Germanwings A320 crash in France

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Pocahontas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Pocahontas »

Speculations. Every hour a different reason .Let's wait for the results of the investigation!

fcw
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by fcw »

RTM wrote: They did not comment on the emergency cockpit entrance buzzer... So, was it not used, or was it not disclosed as to prevent the public from drawing conclusions.
If the buzzer was used, should be audible on the CVR, and there would be no response to it from the flightdeck, the door unlocks after 30 sec. This can be overruled from the flightdeck by selecting the door closed. That is a conscious and deliberate action, that would deny entrance.
Banging down the door is anyway a last desperate resort, as these doors are designed to keep people out...
If the buzzer wasn't used... Why...?
The buzzer and the keypad can be deactivated from the cockpit.

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

:o if that's true why wasnt there a cabin crew member in the flightdeck. I thought this would be SOP everywhere now??

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror »

Pour l'heure, les enquêteurs ne peuvent pas déterminer qui du commandant de bord ou du copilote a quitté la cabine de pilotage. Le copilote, engagé en 2013 par Germanwings. Il comptait 630 heures de vols. Sa nationalité n'est par ailleurs pas connue avec précision.
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france ... -chute.php

One doesn't yet know who was inside the cockpit : captain or first officer.
The nationality of the first officer is not known exactly ...
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Pocahontas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Pocahontas »

How can they determine if it was one of the pilots knocking the door? Do pilots bang with a different sound?

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

No, but if they hear one leave, it's the most likely option that it is the same one that tries to get back in. :roll:
I say again, where was the cabin crew member?

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tolipanebas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by tolipanebas »

On Airbus, the door design philosophy is such that there is no more need for anybody in the cockpit (be it the remaining pilot, or an alternative cabin crew member) to grant access in emergency, so the SOP you are asking for is not in the Airbus FCOM since they have turned procedures around: You need to decline access, otherwise the door always opens in emergency.
A deliberate and harmful rejection of such an emergency request for entry by the remaining pilot (or whomever might be with him) is of course never taken into account by anybody!?
We are living in very strange times, that much is a given.

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

That's the same in the 737. One of the reasons why we always have a cabin crew member "replace" the pilot in the flightdeck when he/she leaves is to prevent situations like this. It's not a Boeing FCOM procedure, it's a company procedure

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi »

Homo Aeroportus wrote:
Passenger wrote:
regi wrote:A Mirage 2000 was dispatched because there was no more contact, and the fighter reached the area before the crash. It resembles a lot like the Helios crash. Must be dreadful for the figher pilot as well, witnessing such a disaster.
Could be, but there is no official confimation about this encounter yet. I doubt it, as French ATC only pushed the alarm button few minutes before impact.
I also doubt about this.

The nearest air base is BA115 at Orange (LFMO), about 130km from the crash site. Mirages 2000 are based there.
I don't think the French Armée de l'Air maintains QRA with pilots on board and strapped ready to blast off at the end of the runway.
Even if, and considering the ATC only needed 2 minutes after noticing the altitude change and unsuccessful comm before calling for a scramble, It seems impossible to be on site before the crash.
The time lapse between departure from assigned FL380 and the crash is 9 minutes only.

The only possibility for a military aircraft to be on scene prior to the crash is that it was already in the air at that time.
And I would really prefer to read that there was no military activity in the air, including drones, or on the ground near the coast at that same time.

H.A.
I am surprised that 3 members automatically doubt this despite it was in the public press.
in Dutch :http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20150326_01599359
in French:http://www.ledauphine.com/vaucluse/2015 ... e-aerienne
In German : http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/aeroteleg ... s-auf.html
and do your own work to find it in English before you automatically critisize without doing effort

Didymus
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Didymus »

Three (translated) versions of the same source doesn't make it more credible. Always beware of churnalism in these cases.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Boeing767copilot »

How To Lock and Unlock Airbus A320 Cockpit Door

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROIH3KCEIvs

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tolipanebas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by tolipanebas »

sean1982 wrote:That's the same in the 737. One of the reasons why we always have a cabin crew member "replace" the pilot in the flightdeck when he/she leaves is to prevent situations like this. It's not a Boeing FCOM procedure, it's a company procedure
I understand that, but from this perspective, it's a pointless company addition.
The aim of any security procedure is to prevent anybody willing to do harm enter the cockpit and replace the pilots; if and when the wrongdoer is an assigned pilot himself, no security procedure, no SOP and no cabin crew member next to him is going to stop him, you know?
Potential occasions of wrongdoing for a pilot aren't just limited to cruise phases with the colleague taking a leak, of course. I am sure you too can imagine ample phases during a flight where the pilot/wrongdoer succeeds at immobilising his unsuspecting colleague sitting next to him in a closed cockpit and then proceed with whatever his plans are, so I won't give inspiration to lunies here, just saying it's not hard for any assigned pilot in the cockpit already to gain full and sole control over his plane, should he desperately want to.
No SOP will prevent such an event, sadly. :(
Last edited by tolipanebas on 26 Mar 2015, 10:42, edited 1 time in total.

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

no I know that, it's a situation that is never completely preventable. The only "plus" I can see in this scenario when a cabin crew member is present in the flightdeck is that (and I'm speaking with a lot of if's and when's here because nothing is sure at this point) if the remaining pilot is in fact intentionally flying the aircraft into terrain it would be hard for him/her to "fly the plane" and deal with the CCM. I'm not saying the CCM is going to be the saviour of the day, but at least he/she would be able to open the flight deck door by simply turning the doorknob to let the other pilot in, which in itself would not ensure a succesfull outcome, but it could help.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by tolipanebas »

sean1982 wrote:no I know that, it's a situation that is never completely preventable. The only "plus" I can see in this scenario when a cabin crew member is present in the flightdeck is that (and I'm speaking with a lot of if's and when's here because nothing is sure at this point) if the remaining pilot is in fact intentionally flying the aircraft into terrain it would be hard for him/her to "fly the plane" and deal with the CCM. I'm not saying the CCM is going to be the saviour of the day, but at least he/she would be able to open the flight deck door by simply turning the doorknob to let the other pilot in, which in itself would not ensure a succesfull outcome, but it could help.
Purely theoretically indeed, but I doubt the wrongdoer/pilot would then chose this specific moment of his flight to proceed with his morbid plans. He might just as well opt for any other moment of the flight deemed suitable to immobilise his fellow pilot by surprise, thus effectively becoming the sole man on the flight deck once again.
Remember he's the assigned pilot: he has ample time and can chose his moment.
No SOP can ever prevent a lunie pilot from very bad wrongdoing, scary as it is.
What's gong to be next, I wonder? Armed guards on the flight deck?
Until the madman proves to be that guard then... :(
Too much of Hollywood seems to be sneaking into our daily lives, these days!
Last edited by tolipanebas on 26 Mar 2015, 10:53, edited 1 time in total.

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

I agree, the only 100% secure operation is when the aircraft remains on the ground. unfortunatly.

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tolipanebas
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by tolipanebas »

At some point, one would almost hope for a some sort of an incredible technical failure as that is explainable and preventable...
This kind of a scenario however, can effectively reoccur everywhere ,any time at any airline and there's nothing we can do about it, unless not flying at all like you say!
If you have to doubt good intentions of professionals paid for that, it's game over, of course. :(

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KriVa
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by KriVa »

Not sure about Germanwings itself, but at Lufthansa, no cabin crew member needs to be in the cockpit while on of the pilots steps out of the cockpit. If Germanwings follows the same SOP (which is rather likely), there was nothing wrong according to the SOP.
A lot of other companies follow the same procedures. It's only legally mandated for US-based airlines (and, I seem to remember, flights in US airspace, even if foreign.)
Thomas

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Conti764
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Conti764 »

If a suicide did happen, it makes me wonder why he'd take 149 other lifes with him if hanging himself, taking pills or shooting himself in the head has the very same result...

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

Conti764 wrote:If a suicide did happen, it makes me wonder why he'd take 149 other lifes with him if hanging himself, taking pills or shooting himself in the head has the very same result...
It wouldn't be the first time, and it won't be the last either :(

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror »

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/20 ... _3214.html

Selon nos informations, c'est le commandant de bord qui se trouvait dans le cockpit et le copilote à l'extérieur.

According to Le Monde, the captain was inside the cockpit and the F/O outside.

Les deux pilotes étaient Allemands, croit savoir le Bild. Père de deux enfants, le commandant de bord, Patrick S., était originaire de Düsseldorf. Le copilote Andreas L. venait, lui, de Montabaur, Rhénanie-Palatinat.

Le Wall Street Journal a dévoilé l'identité du copilote qui était aux commandes au moment du crash. L'homme s'appelle Andreas Lubitz. Il était âgé de 28 ans et est originaire de Montabaur.
Last edited by airazurxtror on 26 Mar 2015, 13:59, edited 1 time in total.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

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