If SN has to pay for their type ratings instead of taking the Germans who already had their type-rating, seems like a logical cost-driven decision.
How so? What would SN gain by paying for the T/R of new staff, when they can easily recruit some that already have it? Whatever they might gain, would it be sufficient to make for the (quite solid) cost of 20 T/R trainings, plus the risk that some might fail the test so that the cost goes wasted?
To all those who talk of "BELGIAN" pilots: please wake up, we are in the 21st century. We will soon be happy if our pilot jobs are filled by Europeans at all. Remember what is happening to trucker's jobs today? There is no reason to believe it will be different for pilot jobs tomorrow. Well, that is to say, give it a couple of years.
As an illustration, set up a receiver to any of the EBBR frequencies and listen for the accents. AF with a UK accent, LH with a FR accent, BA with a Dutch accent, all perfectly common. Who is complaining there?
If SN has to pay for their type ratings instead of taking the Germans who already had their type-rating, seems like a logical cost-driven decision.
How so? What would SN gain by paying for the T/R of new staff, when they can easily recruit some that already have it? Whatever they might gain, would it be sufficient to make for the (quite solid) cost of 20 T/R trainings, plus the risk that some might fail the test so that the cost goes wasted?
You might have misunderstood or I might have been unclear, but that's exactly what I mean. Why would SN pay for the type rating of new Belgian ab-intio pilots, instead of taking the German pilots who already have their T/R.
If SN has to pay for their type ratings instead of taking the Germans who already had their type-rating, seems like a logical cost-driven decision.
How so? What would SN gain by paying for the T/R of new staff, when they can easily recruit some that already have it? Whatever they might gain, would it be sufficient to make for the (quite solid) cost of 20 T/R trainings, plus the risk that some might fail the test so that the cost goes wasted?
You might have misunderstood or I might have been unclear, but that's exactly what I mean. Why would SN pay for the type rating of new Belgian ab-intio pilots, instead of taking the German pilots who already have their T/R.
Because that's what a "real" belgian airline would do. The amount of times FR has been flogged here for hiring european crew in all bases over europe (im sure the name Boris is familiar) by SN crew and supporters I cant even count on one hand
Now we have Fritz und Anja up front at SN. Do I care? Not in the slightest (allthough I do feel sorry for belgian cadets cause all belgian airlines are now sourcing crew abroad) but the hypocrisy on this forum is laughable
Is it also PR wise smart when you present yourself explicitly as a Belgian airline promoting Belgian products and services? For the rest looks indeed like a logical business decision to take within the LH group
What a futile discussion!
Any company, Belgian or other, would have taken the same, sensible, decision. Who would pay for training interim personnel if trained personnel is available?
Pocahontas wrote:Indeed, and after two years they'll be gone, freeing up my space on the airbus. If they would have hired Belgian ab-initio's, it would have been on the Avro, untill the complete phase out.
you really believe that? your company is going to invest in intro-training, recurrents, line training, simulator training etc .. only to kick them out after 2 years to pay for everything AGAIN for belgan cadets? (assuming that the fleet keeps growing which according to your company and employees here on the forum is the case)
And even if so, with what mindset are fritz und anja gonna sit up front knowing that they'll be sacrificed in 2 years? Don't tell me that with 1800 hours A320 right seat the world is your oyster
with what mindset are fritz und anja gonna sit up front
They'll know they're on a good seat for two years. After which, all options are open again. This is what careers are like, today. Again: welcome to the 21st century.
PS You'll oblige me by writing more carefully. I can live with your emotional reactions, but please don't write them out like a 14-year old schoolgirl or a stupido americano.
jan_olieslagers wrote:
They'll know they're on a good seat for two years. After which, all options are open again. This is what careers are like, today. Again: welcome to the 21st century.
Really? Someone who is worried he's WILL be replaced in a set period of time is going to perform 100% in an environment where safety is of prime importance? all options open? Tell me please which company will recruit a pilot with 1800 hours right seat A320 (assuming max flight time) in europe or even outside europe? Most companies who are looking for expirienced pilots are looking for 2500+ hours
That's not the century I'm living in.
For the rest, I'll decide that for myself thank you very much
Easyjet? (Turkish?) Air France? Cargolux? What do you know Sean, I've seen many people with less hours on Avro leave for these companies, and that without a proper type rating. If you have an airbus 320 TR with 1800 on type you'll find a job. If you pay for your TR, even at FR. You claim you know it all, you often proove you don't!
We still have 12 Avros to be replaced, and yes we'll all get a TR A320, a little bit more then 20 F/O's that'll change type. So a quick math exercise teaches me that we'll be too much, if you catch my drift.
turkish .. provided they'll have more than 1500 hours in 2 years (with the slow winter season that will be hard to get and even if, they will still be at the bottom of the pool with loads of people with more hours applying)
cargolux, 2500+ hours required
FR .. direct entry F/O only when B737 qualified and 500 hours on type
All of that are still POSSIBLE jobs .. doesn't change the mindset of someone about to be un-employed for an unknown period of time. What if they leave before their 2 years at SN is up? you cannot expect these people to be loyal. How is the company going to cope with that? More contracts?
And please .. don't get personal .. you don't know how much I know about recruitment in europe. In fact, weren't you the one who a few weeks ago gave me a "bolwassing" about FR pilots not having a belgian accent on the frequency? Put your money where your mouth is please
I've been through the full Ryanair training cycle, so I know exactly what I talk about:
Everybody flying for them needs to pay much much more than the full cost of the type rating (they make a good profit on it), after which an employment contract with some broker is awaiting you (never a direct employed with the airline itself), meaning you are basically going to be paid peanuts and by the hour, without building any rights or extralegals of course.
In contrast to what FR permits itself as routine recruitment practices since long, this is just peanuts!
So SNBA have taken in some foreign interims? Big deal!
They must indeed have a temporarily need of extra crews because of their current fleet change.
That's a pretty normal situation to any airline doing that: people can't just stop flying one plane on a Friday evening, starting on the new one on Monday morning, so interims to fill the gap are a logical result and you'd want qualified guys of course, not people who'd need more training than the converts themselves.
Otherwise, what's the point?
As I see it, SNBA gets 20 guys readily trained pilots with very good standards (something questionable of open market guys) and with the right TR which Lufthansa probably paid for (and who knows what else they pay for during their 2 year stay?) and delivers 20 experienced pilots back to Lufthansa in 2 years, so in the end there's no social problem at SNBA with anybody having to vacate his seat again as the German interims just move back to Lufthansa once it's all over: everybody happy at SNBA and Lufthansa as well as those 20 guys of course!
The only losers are the Belgian flight schools which got themselves exposed for what they truely are: the most expensive road to unemployment!
Unless you are wililng to lay down another 30,000 euro for a very expensive self sponsored TR on top of your 100,000 euro for the basic flight training and subsequenty accept a miserable job at a low cost for at least a couple of years till you can join a legacy somewhere around the globe that is, and even that is increasingly questionable in future, as the Gulf airlines are starting their own cadet programs too now.
Belgian flight schools are a complete joke these days: they make it look as if you have the world at your feet at the end of the training with them, while in fact they deliver poorly qualified, highly endebted pilots for which there is mostly no need as they lack the hours, the skills and the TR needed to make it.
But these one man schools are big cash machines for their owners of course, so the dream must be kept alive at all costs, so when somebody publically bursts it by saying their cadets are in fact not so suitable at all, they are suddenly getting worried.
If I see what kind of requirements and which standards legacy carriers like EK go by, I can only say that airlines which hire ab initios delivered to them by small and private flight schools are a bunch of amateurs and I dare to bet that once they have experienced first hands at SNBA the standards of these guys from Lufthansa, they will not want any less, no more.
What's needed is 1 serious Belgian flight school again, not the bunch of dodgy, small privately owned schools like we have now. No serious airline wants pilots from them: they are either too expensive to make them fully qualified, or they have self-sponsored a full qualification and are often of questionable standards (daddy's bank account prevailed over the required competences).
Direct entry F/O... I mentioned clearly that if they pay the TR even Ryanair will hire them. In fact those 20 pilots are contract pilots, like any other contract pilot, if they'll go they'll be replaced by someone else. A temporary contract is still a contract, so if you breach it, there will be consequences, like with any contract.
Bru Air pilots are almost all Belgian. Except for a few Dutch and a few French. Most CONTRACT pilots are foreigners.
Anyone can read ppjn, that doesn't make you someone who knows about recruitement.
Pocahontas wrote:Direct entry F/O... I mentioned clearly that if they pay the TR even Ryanair will hire them. In fact those 20 pilots are contract pilots, like any other contract pilot, if they'll go they'll be replaced by someone else. A temporary contract is still a contract, so if you breach it, there will be consequences, like with any contract.
Bru Air pilots are almost all Belgian. Except for a few Dutch and a few French. Most CONTRACT pilots are foreigners.
Anyone can read ppjn, that doesn't make you someone who knows about recruitement.
Pilots with hours in commercial aircraft will not be considered as "cadets" by ryanair. So no chance for a paid typerating there. but honestly, that's not the point here
sean1982 wrote:And even if so, with what mindset are fritz und anja gonna sit up front knowing that they'll be sacrificed in 2 years? Don't tell me that with 1800 hours A320 right seat the world is your oyster
Your comments make little to no sense, and to me prove a bit of ignorance regarding aviation jobs and the position ab-initio's find themselves in now.
ANY ab-initio would be VERY happy to use their brand new (self sponsored or not) TR to go fly 1500+ hours in a well-regarded airline, even if they know this is only for 2 years. Jobs like that are what separate them from the 1000's of other ab-initio's without job experience, and increase your opportunities for future jobs very significantly.
And actually, that same ab-initio with his 1800 hours has a better chance of finding a job then I do with my 3500 hours on the Avro. If colleagues on the Avro can be accepted in eg Emirates (777), that ab-initio with his/her 1800 hours has plenty of opportunities!
UAE777, I agree mostly except for the "good quality" of the Lufthansa cadets. Better, yes. Good, no.
LH flight training is all but the holy grail IMO. Just to give an example, that green lady FO that planted that A320's wingtip fence into the side of the runway on a windy German afternoon, saved miraculously by the alert captain who made a spectacular recovery. She was fresh from line training and a few months of flying.
There have also been incidents and accidents at their training facilities in Arizona.
That being said, I can't deny that the Belgian FTO's are on par or worse...
EK and all are still hiring flight crew from first world countries, but their hangars are already full of third world mechanics and engineers. Fortunately India has a pilot shortage of its own, otherwise the excess would be flooding towards DXB, no doubt. Give it some time and that too will change.
No problem, though, we seem to agree.
(assuming that the fleet keeps growing which according to your company and employees here on the forum is the case)