Germanwings A320 crash in France

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fcw
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by fcw » 31 Mar 2015, 16:48

cnc wrote: if the commander knew right away what the intension was he would have used the axe for sure. used a cellphone to contact ground ops,...
There is NO axe in the cabin of an aircraft!
Mobile phone doesn't work at altitude, nor during high speed descent.

fcw
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by fcw » 31 Mar 2015, 16:57

Acid-drop wrote:if it's a suicide how do you explain than the descent was realively slow (read : normal) and that the direction and speed didn't change.
Wouldn't you make sure you really die if you want to comit suicide ?
This looks like (bad) luck. Yes a moutain was in the way, but it could have been a flat lake also
The result would have been the same on a flat lake.

cnc
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cnc » 31 Mar 2015, 18:10

fcw wrote:
cnc wrote: if the commander knew right away what the intension was he would have used the axe for sure. used a cellphone to contact ground ops,...
There is NO axe in the cabin of an aircraft!
Mobile phone doesn't work at altitude, nor during high speed descent.
the axe is by figure of speak... by all means it could be an oven used to ram the door and our crew does have phones that work in our a/c...

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Boeing767copilot » 31 Mar 2015, 23:32

The co-pilot of Germanwings flight 4U9525 interrupted his pilot training at the Flight Training Pilot School for several months. Thereafter the co-pilot received the medical certificate confirming his fitness

Source: Lufthansa
31/03/2015

The co-pilot of Germanwings flight 4U9525 interrupted his pilot training at the Flight Training Pilot School for several months. Thereafter the co-pilot received the medical certificate confirming his fitness to fly.

To ensure a swift and seamless clarification, Lufthansa – after further internal investigations – has submitted additional documents to the Düsseldorf Public Prosecutor, particularly training and medical documents. These also include the email correspondence of the copilot with the Flight Training Pilot School. In this correspondence he informed the Flight Training Pilot School in 2009, in the medical documents he submitted in connection with resuming his flight training, about a “previous episode of severe depression”.

Lufthansa will continue to provide the investigating authorities with its full and unlimited support. We therefore ask for your understanding that we cannot provide any further statements at this time, because we do not wish to anticipate the ongoing investigation by the Düsseldorf Public Prosecutor.

As already confirmed last Thursday to the public the co-pilot held a fully valid class 1 medical certificate during flight duty on 24 March

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 01 Apr 2015, 10:16

Just read this statement as well. It finger points to a serious gap in the system.
I am no doctor. But there seems to be an attitude that mental problems are treated too pragmatic.
If you have a troath ache, you go to the doctor, he sees the red throath and subscribes medicin.
After some days all is over , you do not go back to the doctor and you show up at work. No questions asked.

When is a diagnose of depression with suicidal tendencies noted? When a patient goes to the doctor to complain that he doesn't feel well I suppose. So he gets treatment, medicines, sick leave. And than he shows up at work again, no questions asked, no follow up by the doctor's side.
Only in case that somebody is forced to undergo menthal health care (read: being interned in a mental detention center ) , he is followed up. And even than. Look at several recidivist rape and murder cases in the Netherlands where released mental patients went on a zombie style rampage hours after their release from TBS.

I make a blunt comparison:
A pilot loses a leg in a car accident but doesn't mention this to his employer. He gets a prosthesis and goes back to work. :shock:
This is what happened to Andreas. Even worse: he mentioned his state to his employer. And when the patient declares himself fit for duty, it is all OK.
"do you still have suicidal thoughts ?"
"No"
"OK, off you go , chop chop, in the cockpit, airplane is waiting"
No doctor will ask a patient " and the leg, it grew back well I suppose?"

It reminds me also at how the military still views PTSD / shell shock. Shut up about it, do your job.

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 01 Apr 2015, 10:17

sn26567 wrote:
regi wrote:To Sean's question about previous suicides:
Egypt Air 990
EgyptAir's crash was caused voluntarily by the pilot.

Sean's question was about F/A's having caused a crash. And no, I don't think that any F/A ever caused a crash voluntarily.
OK, understood.

Inquirer
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Inquirer » 01 Apr 2015, 10:54

Just a question out of personal interest, but what are you proposing then?

That a doctor informs the employer whenever an employee has a potential functioning problem, brutally violates his patients confidentiality, we see the employer step in to decide on the treatment to follow in order to get the employee back on track asap and at the end -in case no verifiable method to measure successful completion is available- the decision may be taken by them to forbid the employee to ever return to what he did before and simply replace him?

I very much doubt such is legally possible and Id say I am happy for that to be the case, despite these tragic events, as an isolated case should not form the basis to treath employees as living machinery, of course, nor to come up with potentially very long lists of perfectly curable problems leading to an automatic life long disqualification from a whole set of both professional as well as recreative activities, just because there isn't a waterproof way to measure total healing.

I don't think that is a solution as it will only mean people will shut up about their problems and not seek help at all. Yet if you want them to speak up and seek help,you also need to accept that they can be helped (healed) and come back, otherwise you are simply asking them to turn themselves in and take themselves out of course.

Note how this is a philosophical question of the first degree: do we accept people can change, or not? In the latter case, it has huge consequences, not just for the way in which pilots are deemed fit for flight, but also for all other kind of daily activities and even to our juridical system, as a whole lot of offences should then automatically lead to a life term, for instance, if no correction is possible.

flightlover
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by flightlover » 01 Apr 2015, 11:36

Sorry to, maybe, wake some sleeping dogs; but that is called dismissal on medical grounds.

If a employee is found unfit for duty and has a prolonged sick leave or there are serious limitations to what he can do, the companies medical examiner can declare that person unfit. He than can propose special adjustments to the employer in view of helping that employee to get reintegrated in the company.
If for some reason the employer is unable to adjust the workplace to the special needs, the employer can fire that employee as he is no longer able to execute the job assigned to him/her.

Now, having suicidal tendencies seems a good qualification to state that a pilot is no longer able to do his job with the responsibility that is expected of him. And even after medical treatment the mental state will be questionable (as in relapse is quite common).

However, if dismissal is an automated result of going in treatment there will be more pilots flying whilst being mentally ill. So it will always be a point of discussion.

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 01 Apr 2015, 16:00

Previously I posted already that this a manager problem.
If employees fear to loose their job because of health problems, this is a point to be solved by the managment.
Employees with specific disorders should be given the chance to stay with the company ( I mentioned "auditor" for example )

The problem with Andreas is probably from another level: not to lose his job, but to lose his life time dream to actually fly . This is much more personnal and I don't know how to solve this.
Similar cases happened with sport celebrities who had to stop their sport which was not only their income but their life time dream.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 02 Apr 2015, 16:00

"...On Apr 2nd 2015 the States Attorney of Marseille announced, that the second black box, the flight data recorder, has been found and has been recovered from the crash site..."

(AvHerald.com)

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 02 Apr 2015, 16:11

But the prosecutor hasn't said anything yet about the state of the FDR or whether the data can be recovered...

Let's hope it hasn't suffered too much from the impact.
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Flanker2
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Flanker2 » 02 Apr 2015, 16:30

IMO There are different levels of suicide behavior.
People who have previously acted upon suicidal thoughts by attempting suicide should never be at the controls of an aircraft.
People who have heavy depression resulting from for instance the loss of a beloved family member can also have temporary suicidal thoughts as the grief is too much to bear. Such people can fully recover.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 02 Apr 2015, 19:10

Forty "extremely damaged" mobile phones have been found after the Germanwings crash and will be examined, said the prosecutor of Marseille.

On their side, the German investigators have revealed that Andreas Lubitz has researched suicide methods and cockpit door security on his tablet the day before the crash.
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airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 02 Apr 2015, 20:05

L'état de cette boîte noire, endommagée par le feu, «laisse espérer» la possibilité d'une exploitation, a expliqué le procureur de la République de Marseille, Brice Robin. La durée pour décrypter une boîte noire est très variable selon son état, de quelques heures à plusieurs semaines.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france ... rouvee.php

The state of that black box, damaged by fire , " allows one to hope " for the possibility of exploitation , said the prosecutor of Marseilles, Brice Robin . The duration to decrypt a black box varies depending on its condition , from a few hours to several weeks.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 03 Apr 2015, 12:52

The French BEA investigators confirm that the examination of the FDR data show that the First Officer selected a descent to 100ft and subsequently increased speed several times.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32173632

Image
Photo of the FDR by AFP

Image
First report of BEA published by DGAC
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Conti764
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Conti764 » 04 Apr 2015, 10:49

regi wrote:Previously I posted already that this a manager problem.
If employees fear to loose their job because of health problems, this is a point to be solved by the managment.
Employees with specific disorders should be given the chance to stay with the company ( I mentioned "auditor" for example )

The problem with Andreas is probably from another level: not to lose his job, but to lose his life time dream to actually fly . This is much more personnal and I don't know how to solve this.
Similar cases happened with sport celebrities who had to stop their sport which was not only their income but their life time dream.
I agree... I work for the government and when physical or mental issues rise preventing us from doing our job in a proper way, we are being 'sidelined', sort of speak. However, except some very grave conditions we cannot be fired, a reassuring thougth...

I can imagine a completely different environment in a private company.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 06 Apr 2015, 11:04

The news flow is so grimm:
LH knew about his mental problems but the German aviation authority wasn't informed ( as it should have been - as I could understand )

I start to have the gut feeling that this will get very nasty for the company. Insurance companies will go after them. When " negligence" comes in the picture, we talk about gold pots for lawyers.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 06 Apr 2015, 22:29

A Germanwings flight (4U 3882) from Hanover to Rome has been diverted to Venice after a passenger suffered an anxiety attack when the plane crossed the French Alps.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 55523.html
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 16 Apr 2015, 17:26

The memorial service for the victims of 4U9525 will be held at Cologne Cathedral tomorrow at 12:00 CET. A live broadcast will be provided.
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 18 Apr 2015, 17:29

Turkish Airlines' CEO Temel Kotil told newly-trained pilots to tie the knot to avoid another Germanywing tragedy.
Kotil, who addressed 86 newly trained pilots at a pilot training center in İstanbul on Thursday, said that last month's plane crash of Flight 4U 9525 in France “taught” that an airline pilot's duty is critical.
"Our pilot friends, whether they are men or women, their lifestyles are very important," he added. "Therefore, dear friends, we are absolutely encouraging those of you who are single to marry."
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2015/04/1 ... t-married/
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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