Germanwings A320 crash in France

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 30 Mar 2015, 17:17

Lysexpat wrote:Jumping to conclusions and changing procedures overnight could create other problems which could be worse than the one we are trying to solve.
That's exactly what happened last week when almost all European airlines adopted the "two-rule" for cockpits overnight. Initially LH was opposed to it, they had probably already evaluated the pros and cons, but at the end of the day they wanted to keep a good image and bowed to the general pressure.
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by RTM » 30 Mar 2015, 19:30

Aren't we getting a little bit carried away? If I read the posts here I get the impression that 90% of the cabin attendants are suicide terrorists...

Lets be honest, the risk of letting a cabin crew member in the cockpit is low to non existant. They have cockpit access anyway. So trusting them to be a monitor on the flightdeck in case one of the pilots needs to take a dump, is just a small step. Agreed that they need to receive some additional training as to what to do in some circumstances, but that's all.
On the other hand, leaving a single pilot in the cockpit has been proven to be a real risk. When there are at least two in the cockpit, there is a fighting chance to say the least.
Also, I think there is a difference between committing suicide and taking others along, and committing murder before suicide. That is a couple of steps further down the road of coo coo. I know, never say never, but riskless aviation is utopia.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 30 Mar 2015, 19:40

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20 ... r-pere.php

Le copilote de l'Airbus A320, Andreas Lubitz, soupçonné d'avoir précipité l'avion contre une montagne des Alpes françaises mardi dernier, a suivi des traitements pour des tendances suicidaires dans le passé, a indiqué lundi la justice allemande.
«Le copilote a été en traitement psychothérapeutique pour des tendances suicidaires il y a de nombreuses années, avant l'obtention de son permis de pilotage», a indiqué le procureur de Düsseldorf, Ralf Herrenbrück. Mais, ajoute-t-il, les dernières consultations médicales «n'ont pas attesté de tendance suicidaire ou d'agressivité à l'égard d'autrui».

Andreas Lubitz , suspected of having precipitated the plane against a mountain in the French Alps on Tuesday, had followed treatment for suicidal tendencies in the past , said Monday the German justice.
" The co-pilot has followed a psychotherapeutic treatment for suicidal tendencies many years ago, before obtaining his pilot's license ," said the prosecutor of Dusseldorf, Ralf Herrenbrück . But, he adds, the latest medical consultations " didn't show suicidal or aggressive tendencies towards others.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by RTM » 30 Mar 2015, 19:51

You keep posting inFrench... Any chance you can ad an English translation to it?

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror » 30 Mar 2015, 20:25

RTM wrote:You keep posting inFrench... Any chance you can ad an English translation to it?
For most of my posts if not all of them, I have supplied an English translation or at least a summing up.
Being a Franco-German plane belonging to a German company that crashed in France, most of the newspapers comments are in French or German.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cnc » 30 Mar 2015, 20:41

and we appreciate it airazurxtor

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by RTM » 30 Mar 2015, 20:42

I understand. And I don't mind.

But I just don't understand the language. I can just about order a beer.
So, in case you're wondering, the brief English summary's I've seen you do before, are appreciated.

b-west

Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by b-west » 30 Mar 2015, 22:00

airazurxtror wrote:
RTM wrote:Y most of the newspapers comments are in French or German.
True, the whole disaster has gone by largely unnoticed in the rest of the world... :?

I appreciate the translations, don't really see the need to put the French (or German, Dutch, Chinese) source text as well.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 » 30 Mar 2015, 23:18

RTM wrote:Aren't we getting a little bit carried away? If I read the posts here I get the impression that 90% of the cabin attendants are suicide terrorists...

Lets be honest, the risk of letting a cabin crew member in the cockpit is low to non existant. They have cockpit access anyway. So trusting them to be a monitor on the flightdeck in case one of the pilots needs to take a dump, is just a small step. Agreed that they need to receive some additional training as to what to do in some circumstances, but that's all.
On the other hand, leaving a single pilot in the cockpit has been proven to be a real risk. When there are at least two in the cockpit, there is a fighting chance to say the least.
Also, I think there is a difference between committing suicide and taking others along, and committing murder before suicide. That is a couple of steps further down the road of coo coo. I know, never say never, but riskless aviation is utopia.
Finally! The only sensible thing I've read here in days!
How many planes have been brought down by suicidal cabin crew again??!

b-west

Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by b-west » 31 Mar 2015, 00:03

Agreed. This is an extremely extremely rare event. No matter how much precaution, this is such a rare and exceptional action that you will never be able to prevent it. The two person cockpit rule seems nothing more than an immediate, knee jerk reaction, to show the public that something is being done. Especially in this social media driven landscape, with viral tweets and a large online mob always at the ready with the pitchforks, nobody wants to be seen as doing nothing. The world seems to collectively loos its cool whenever a major event happens.

I for one keep the utmost trust in the pilots and flight attendants who have kept me safe on hundreds of flights already, and I watch this whole hysteric security circus with a due sense of dread and weariness.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by convair » 31 Mar 2015, 00:40

sean1982 wrote:
RTM wrote:Aren't we getting a little bit carried away? If I read the posts here I get the impression that 90% of the cabin attendants are suicide terrorists...

Lets be honest, the risk of letting a cabin crew member in the cockpit is low to non existant. They have cockpit access anyway. So trusting them to be a monitor on the flightdeck in case one of the pilots needs to take a dump, is just a small step. Agreed that they need to receive some additional training as to what to do in some circumstances, but that's all.
On the other hand, leaving a single pilot in the cockpit has been proven to be a real risk. When there are at least two in the cockpit, there is a fighting chance to say the least.
Also, I think there is a difference between committing suicide and taking others along, and committing murder before suicide. That is a couple of steps further down the road of coo coo. I know, never say never, but riskless aviation is utopia.
Finally! The only sensible thing I've read here in days!
How many planes have been brought down by suicidal cabin crew again??!
b-west wrote:Agreed. This is an extremely extremely rare event. No matter how much precaution, this is such a rare and exceptional action that you will never be able to prevent it. The two person cockpit rule seems nothing more than an immediate, knee jerk reaction, to show the public that something is being done. Especially in this social media driven landscape, with viral tweets and a large online mob always at the ready with the pitchforks, nobody wants to be seen as doing nothing. The world seems to collectively loos its cool whenever a major event happens.

I for one keep the utmost trust in the pilots and flight attendants who have kept me safe on hundreds of flights already, and I watch this whole hysteric security circus with a due sense of dread and weariness.

I fully agree with the comments in those 2 posts.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 31 Mar 2015, 12:13

It is getting grimmer by the day. Reading that the co pilot had been treated for suicidal tendencies...
Did his parents know about that? In case of "no", it is just another prove how lonely this person was. If "yes", than I would ask if his parents have taken steps, considering his job and eagerness to fly.
His ex GF goes to the press and chatters freely about his strange attitude. Well, this person should have asked herself : "do I take the risk to book a flight with German Wings knowing that Andreas is at the stick?"

All too late.

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi » 31 Mar 2015, 12:15

To Sean's question about previous suicides:
Egypt Air 990

( as far as we may conclude already that the cause was Andreas' suicidal behaviour )

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cnc » 31 Mar 2015, 13:56

regi wrote:It is getting grimmer by the day. Reading that the co pilot had been treated for suicidal tendencies...
Did his parents know about that? In case of "no", it is just another prove how lonely this person was. If "yes", than I would ask if his parents have taken steps, considering his job and eagerness to fly.
His ex GF goes to the press and chatters freely about his strange attitude. Well, this person should have asked herself : "do I take the risk to book a flight with German Wings knowing that Andreas is at the stick?"

All too late.
seriously? :roll:

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 31 Mar 2015, 13:59

regi wrote:To Sean's question about previous suicides:
Egypt Air 990
EgyptAir's crash was caused voluntarily by the pilot.

Sean's question was about F/A's having caused a crash. And no, I don't think that any F/A ever caused a crash voluntarily.
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 31 Mar 2015, 15:27

The State Attorney of Marseilles reported that the human remains of 78 people have been identified using DNA testing. The Prosecutor said in response to media reports surfacing in Germany that the first officer's remains have been identified, that those reports were false.

Recovery Services reported that an access road to the crash site has been finished and opened, first heavy recovery machinery is on the way to the crash site.

Source: AvHerald
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 » 31 Mar 2015, 15:38

Lufthansa is cancelling its 60th anniversary celebrations in memory of those killed aboard the Germanwings plane crash in France last week.

Lufthansa had planned to host an anniversary event on April 15, but said it would now instead show live coverage of the official state memorial service to be held at Cologne Cathedral on April 17.
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Acid-drop » 31 Mar 2015, 15:56

if it's a suicide how do you explain than the descent was realively slow (read : normal) and that the direction and speed didn't change.
Wouldn't you make sure you really die if you want to comit suicide ?
This looks like (bad) luck. Yes a moutain was in the way, but it could have been a flat lake also.

the suicide theory based on sounds is bit light.
Prooving the theory by looking at the psycho past of the pilot is also light.
Maybe we discover next week than 15% of germanwings pilots are followed by a shrink, doesn't make flying more dangerous.
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger » 31 Mar 2015, 16:03

Factsheet EASA on EU security measures in civil airliners

"... What are the current rules on the minimum crew members required in the cockpit? On 27 March 2015, EASA (the European Air Safety Agency) has issued a recommendation for airlines to observe the “four-eye-rule” in the cockpit; stipulating that in the case of the Captain or First Officer leaving the cockpit, a member of the crew should be present in the cockpit with the remaining pilot.

European safety regulations require that pilots shall remain at the aircraft controls unless absence is necessary for physiological or operational safety needs.

There is no European requirement that a member of the cabin crew must enter the cockpit in the event a pilot needs to take a short break for such needs. There is however a requirement that the cockpit door can be opened from the outside in case of emergency..."

Continues here:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_ME ... 724_en.htm

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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cnc » 31 Mar 2015, 16:11

Acid-drop wrote:if it's a suicide how do you explain than the descent was realively slow (read : normal) and that the direction and speed didn't change.
Wouldn't you make sure you really die if you want to comit suicide ?
This looks like (bad) luck. Yes a moutain was in the way, but it could have been a flat lake also.

the suicide theory based on sounds is bit light.
Prooving the theory by looking at the psycho past of the pilot is also light.
Maybe we discover next week than 15% of germanwings pilots are followed by a shrink, doesn't make flying more dangerous.
why would you speed things up? you are alone in the cockpit, know the route and the terrain below and want to keep suspicion away as long as possible. just an normal flight to the end...
if the commander knew right away what the intension was he would have used the axe for sure. used a cellphone to contact ground ops,...

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