Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

[Inquirer]

I agree in principle with Stij that is isn't very complicated for most of us, but clearly it is too complicated for 2 percent of passengers at one airline and probably a similar number at other airlines too, so why not improve their travel experience too now that the tools are available for it?

Finding out you forgot to check in online in time and having to fork out €70 per person isn't great fun for a stressed family of 4 on the way home after a holiday abroad, I am sure!?

Just like Stij, I think that iso sending out 4 reminders to have them do it themselves, simply sending them their boarding pass right away is called customer service, don't you agree then?
You still haven't explained what's so complicated about such a simple product improvement, although you take great offence in the suggestion it may be related to the good money made from charging a consirable fine to those poor 2% who'd need the service?

[RoMax]

Indeed. Sean, nobody says that check in is a complicated process or even annoying. But these days you have to wonder what's the point of this process. In terms of pax processing this is currently besides security screening one of the biggest questions asked by airlines and airports. Is the whole point of checking in still a value adding element. Most agree it isn't, all around the world trials are going on to simplify or even remove the process, but about the way how to do this opinions still differ.

[sean1982]

I agree in principle with Stij that is isn't very complicated for most of us, but clearly it is too complicated for 2 percent of passengers at one airline and probably a similar number at other airlines too, so why not improve their travel experience too now that the tools are available for it?

Finding out you forgot to check in online in time and having to fork out €70 per person isn't great fun for a stressed family of 4 on the way home after a holiday abroad, I am sure!?

Just like Stij, I think that iso sending out 4 reminders to have them do it themselves, simply sending them their boarding pass right away is called customer service, don't you agree then?
You still haven't explained what's so complicated about such a simple product improvement, although you take great offence in the suggestion it may be related to the good money made from charging a consirable fine to those poor 2% who'd need the service?

And you haven't answered how you would deal with pax that arent "digital". I can understand on a BRU-GVA that this isnt an issue but let me tell you that on an ALC, OUD or TNG to name a few 60% of the pax have never seen a pc or smartphone up close.

And I've answered your question a few times allready. It's part of the airline's security program

[sn26567]

let me tell you that on an ALC, OUD or TNG to name a few 60% of the pax have never seen a pc or smartphone up close.

Hm! I thought it was necessary to have at least a PC with a printer to print a Ryanair boarding pass! Or a smartphone in a paperless society to save the trees.

[sean1982]

A lot of those pax get their boarding passes printer by a travel agency

[Inquirer]

As they say in English: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

If you can't see that automatically sending a boarding pass to all passengers booked on a flight is far more customer friendly than sending out repeated reminders for checking in online, I really don't know how you define product improvements?!

Who're the modernists, and who're the traditional carrier these days, I'd almost start to wonder even?!

Only a few years ago, you'd find these kind of discussions on the necessity for automatically included (and thus paid for) processes like checked baggage for instance, with people working for traditional airlines explaining in length how it was exaclty the same, but far better even.
In fact, you're doing exactly as they did, I hope at least you notice the irony?
I don't need to tell you that you can't stop a market evolution, so this is going to come your way too, whether you like it or not.
So is life.

[suomalainen]

I agree that it makes life much easier for many passenger to do automated check-in. But still some thoughts, what about seat selection ? Which is not done for about 70-75% of the passengers. This could give some very difficult situations at the gate and on board on full flights.

By not checking people in, you leave some flexibility for the gate agents. Further like I said earlier it gives a much higher risks on delay's because of missing passengers.

SN for example is extremely flexible for its passengers at BRU. They can show up until STD-5 at the gate to board. And if you need to cancel then extra passengers which takes times and then to re-do the load sheet it will very likely causes delay's.

A solution would be to close at STD-10 but then you will have the risk that you will need to look for luggages which takes time too (swissport will be very happy in this case ).

My suggestion is very simple, keep it as it is but try to optimize the procedures and possibilities for everybody and do automated check-in only for connecting passengers !

[Inquirer]

Firstly you ignored what I said and secondly you didnt answer my question ...

Firstly, I didn't ignore what you say, I merely doubt it is entirely correct.
Allow me not just to take your professional word for it for once in he face of ample real world examples from UK companies advertising exactly what you say is not allowed. How can that be then, I think?
Maybe you could provide some backup in the form of the legal document showing it is explicitly forbidden indeed to use automated online check in, like you maintain.

Secondly, you've answered your question already yourself, provided it was this one in a reply to André's somewhat similar question on how non-digital passengers use the online check in tool today:

those pax get their boarding passes printed by a travel agency

So, nothing would change for them vs today.
In fact, it would make life a bit easier for their agency; not the aim, but it won't harm either, I am sure.
Besides, since when does a new feature needs to be interesting to all customers to implement it????

What about seat selection?

You normally do that already at booking, don't you?
But should you have done so yet (because your ticket class doesn't allow it so soon), the system I know will assign one to you (based on your seat preference stored in your Miles and More profile).
If you somehow would like to change the automated seat selection, you just have to click on the seat number on your mobile boarding pass and you may choose a new one which is still free, after which a new boarding pass gets sent right away.
If you work for Brussels airlines, then your employer actually explains it better than I do on its website: http://www.brusselsairlines.com/com/mis ... ck-in.aspx
Good IT can really make life easy by offering great product improvements; it's just a matter of being willing to implement it.


Just saw that automated EasyPASS border control process we briefly talked about yesterday, is expanding to Berlin, Germany.
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/berlin/ ... l-airport/
Another proof you can't hold back on progress.
IMHO, very soon everything except the security screening will become automated at airports, from check in, over boarding, to border control and rightfully so: we're no longer living in the 1960s, are we?
Out go all those manual processes and out go also mosts of the costs, meaning both the taxes as well as the fees.

[suomalainen]

What about seat selection?

You normally do that already at booking, don't you?
But should you have done so yet (because your ticket class doesn't allow it so soon), the system I know will assign one to you (based on your seat preference stored in your Miles and More profile).
If you somehow would like to change the automated seat selection, you just have to click on the seat number on your mobile boarding pass and you may choose a new one which is still free, after which a new boarding pass gets sent right away.
If you work for Brussels airlines, then your employer actually explains it better than I do on its website: http://www.brusselsairlines.com/com/mis ... ck-in.aspx
Good IT can really make life easy by offering great product improvements; it's just a matter of being willing to implement it.

Ok, I follow you, but how many people have a M&M profile ? On flights to AGP/RAK/BCN/FCO max 10%

And how many tickets are actually sold through the SN (or partner) websites as well max 25-30%

Many are still sold via Thomas Cook/Jetair or any other tour operator. And as far as I know, some of those confirmations have no possibility to do self check-in let stand automated check-in. And what if you belong to a group. Then it is sometimes not possible as well.

All people on this forum are quite experienced travellers and know all the ins and outs of airport and flying. But many are not used to it.

After working 2 years at BRU (I went back to the Hotel Industry) I can say that many passenger lose 50% of their brain capacity when entering an airport and get all nervous. And it happens quite often that people try to check-in with their boarding pass !

[Inquirer]

Yes, I understand, but all that will change.
The same was said about 'simple' online check in to, some years ago and look where it is heading!
As time goes by, all those new things become mainstream, so better embrace them right away, rather than fight them, because it's an uphill battle; one you really can't win.
Once an automated process is well up and running, the cost savings from full impementation are huge, so you can bet your life on it being pushed a fair bit harder than it is done only today.
Still remember how people got incentives to use online features at first? No one does that any longer, quite on the contrary even. The main problem I see is that certain companies rely on outdated processes being kept for revenu purposes, but yours isn't one of those, hence them being already a frontrunner on it, contrary to some others (see the way in which Sean is seeking excuses as to why ryanair won't do it, at least not anytime soon, because they will be forced to by reality one day too, believe me).
So is life.

BTW- the reason some people get nervous at an airport may very well be found in all the outdated and almost inexplicably weird processes which are still in place there and which they aren't very familiar with if they aren't flying very often, because they see them nowhere else in life anylonger: not at the theatre, not at the cinema, not at the subway or railway station.

[sean1982]

The people who are confused sometimes are exactly the people who I described. People who expect a normal check-in desk as they have been used to for years. And you want to send them a boarding pass automatically to an email adress that they dont have over an internet connection that's none existent

[Inquirer]

Your continued argueing with professionals here is actually offensive and proves that your knowledge about what's going on behind the scenes is next to nothing.
For a bedtime read I recommend the NCASP, all modules

I have no problem admitting I do not work in aviation, but allow me to say you are offended quite rapidly by my simple demand for a proof of what you claim as a fact here, especially since you yourself are very rightfully asking for proof in other topics all the time, whenever a questionable claim is made.
I am sure that NCASP thing you refer to is available online? Otherwise, what's the point in refering to it?
With all your professional knowlegde, it mustn't take you nearly as long as it would take me to provide a link to the exact paragraph unambigously stating it is FORBIDDEN to use PRE-STORED personal data to send out a boarding pass to a passenger booked on a flight, PRO-ACTIVELY. Please do so.
In the absence of any proof from your side so far, I simply go by what several airlines, including some which operate under supervision of the authorities which you said were forbidding exactly that, are doing since some time now and take from it you are either wrongly informed yourself, or deliberatly misinforming other people.
If an airline doesn't do it, it doesn't mean it's forbidden; yet if one airline does it, it means it isn't forbidden.
Nothing offensive about that conclusion, just a logical deduction.

[sean1982]

And again you ignore half of my post. The people who use passbook on a regular basis and who spends half of their life online are not the issue here. It's the people who actually want and need a check in desk.

NCASP stands for national civil aviation security program and no .. It's not available online and yes, it's forbidden to be quoted. So you stick to your profession and I'll stick to mine thank you very much

[Flanker2]

I think that these 2 posts sum it up from an operational point of view. This is a no-go aspect, it would make operations a true mess. Not every flight, but many flights.

The problem with automatic check-in for all pax is that even no-shows and people who are not supposed to fly will be checked-in, causing delays at the gate (load sheet LMC's, final calls, luggage loading, pregnant women or drunk men refused boarding, people realising that their passports are expired, etc... etc...).

I personally think C/I is necessary. I worked several years for SN in groundops and when somebody was checked-in we knew he was ready for the flight. We knew we did not had to wait for the others. In this forum everybody is very happy when a flight leaves on time or earlier (my personal best was STD -18 minutes ) and that is because of the difference between check-in and non checked-in persons.

And by not checking-in people you move all the problems to the gate area, which is a secure area. So potential longer queues and more frustrated people. At the C/I it is easier to deal with people. Nothing is more frustrating then being told you are denied to board a plane when you actually can see it ! Being airport staff is not easy, but not checking people in whould have the potential to make it a hell !!

Another scenario:
Everybody is checked-in automatically, but at the gate closing time, there are 30 people missing, with no idea whether they are inside the airport or not. They could be travelling together and be stuck in traffic or maybe they could be unrelated people stuck somewhere in or around the airport (as recent mediatised events like airport shootings, robberies, etc... show, it doesn't take much to close off area's surrounding airports). I've been stuck before security once myself recently, see trip reports section. The people who man the check-in are also often the same who man the gates after closing check-in, so they can quickly get better situational awareness.

Where on shorthaul flights this could seem manageable (but still is a mess that most airlines won't want to deal with), imagine what it would be on longhaul flights. I get nausea just thinking about it...

But I agree that some aspects of the idea could be used, especially for frequent travellers whose passport data is stored and who know their way in and out of the airport.

Recently, I helped an older Finnish lady (a total stranger) who didn't speak English, French or Dutch.
At check-in, I noticed that the check-in lady repreatedly told her that she was already checked-in and just needed to head to the gate nr XX, pointing to the A4-sized boarding pass that the lady was holding. I was probably printed by a younger relative.
Later, I found this woman queing up just before me at the checkpoint before the tunnel to terminal A. She was holding her home-printed boarding pass and she didn't know what to do. She didn't understand the barcode/QR code concept and started scanning the page randomly after seeing other people scanning. I decided to help her and tried to scan it myself, but it just wouldn't scan, and I tried 30 times.
I walked her back to the check-in and explained the check-in agent the problem. She then printed her a boarding pass and I took her back to the checkpoint. Even this one had problems scanning at the checkpoint but it worked after half a minute of trying. Many others had problems and a queue was starting to form.
The old lady was so stressed by this whole situation that she stayed with me all the way to the gate. She even offered to buy me coffee.

This shows how little stupid things can become a big problem for a flight.

As a personal opinion, I think that airlines should stop thinking about ways to reduce staff and should look at ways to increase staff in order to bring higher returns. I've seen this at JL where they have an overkill of operational staff and offer such great levels of service that people don't mind paying for it.
It also weirdly creates a form of loyalty, so that pax who fly other airlines start feeling uncomfortable when they don't get the same attention again. After my recent "adventure" with TK, I have to admit that I was scrambling to look for a JL flight to replace my other trips with TK, until I fell for those dirt cheap AZ fares

[Squelsh]

Below some of the more intelligent replies I saw in this whole discussion, going straight to the core of the check-in process. Nothing much more to add to that.

The problem with automatic check-in for all pax is that even no-shows and people who are not supposed to fly will be checked-in, causing delays at the gate (load sheet LMC's, final calls, luggage loading, pregnant women or drunk men refused boarding, people realising that their passports are expired, etc... etc...).

...you move all the problems to the gate area, which is a secure area. So potential longer queues and more frustrated people. At the C/I it is easier to deal with people. Nothing is more frustrating then being told you are denied to board a plane when you actually can see it ! Being airport staff is not easy, but not checking people in whould have the potential to make it a hell !!

Concerning the ID-check at boarding stage, as sub-topic sprouted out of auto-check-in:

Now, what remains opened is the cursory ID check made when boarding,
For Schengen, this is something that is specifically let to the appreciation of national authorities.

How about the owner/operator of a flight? y'all can say schengen this and schengen that, freedom of movement for persons and goods, not allowed to ask for an ID-card etc... what a bunch of BS. If an operator decides to persue a correct manifest, and do this by cross-checking a boarding pass with an ID, then this is their right. It is your right not to play this game along, you will be denied boarding, simple, very simple. National authorities have nothing to do with this, it's company policy and their right. I fail to see what Schengen has to do with this and why paragraphs full have been written on this.

At the basic, it is so simple, kinda like when a company doesn't want to use a GHA like swissport or aviapartner, they can start-up their own ground handling for their movements (forget the legal notion of 'maximum 2 handlers at BRU airport' in that case). "nobody touches this plane but us", kinda like DHL, but I'm drifting off-topic.

And this 1960's bashing is just plain dumb. If people would only know how many COUNTLESS procedures/contours/SITA/checklists, etc.. today are still based on that jet-age, they'd be surprised. They are all still good.

Holiday-wise, I check-in at hotels, check-in for cruises, yes, also check-in for flights, with or without luggage.

[Inquirer]

And again you ignore half of my post. The people who use passbook on a regular basis and who spends half of their life online are not the issue here. It's the people who actually want and need a check in desk.

Yes, and for those people, nothing changes if you replace self check in online by an automated version.
I am not proposing to use automated online check in as SOLE check in method, am I?
I propose to replace the current online check in as we know it today, but a much simpler automatic issuing of the boarding pass right away.
and no, I do not think I am very smart or something, I haven't invented that method of check in, it's currently being done by several airlines, and it's very convenient not to have to go online during a meeting, but simply receive a text message with your boarding pass, automatically.
If you can't see the extra convenience in that, I really don't know!

I agree that some aspects of the idea could be used, especially for frequent travellers whose passport data is stored and who know their way in and out of the airport.

Voila.
That's really all I mean to say and in fact if one re-reads my opening post, one could read that much.

NCASP stands for national civil aviation security program and no .. It's not available online and yes, it's forbidden to be quoted.

Ah, how convenient, if I may say so.
And may I have your professional take on how it is possible that other airlines -operating under the supervision of authorities which you say are fobidding what I porpose- are doing exactly that then?
Or are you suddenly also forbidden to give your opion on other airlines' processes now?

But I got it: there's no good reason NOT to offer it, other than that it reduces the number of people who will show up at the airport check in desk further (and in case of ryanair, will have to pay the fee).
THAT sir, is the sole reason and all the rest is window dressing.
I wanted to discuss a product improvement I really like and would suggest being implemented throughout, just as IATA is doing (see the OP), but it is sad to see you just can't get your mind around discussing a general aviation topic without first thinking about the consequences for your airline; it makes your professional take on all sort of matters in other topics much less credible, suddenly.
Again, that is not an insult, it's a logical conclusion after this very sad discussion.

[sean1982]

Thank you Squelsh
Inquirer, as far as i know both flybe and BA are not irish operators

[Inquirer]

Inquirer, as far as i know both flybe and BA are not irish operators

Yes, yet may I remind you of your very first post, for a minute?

In some countries the check-in proces is actually an security requirement which is required by the country's aviation authority .. UK and Ireland being 2 of them.

Anyway, a simple reference to an official text online stating that automatically sending out a boarding pass based on stored passenger data is forbidden will do, you know?
If some outdated rule makes this feature impossible to use by irish airlines, I fully understand that and I can only suggest them to lobby to have that rule lifted asap.
However, for the past 2 or 3 days, all I have seen are several scenario's in which an automatic check in feature wouldn't have been very helpful indeed, serving as the the reason not to offer it to all those other passegers who could make very good use of it and would find it a very convenient improvement over the current process.

[sean1982]

Changing a procedure in an airline is not something that goes from 1 day to another. It more like trying to steer Titanic 180 degrees regardless wheter or not it is allowed by the aviation authority. If this is not the case you're looking at a process of years (unless it would be something critical)

Furthermore, Squelsh is giving another 15 operational reasons not to do it. Excuse me now, im off to Cyprus.

[Stij]

And we're locking the topic!

Everything (to much) has been said...

Stij