Germanwings A320 crash in France

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sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote:It's just a theory, Ii admit, but logically, when you can't rule out a kamikaze pilot, you also can't entirely rule out a kamikaze cabin crew member either, can you?
And yet the procedure now rushed through everywhere actually gives such a person a perfect occasion to go ahead with his intentions (facing just a single pilot) whereas before he was as good as unable (facing 2 pilots)!!!!
It thus shouldn't be introduced, it should be abolished ASAP, by logical deduction.
what is needed is NOT a human supervision, but a the technical fix which can't fail.
It's not a rushed procedure. It's a proven procedure with a lot of companies across the world.

Please eleborate how many crashes have occured due to a deranged CCM crashing an aircraft?

b-west

Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by b-west »

(just a question: did my post get deleted or did I push a wrong button?)

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi »

Relying on the actual revelations, assuming that this co pilot has done it deliberately, it opens the door ( sorry for that ) for the pilotless airplanes .

This momentum where the customer and user have doubts about the human factor could be used to push ahead with this concept.

Odd idea:
even with a FA replacing a pilot going to the toilet, something could happen so fast that the presence of the FA is of no use.
A system could detect by parameters that something is wrong and takes over control immediately, steering the aircraft to the nearest landing spot.
If somebody in the cockpit tries to do something to sabotage , a (nerve) gas could be injected to neutralize the culprit ( and the other attendants too unfortunately )
At this point, most or all readers must declare me nuts.
Maybe less nuts than somebody who takes other people with him in his nuttiness?
( btw: I am holder of several licences implementing specific ( returning ) tests and I am officially declared mentally fit )
Last edited by regi on 27 Mar 2015, 11:01, edited 1 time in total.

Flanker2
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Flanker2 »

IMO, Sean's Ryanair procedure is the best, no matter how you look at it.
Yes, a cabin crew member who might be insane enters the flight deck, while a pilot that might be insane goes out. It evens out.
Yes, the pilot would have to get rid of an F/A instead of another pilot, which he could do at any time during flight. So having a F/A in there only maintains the same layer of safety. Right now at Germanwings it's too easy as is proven by this accident.

This accident also illustrates to me why pilots should spend a few months working in heavy maintenance. There are other easier ways into that cockpit than trying to break into that reinforced door. (ways I just won't say here for security reasons).

UAS is the future, with one pilot on board, and another pilot on the ground.
We're not there yet, but it will come.

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi »

Press conference by German Wings:
looking and listening, I heard that the pilot had been declared physically 100 % OK.

By my profession and occupations and experiences, this is a kind of language that is disliked and immediately recognised as avoiding the problem.
I hate it when people make firm statements, but keep silent about the underlying problem deliberately.

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror »

Les journaux allemands livrent ce matin de nombreuses informations sur le lourd passé psychiatrique du copilote de Germanwings. Ce matin, Bild titre «Der Amok-Pilot». C'est le tabloïd qui révèle les preuves de ce qu'on pressentait, après avoir eu accès à son dossier médical: Andreas Lubitz souffrait de graves troubles psychiatriques.

En 2009, il s'agissait bien «d' attaques de peur-panique» qui l'avaient poussé à interrompre sa formation de pilote. Le centre aéromédical de la Lufthansa contacté par Bild, confirme cette information et affirme avoir signalé aux autorités fédérales du transport aérien ( Luftfahrt Bundesamt) que l'élève-pilote avait subi un «épisode dépressif profond mais décroissant». Lors du stage de Phoenix (Arizona), passage obligé des futurs pilotes de la Lufthansa, les Américains l'avaient listé dans la catégorie inapte au vol. Dans son dossier figure la mention «SIC», un acronyme signifiant la nécessité d'un «suivi médical régulier spécial».

Plusieurs journaux reprennent des informations provenant de sources proches de l'enquête selon lesquelles le pilote de la Germanwings traversait en ce moment «une grave crise personnelle liée à la situation du couple» qu'il formait avec sa petite amie.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/20 ... e-amok.php

Andreas Lubitz had severe psychiatric disorders. He had had to stop his formation of pilot; at Phoenix, the American had marked him as unfit to fly. Moreover, he had at present problems with his girlfriend.

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/flug-4u9 ... .bild.html
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

Desert Rat
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Desert Rat »

For info, in Air France, you fail once ...you are out...Forever

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi »

mental checks:
at the beginning and than later in a questionnary.
A lot of trust is put in the hand of those who are undergoing the test :roll:
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/03/26/europ ... index.html

Drug and alcohol tests refused by unions. :?
( I would include medication in those tests as well )

I have pointed in the past towards mismanagment.
If employees fear that they would loose their job, income, licence if they come out of the box, than I speak about mismanagment. Employees should not fear to report a grave problem, even if they would loose that specific job.
Managment should be pro active and install non repressive procedures. For example: "OK, you cannot be a pilot anymore, but do you agree to undergo training to become an auditor? "
On the other side, more stringent repressive procedures could also be implemented. A kind of lie detection test can be implemented by airlines, but also at airports for random checks.

Hidden prescription notes:
This person has hidden his disability to work. This is a very sad and worrying situation.
I have heard in the past that GP ( you general doctor) are obliged to report if a patient is epileptical so he cannot have a driving licence.
(in Dutch: http://www.gezondheid.be/index.cfm?fuse ... rt_id=8201 )
GP's provide medical certificates, also referring to a mental state. If such a GP knows about a medical state that interferes with a previous assesment, he should report that. This happens already in Belgium by GP's who know that their patient is mentally not fit anymore to handle fire arms. ( depression, Alzheimer,... )
What I am suggesting here is that if you obtain a certain certificate provided by a doctor, the medical secrecy falls away and the doctor has the duty to report it. If a pilot has a burn out and receives anti depressiva, his licence should be revoked automatically. But even that system could be overruled by getting treatment abroad, or getting medication from somebody else etc.
A very difficult balance between trust, obligation, responsability, repression, I know. :|

airazurxtror
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by airazurxtror »

At Lubitz's home, several sick leave certificates were found that had been torn - valid for the day of the crash. These documents support the thesis that Andreas Lubitz hid his illness to his employer and its business environment ," said the prosecutor . They are evidence of an "existing illness and related medical treatment," the source said .

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france ... lubitz.php
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

regi
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by regi »

Desert Rat wrote:For info, in Air France, you fail once ...you are out...Forever
That is the easy way.
Somebody can be temporarely sick and heal afterwards.

The result of such a drastic one sided managment is that employees will hide their problems. Exactly what happened here.
Btw: managers, especially French ones, should undergo tests as well. I refer here to the wave of suicides at France Telecom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_S.A.#Staff_suicides

And it is a hot topic in the USA , with suicides and mass murder by PTSD sufferers.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger »

Filip Van Rossem, A320 pilot and A320 instructor, on Reyers Laat (Flemish tv VRT):

it’s nonsense that a suicide attempt will be prevented if a steward/stewardess replaces the pilot, leaving the cockpit for a toilet break. Look what happened here: the co-pilot had to do just one simple input: “descend at this rate”. The aircraft then crashed itself. If there would have been another person in the cockpit, probably a stewardess, the co-pilot would have done the same input, and then overpowered her easily. He would also have prevented her from opening the cockpit door for the captain. The armed doors were kind of an impulse reaction after Nine Eleven, but it’s now proven that they kill people. "Always two in the cockpit" is nonsense.

http://deredactie.be/permalink/2.38205?video=1.2284526
could be the program doens’t show up. Then click on the small image just below the video (= the photo with text "Jean-Pierre Van Rossem: een vliegtuig kan een moordwapen zijn")

edited -> correct name (thanks Dydimus)
Last edited by Passenger on 27 Mar 2015, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 »

Passenger wrote: "Always two in the cockpit" is nonsense.
It's probably nonsense but now all airlines are running to implement this new rule. Even Lufthansa which yesterday was still reluctant (and, incidentally, all the airlines of the Lufthansa Group, including Brussels Airlines). It is a natural reaction to public outrage at what happened. No airline wants to be left behind.

By the way, passengers could also help: any candidates for a jump seat?
André
ex Sabena #26567

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sn26567
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn26567 »

airazurxtror wrote:At Lubitz's home, several sick leave certificates were found that had been torn - valid for the day of the crash. These documents support the thesis that Andreas Lubitz hid his illness to his employer and its business environment ," said the prosecutor . They are evidence of an "existing illness and related medical treatment," the source said .
Current Germanwings information: Flight 4U9525
Cologne 27/03/2015 27.03. 03.40 p.m.:
Co-pilot of Germanwings flight 4U 9525: Sick note was not submitted to Germanwings


COLOGNE/BONN – Currently there is media coverage that the co-pilot of flight 4U 9525 was given a sick note for the day of the accident on Tuesday. Germanwings declares that a sick note for this day was not submitted to the company.

This corresponds to the insights of the senior prosecutor of Dusseldorf. According to these insights, “a torn-up current sick note, also valid for the day of the incident” was found in the co-pilot’s documents. According to the prosecutor’s statement, this “would - according to preliminary evaluation - support the assumption that the deceased had concealed his illness towards his employer and his occupational environment.”
André
ex Sabena #26567

sn-remember
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sn-remember »

sn26567 wrote:By the way, passengers could also help: any candidates for a jump seat?
First they will have to be shown the switch to unlock the door ...
..
Personally I favor the idea of a FA filling the void inside the cockpit. If only for human reasons.
The mind is not only about professional skills, its' also related to human interaction.
..
And the cockpit door being locked for the duration of the flight is probably an appropriate measure.
..
I've no words to comment on this tragedy, except to say that it's highly unfortunate the LH's health team failed to detect this case. Certainly it's' the responsability of any airline employee to raise the alarm if he/she suspects/detects a strange behaviour occurence from a colleague on duty.
..
Maybe a crew of three pilots is not a bad idea ?
Last edited by sn-remember on 27 Mar 2015, 17:49, edited 1 time in total.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:By the way, passengers could also help: any candidates for a jump seat?
The good old days with jump seats... Too bad they were cancelled when the armed cockpit doors were introduced after Nine Eleven.

I really wonder what ICAO will do now, because this crash makes that the LAM Mozambique crash can no longer be seen as an isolated once-only incident.

cnc
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by cnc »

Lysexpat wrote:
cnc wrote:you think an FA can save an aircraft when a pilot changes data and pushes the nose down 90%?
The FA iis there to open the door for the other pilot, not to play the hero and intervene with the actions of the remaining pilot.
ah yes they would not be affected by G-forces or any attempt from the ill minded person at flight deck.
this "new" rule will do some good in the future, might also add some extra disasters who knows but it is not the sollution to prevent disasters like this one.

Didymus
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Didymus »

Passenger wrote:Jean-Pierre Van Rossem, A320 pilot and A320 instructor, on Reyers Laat (Flemish tv VRT)
(...)
You mean Filip Van Rossem. J-P has a slightly different background. :)

sean1982
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by sean1982 »

Our forum "experts" are on the loose again :shock:
FML

How exactly do you kill a flight attendance while seated with your barehands within the time that is required to turn a doorknob?

Bralo20
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Bralo20 »

What I wonder is how long it would take to get through the cockpit door using the crash axe (in the case one is located in the cabin and not (only) in the cockpit)... We all know that the cockpit door is kind of reinforced (Kevlar) and designed to withstand small arms fire but it's also a weak spot. You have the escape hatch in the lower part of the door which is only hold in place with a couple of quick release pins. Yes, the hatch is designed to only be opened from inside the cockpit but a couple of well placed blows with the axe should weaken it quite a bit, especially since the reinforcement is designed for bullets and not so much for devices like an axe which deliver a different kind of force compared to a bullet.


Just thinking out loud.

Passenger
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Re: Germanwings A320 crash in France

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:Our forum "experts" are on the loose again :shock:
FML
At least, I have listened to what that A320 instructor Filip Van Rossem said, and I accept it. But then, I don't have to defend an airline here.

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