Germanwings A320 crash in France

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Conti764
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Conti764 » 26 Mar 2015, 12:19

sean1982 wrote:
Conti764 wrote:If a suicide did happen, it makes me wonder why he'd take 149 other lifes with him if hanging himself, taking pills or shooting himself in the head has the very same result...
It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last either :(
I know and it kind of disturbs me... An incident can always happen and often the flight crew manages to save the plane and everybody onboard. A hijack can always happen, but happens very rarely since the industrie took major steps regarding security after 9/11 and in most countries you can take a plane knowing it's well maintained and cared for so fatal accidents don't happen very often...

One thing you can never be sure of, is the mental state of the person whose hands you're putting your life in. And I doubt airlines have all the tools to prevent a mentally ill pilot from steering a plane... Since MH370 disappearing we have had three other major incidents taking many lives. One due to external factors, one due to extremely bad weather and now this... Although we don't know what happened with MH370, it is a large possibility that this plane got down due to pilots interference as well, which would mean it being two times a pilot decides to take many innocent lifes with him to end his own and that's something that frightens me more then any other technical failure, hijack or other incidents that can always happen with a plane but which has become very rare, fortunately...

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 26 Mar 2015, 12:20

Hi Regi,

I would be surprised, and disappointed, if only three Luchtzak members had doubts about what the press says or writes.

Doubting is not a negative thing; it is sign of open mindedness.
I strive to keep an open mind throughout my life and as an engineer I have been educated to keep a spirit of curiosity. Doubting is part of it and does not mean rejecting at all, just that you don’t swallow the pill as it is given to you.

I’d like to illustrate this with the old (then tinted) joke :
The guy asking the lady over the counter : “How long takes the flight to Brussels”?
Lady, busy on the phone : “One minute Sir”.
The guy : “Thank you”.


Back to your “ … before you automatically critisize without doing effort
I don’t think I deserve this acid comment.
I just expressed a doubt, I did not reject the possibility “automatically”. I also did the “effort” to explain why I have doubts, i.e. that I perceive it very unlikely for the chain of events to have occurred as presented : ATC noticing the departure from assigned FL, attempts to contact the crew, requesting assistance from his supervisor, contacting the military, scrambling the QRA flight and reaching the area all this within 9 minutes.
I also offered the possible alternative which is compatible with your wording “A Mirage 2000 was dispatched”, i.e. that the aircraft was not necessarily scrambled but already in flight. I then pointed that military activity in the area may lead to other questioning.

I hope you will consider my position and in the future avoid to “… automatically criticize without doing effort”. ;)
This is the aim of my post and hopefully could be applied throughout.

Pace & Salute.

H.A.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 12:55

Bralo20 wrote:BREAKING (CNN via NYTIMES):

One of the pilots on Germanwings Flight 9525 was locked out of the cockpit when the plane crashed Tuesday, a senior military official told The New York Times, citing evidence from the cockpit voice recorder.

Interesting development if true... (I already found that there was something fishy at the BEA press conference where they said that the plane didn't suffer decompression, that it seemed to be a controlled flight until the very end and when they didn't want to discuss anything from the CVR except at the start that it was interesting.

More: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world ... .html?_r=0
There was a live press conference just now (live on CNN);
deliberate action is now confirmed by the Marseille prosecutor.

SpottairBRU
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by SpottairBRU » 26 Mar 2015, 12:56

Just listened / watched the press conference. In a nutsheel, main points of what is confirmed:
- it was the f/o that was flying the plane, and the captain that went out of the cockpit
- the Flight Monitoring System was put to "descent"
- the door was kept locked
- the f/o was breathing until the impact
- the f/o remained silent, did not answer any radio call or to the person (captain?) knocking/banging on the door.
Fabien
Flown: AA5 / A300-310-318-319-320-321-330-340-380 / ATR42 / B717-737-747-757-777 / Bae146 / C130H / CRJ700-900 / Dash8-Q400 / E145-195 / Fokker 50 / HS748 / MD81 / RJ85-100 / Robin DR400

Lysexpat
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Lysexpat » 26 Mar 2015, 13:03

tolipanebas wrote:If you have to doubt good intentions of professionals paid for that, it's game over, of course. :(
More and more the righthand seat in a cockpit is a seat which is for sale. More and more airlines are recruiting people who pay them big money for being trained. Combine the resulting huge debts with the ever increasing workload and the constant downward pressure airlines are putting on the working conditions of their crew and you may have a lethal cocktail.
Hope I am wrong though!

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cathay belgium
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cathay belgium » 26 Mar 2015, 13:09

Hi,

Suicide f/o which became a mass murderer....
At least the A320 and Germanwings brand is out of discussion...

What a world ! After the MH murder by russians, and the MH suicide pilot /?/ another pilot went mad....

Leave this accident out of flightaccident statistics please,this was a first degree murder ... !

RIP .....

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E190E2

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 13:15

cathay belgium wrote:What a world ! After the MH murder by russians, and the MH suicide pilot /?/ another pilot went mad...
What is your official source that "the russians" are responsible for the MH-17 crash? And with "official" I mean ICAO or the Dutch Safety Board, not the US Department of State and/or the Ukrain president and/or local "witnesses".

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 13:17

So it seems it's like this crash:
http://avherald.com/h?article=46c3abde&opt=0

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 » 26 Mar 2015, 13:18

This literally makes me sick and brings tears to my eyes. I dont want to go down the path where I have to scrutinize everything my colleagues do :shock: :cry:

Bralo20
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Bralo20 » 26 Mar 2015, 13:21

It will be interesting to see how this develops. Best case scenario is a suicide mission but worst case scenario could be a act of terror...

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 13:25

Lysexpat wrote:
tolipanebas wrote:If you have to doubt good intentions of professionals paid for that, it's game over, of course. :(
More and more the righthand seat in a cockpit is a seat which is for sale. More and more airlines are recruiting people who pay them big money for being trained. Combine the resulting huge debts with the ever increasing workload and the constant downward pressure airlines are putting on the working conditions of their crew and you may have a lethal cocktail.
Hope I am wrong though!
No, you are damned right - it was discussed here:
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=55657

convair
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by convair » 26 Mar 2015, 13:49

sean1982 wrote:This literally makes me sick and brings tears to my eyes. I dont want to go down the path where I have to scrutinize everything my colleagues do :shock: :cry:
Shocking and very sad indeed!

I think the procedure you described earlier should be a MUST! Though not 100% safe, it could enable the CCM to either "neutralize" the "wrongdoer" or to try and eventually persuade her/him to change her/his mind.

Now, as we have a voice recorder in the cockpit, wouldn't it be adequate to have cameras as well? Although I know it could not prevent anything, it could maybe in some cases help understand what happened and I think privacy is not an argument here.

Stij
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Stij » 26 Mar 2015, 13:59

I had to delete posts in this topic.

Could everybody please keep cool, at least out of respect for the victims?

Thank-you,

Stij

mad_fab
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by mad_fab » 26 Mar 2015, 14:42

It's not because someone commits suicide at work that his job is the reason for that... Keep it cool guys, we have no clue about why he did that.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 14:52

Press conference Lufthansa, now live on CNN.

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 26 Mar 2015, 15:34

Press conference of the Procureur de la République de Marseille (in French) :

http://www.lesoir.be/833741/article/act ... se-passait

L’interprétation à ce jour pour nous, enquêteurs, est que le copilote, par une abstention volontaire, a refusé d’ouvrir la porte de la cabine au commandant de bord et a actionné le bouton commandant la perte d’altitude. Il a donc actionné ce bouton pour une raison que nous ignorons aujourd’hui, mais qui peut s’analyser comme une volonté de détruire cet avion.

The interpretation to date for us, investigators, is that the first officer , by a voluntary abstention, refused to open the door of the cabin to the captain and activated the button commanding the altitude loss . He thus pressed the button for a reason unknown to us today, but that can be seen as a desire to destroy the aircraft.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 26 Mar 2015, 16:08

Low-cost carrier Norwegian Air Shuttle said Thursday it would require two people in the cockpit at all times for safety reasons.

"When one person leaves the cockpit, two people will now have to be there," Norwegian's flight operations director Thomas Hesthammer said, after French officials said the co-pilot of the doomed Germanwings flight that crashed Tuesday appeared to have locked the pilot out of the cockpit and deliberately crashed the plane.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Flanker2
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Flanker2 » 26 Mar 2015, 16:18

Terrible news.
I can only imagine the hopeless distress and disbelief of the rest of the crew who tried to force the door open.

I think that it's time to equip cabin crew with personal VHF transceivers and foolproof SATCOMS in the cabin and train them to use them.
It could have helped in many instances, including the Helios crash, MH370, 9/11 and perhaps in this crash (contact with LH Technik who could have given the captain clues as to how to best break in, or faster fighter jet response, who could have tried to disable the F/O).
It could also help in instances where pilots fall asleep or aircraft crash in remote area's with survivors who need assistance, as rescue can be homed (VDF/"Radio QDM") towards the signal and save valuable time.

A transceiver can be had for 100 Euro's, so it's a bit ridiculous that it's not been considered until now.
I have a few airline pilot friends of mine who carry their own transceivers in their flight bags, I don't see why each crew member doesn't have one for emergency use only. It's not rocket science, I'm sure that cabin crew are smart enough to use them.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 26 Mar 2015, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 26 Mar 2015, 16:23

airazurxtror wrote:Low-cost carrier Norwegian Air Shuttle said Thursday it would require two people in the cockpit at all times for safety reasons.

"When one person leaves the cockpit, two people will now have to be there," Norwegian's flight operations director Thomas Hesthammer said, after French officials said the co-pilot of the doomed Germanwings flight that crashed Tuesday appeared to have locked the pilot out of the cockpit and deliberately crashed the plane.
Altough other carriers do not communicate about it, I hope they've all decided to do so as from this morning.

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 26 Mar 2015, 18:34

airazurxtror wrote:According to Le Monde, the captain was inside the cockpit and the F/O outside.

Le Wall Street Journal a dévoilé l'identité du copilote qui était aux commandes au moment du crash. L'homme s'appelle Andreas Lubitz. Il était âgé de 28 ans et est originaire de Montabaur.
It's the other way around, even if the (co-)pilot in the cockpit was indeed Andreas Lubitz, who had 630 hours flight time.

Anyway, Norwegian and Air Canada will change internal regulations so there are always 2 crew members in cockpit, following the Germanwings tragedy (although for sure if a pilot wants to crash a plane, nobody will prevent him from doing so).

This whole story upsets me very much. Aviation is the safest way of travelling until a suicidal pilot takes 149 persons with him in his desperate attempt to end his life.

This opens the question of the psychological evaluation of pilots. How often do they get a medical examination that includes a psychiatric evaluation?
André
ex Sabena #26567

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