to NBO will become daily from Summer 2016 (up from 5x/week). Something that SN would not have been able to do!

[FLYAIR10]

LH flights to NBO will become daily from Summer 2016 (up from 5x/week). Something that SN would not have been able to do!

No,SN could not have done that. But instead of LH going daily they could have gone for 'a LH 4/week and SN 3/week' option on alternate days. Or LH 5/week ,SN 2/week . At least the SN customer base would have had an option to still fly SN fm/to Nairobi.

[tolipanebas]

That just makes no sense you know.
A Belgian customer is as well off going through FRA and then nonstop to NBO, than via KGL to NBO.
On top of that, he will soon be able to fly daily.
Customers not originating in Belgium win too, not just in frequency but also in flight time (less intermediate stops).
The entire LH Group wins in both global connectivity and frequency, notably from NBO to the USA.
SN wins in that it frees a plane to up its frequencies on lucrative West African routes like Ouagadougou, Lomé, Cotounou and to add Accra again and of course also this piece of news:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines_press_r ... -monrovia/
And it detags KGL and EBB, making the SN flights there far more attractive in the face of competition and thus enable those routes to be increased in frequency further as from next summer already.
That's right.

[Conti764]

Has anyone any idea why SN agreed to the NBO/ACC swap ? Or what are the real reasons behind it.

Because they were likely losing tons of money on it, maybe!?

Nairobi is so close to the middle eastern hubs and so far east in Africa, whereas Belgium is so far in the west of Europe, the only feed (apart from Belgians themselves) must have been Americans these days.
With just 2 transatlantic flights, there is just no way they can fill a plane, not even a few times a week!
Lufthansa on the contrary has 30 daily transatlantics or so, so take a guess who's the better operator for whatever feed there is still remaining!? Better grow your US offering, or more will be lost in East Africa!

What a bunch of nostalgic whiners here btw, thinking that a little airport like BRU can serve the world.
In fact you guys should be happy Lufthansa lets your regional airline launch ACC instead, probably only because that place serves as anchor point to add frequencies to 3 existing and likely very profitable destinations, something everybody seems to forget now: the whole discussion is drenched in nostalgia (oh after 60 years _ lets forget about all the losses) and focused on a simple swap (NBO vs ACC), but you guys seem to forget about the extra frequencies on 3 other routes, which is what it may be all about in fact!!!
They give up on fighting Emirates etc (you really can't fight us if you aren't of equal size) and take on Air France (which they can fight very well _ AF is a complete mess): good decision.

Five, actually...

[Homo Aeroportus]

That just makes no sense you know.
A Belgian customer is as well off going through FRA and then nonstop to NBO, than via KGL to NBO.
On top of that, he will soon be able to fly daily.
Customers not originating in Belgium win too, not just in frequency but also in flight time (less intermediate stops).
The entire LH Group wins in both global connectivity and frequency, notably from NBO to the USA.
SN wins in that it frees a plane to up its frequencies on lucrative West African routes like Ouagadougou, Lomé, Cotounou and to add Accra again and of course also this piece of news:
https://www.aviation24.be/airlines_press_r ... -monrovia/
And it detags KGL and EBB, making the SN flights there far more attractive in the face of competition and thus enable those routes to be increased in frequency further as from next summer already.
That's right.

Thank you Tolipanebas for this cold-blooded analysis.
This is the way forward. Much better opportunities in the West indeed.

H.A.