Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

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Inquirer
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote:Oh ..: btw .. Latest figure in FR I think was 2% of all pax who had to pay the fine. Hardly a pot of gold
Everything is relative, in life.
Just to quantify the discussion: the fee to check in at the airport seems to be €70 these days: if indeed 2% of passengers forget to check in like you say, that makes 1,7M people annually, or €120M.
Somehow I think the €120M in lost revenues (which go straight from the bottom line too) are the real reason you wont see this anytime soon as a product improvement at ryanair; not any imaginary security requirement from the UK or Irish government. ;)

And so you see, a topic which was useless to start in your eyes this morning, yields an interesting discussion nevertheles.

sean1982
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sean1982 »

It's not 70€ but 15€ for a reprinting but Im done argueing with you .. You're always right anyway, or so you think

Inquirer
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote:It's not 70€ but 15€ for a reprinting but Im done argueing with you .. You're always right anyway, or so you think
That's for the reprint as you say, so after you have checked-in already, right?
Once again: here we are discussing automatic CHECK IN itself, as I hope you have noticed by now?
May I suggest that in future you first read carefully the opening post of a topic before commenting on it, so that you know what is being discussed, because this is now your 7th reply and you are still replying off topic: one would almost say it is done on purpose, like politicians often do when they don't want to admit to something. :?

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sn26567
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sn26567 »

sean1982 wrote:Latest figure in FR I think was 2% of all pax who had to pay the fine. Hardly a pot of gold
2% of 85 million x 70€ = 119 million euros. Quite some kg of gold !
André
ex Sabena #26567

sean1982
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sean1982 »

2% that pay either 15€ or 70€ depending on what they forgot to do, but that's beside the point as the 2 prime SN fan boys clearly show that this topic was purely created to piss on FR again.

I said what I had to say. Its an IAA requirement.

b-west

Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by b-west »

I think this is appropriate here... (And in many other topics) Image

suomalainen
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by suomalainen »

sean1982 wrote:No, cause you still need to enter your passport details somewhere. If you forget to do that you still wont get a boarding card.

Btw teach, every airline can decide in their own security program if they want ID checks to be done regardless if itsa aviation authority requirement. SN has obviously chosen not to do so
The ID checks are more country specific ! In Belgium it is not an obligation, neither in Germany or Italy. But In Spain they do check ID (Which is actually against EU Schengen-Law, which says free transport of people within the borders of Schengen)

I personally think C/I is necessary. I worked several years for SN in groundops and when somebody was checked-in we knew he was ready for the flight. We knew we did not had to wait for the others. In this forum everybody is very happy when a flight leaves on time or earlier (my personal best was STD -18 minutes :D ) and that is because of the difference between check-in and non checked-in persons.

And by not checking-in people you move all the problems to the gate area, which is a secure area. So potential longer queues and more frustrated people. At the C/I it is easier to deal with people. Nothing is more frustrating then being told you are denied to board a plane when you actually can see it ! Being airport staff is not easy, but not checking people in whould have the potential to make it a hell !!

sean1982
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sean1982 »

Indeed! Spain, uk and Ireland have a history (and currency) of terrorism and that is partly why ID checks are required. There have been trials to see if something could be changed or not, but so far no decision has been taken by the aviation authorities. In fact ... Spain recently made their rules more strict.

The other issues you mention are also very true!

BTW .. STD -18?! That's impressive ;)

suomalainen
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by suomalainen »

sean1982 wrote:Indeed! Spain, uk and Ireland have a history (and currency) of terrorism and that is partly why ID checks are required. There have been trials to see if something could be changed or not, but so far no decision has been taken by the aviation authorities. In fact ... Spain recently made their rules more strict.

The other issues you mention are also very true!

BTW .. STD -18?! That's impressive ;)
Even STD -22 was almost the case on an afternoon flight to HAJ (DASH Q400) if 2 pax realised sooner it was their flight boarding !

And not only flightcrew has many stories to tell ! The live of Groundops is never boring ! Specially pax with short connections and flights to TLV and Africa !

Inquirer
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Inquirer »

Oh dear.
I came to check my topic once more, only to find it in tatters.
Should have known it would end like that.

Now, can we please stay on topic?
Thank you!

Stij
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Stij »

The topic has been cleaned from all not on topic posts and, insult and all hints at insults.

Thanks for staying on topic!

Cheers,

Stij

tsx
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by tsx »

So, about the "security" value brought by check in, it looks like all agree there's indeed no advantage between
- online check in when entering ID details at that time
- automatic check in when you entered your ID details earlier during the booking process.

Now, what remains opened is the cursory ID check made when boarding,
For Schengen, this is something that is specifically let to the appreciation of national authorities.
Some countries have requested to implement that, others decided against it.
Difficult to draw a conclusion from that.

So the question remains :
What does that bring today in practice to the security of flight travel ?

(consideration : given the way it's done now, there's no possibility for the gate agent to take the necessary time to determine wether an ID is forged or not. Not to mention equipment needed)


----

As for the practical advantages of checking in to say you're in the airport and ready to flight :
it would also be possible to use the airport mechanism of checking the boarding passes.
If a passenger isn't at security 30' before flight, he's not really in.
LHR actually started to do that and label it Positive Boarding

sean1982
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sean1982 »

I think in BRU they do it when entering the A terminal, allthough for slow walkers 30 min is a bit tight I think if you need to be near the T gates

b720
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by b720 »

Intra-Schengen is like travelling within Belgium.. One is supposed to have been processed upon entering and exiting the external boarders of the treaty countries. When it comes to air travel, the most important is that no one boards the flight with weapons or dangerous items.. Security checks take care of that, regardless of identity of the pax.. Before the days when airlines were served a hefty fine for transporting pax with 'fake"or without the proper entry documents to their destination, ID checks were reserved to passport control agents only.. Within the Schengen area, everyone on board of the flight is permitted to travel to his/her destination.. Flying to the UK is different of course, even though it is EU.. A non EU citizen residing within the Schengen area has the right to travel freely within Schengen,; however that person might need a VISA to enter the UK. SN (for instance) will be fined by the UK authorities if they transport someone from BRU to LHR (e.g.) who does not hold a valid UK visa upon arrival, that person's residency status might be perfectly legal in Belgium, and other Schengen countries... Vice Vers as well.. Some common wealth country citizens may travel to the UK freely, but might need entry visa s for Schengen countries.. I fly Intra Schengen at least once a week, I have not shown an ID for years... I, D, CH, B, and list goes on.. Unless I check in luggage of course..

Inquirer
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Inquirer »

tsx wrote:So, about the "security" value brought by check in, it looks like all agree there's indeed no advantage between
- online check in with entering ID details at that time
- automatic check in where you entered your ID details earlier during the booking process.
Thank you, that is indeed the sole difference there is to it.
tsx wrote:Now, what remains opened is the cursory ID check made when boarding
Yet that is not part of the check in process at all, it's a separate thing which is done later (or not).
tsx wrote:So the question remains:
What does that bring today in practice to the security of flight travel ?
I fully agree with you that the way it is done now doesn't bring much security at all; its not done by border agents or dedicated security staff, nor are they using machinery to check the ID for possible forgery.
What it does is it creates a pre-arranged window of opportunity for authorities to raise the level of checking from 'just done for the show' to 'for real' should there ever be a need for such.
If you compare the way in which commercial staff on certain airlines check your IDs to the way your documents get checked over by professionals when entering say the USA (or the Schengen zone as a non EU citizen), you know what I mean.
tsx wrote:As for the practical advantages of checking in to say you're in the airport and ready to flight :
it would also be possible to use the airport mechanism of checking the boarding passes.
If a passenger isn't at security 30' before flight, he's not really in.
LHR actually started to do that and label it Positive Boarding
Indeed, IMHO, it's another brilliant innovation to make things go smoother.
Now, imagine the 2 combined: you get your boarding pass automatically sent to you 2 hours before departure without any action from your side whatsoever, AND somewhere in the airport premisses it gets scanned so as to tick you off as 'present' at the airport. Not at the gate like now (because that's actually quite late), but earlier, say at security or when passing by in the lounge.
Done, all without intervention of ground staff or customer, so much easier, with lower costs and with no risk of any fees.

FWIW- innovation needn't end there, and it doesn't.
At FRA or ZRH for instance, you board the plane automatically by simply scanning your electronic boarding pass at the gate which is equipped with an access mechanism, just as found at an underground station.
A gate agent is present, but isn't actually tearing a strip from boarding passes or manually scanning the QR-code on the self printed ones, because THAT too is so 1960s.
Are there any plans to come to such a system in BRU, or do you need an own terminal for that?
I am sure that in a couple of years, flying through big airports will be much more hastle free than it is today by combining all those new electronic possibilities, thus making flying on a European flight into something as convenient as taking a train.

Stij
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Stij »

Inquirer,

I fully agree! only the security check (and border control) remain a hassle as even luggage check-in is now being automated!

BTW, when going to the A pier, Brussels scans your boarding pass as well, do they do something with this data? Or do they simply check that you've got a boarding pass?

BTW2 In Helsinki there's already automated border control for EU citizens! so even this is a queue less...

Cheers,

Stij

Inquirer
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Inquirer »

Stij wrote:Inquirer,
I fully agree!
Only the security check (and border control) remain a hassle.
Thank you.
Indeed, I guess in future too, the security check is going to remain the sole hassle to flying: all the rest is going to go away, whether some like it or not.
Stij wrote:When going to the A pier, Brussels scans your boarding pass as well, do they do something with this data? Or do they simply check that you've got a boarding pass?
Maybe Atlantis can answer this question?
In any case, the data is available so it's only a matter of IT to link it to the systems of the airlines and reap the benefits from it as doing the presence check right at the gate of the aircraft is actually quite late in case somebody isn't there and his luggage needs to be offloaded. Doing it earlier makes the airlines win time, so customers win in convenience thanks to more on time departures, while airlines may win some money at it too.
Stij wrote:In Helsinki there's already automated border control for EU citizens! so even this is a queue less...
Indeed, not only in Helsinki, btw.
Hamburg has it too: simply scan the chip of your biometric passport, look into the lense of the scanner and if your face matches the picture on your passport, the door to the Schengen zone magically opens!

So much is possible these days, it's amazing how some airports and airlines still hold on to basically very archaic methods from the 1960s, just because those make everything overly complicated and allow to make very good money from helping out people struggling with it all: there's just no excuse any longer.
It's offering expensive help to self-created problems, that's what it is. :twisted:

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sn26567
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sn26567 »

Stij wrote:BTW, when going to the A pier, Brussels scans your boarding pass as well, do they do something with this data? Or do they simply check that you've got a boarding pass?
In my opinion, it's simply a way to allow only passengers on the airside of the airport.
André
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sean1982
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote:
Stij wrote:Inquirer,
I fully agree!
Only the security check (and border control) remain a hassle.
Thank you.
Indeed, I guess in future too, the security check is going to remain the sole hassle to flying: all the rest is going to go away, whether some like it or not.
Stij wrote:When going to the A pier, Brussels scans your boarding pass as well, do they do something with this data? Or do they simply check that you've got a boarding pass?
Maybe Atlantis can answer this question?
In any case, the data is available so it's only a matter of IT to link it to the systems of the airlines and reap the benefits from it as doing the presence check right at the gate of the aircraft is actually quite late in case somebody isn't there and his luggage needs to be offloaded. Doing it earlier makes the airlines win time, so customers win in convenience thanks to more on time departures, while airlines may win some money at it too.
Stij wrote:In Helsinki there's already automated border control for EU citizens! so even this is a queue less...
Indeed, not only in Helsinki, btw.
Hamburg has it too: simply scan the chip of your biometric passport, look into the lense of the scanner and if your face matches the picture on your passport, the door to the Schengen zone magically opens!

So much is possible these days, it's amazing how some airports and airlines still hold on to basically very archaic methods from the 1960s, just because those make everything overly complicated and allow to make very good money from helping out people struggling with it all: there's just no excuse any longer.
It's offering expensive help to self-created problems, that's what it is. :twisted:
You cant help yourself can you?
It's off course VERY complicated to click on a button that says "check-in" where you get 4 reminders for and you dont even need a printer as you can send your boarding pass straight to your smartphone up to 2 hours before departure.

If you call that complicated ... You need help

(Btw, if you think everybody is digital these days you're mistaken once again. My grandmother travels 4 times a year and doesnt have a computer, let alone a printer and an email adress. So the epiphany you think you have wouldnt even work for a Large portion of the travelling public)
Last edited by sean1982 on 03 Mar 2015, 15:54, edited 2 times in total.

Stij
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Re: Automatic check-in removes a process that adds no value whatsoever

Post by Stij »

Before I have to delete 50% of all posts again:

Can we conclude that it's not very complicated for the moment, but if we would receive the boarding pass itself instead of an invitation, it would be even easier and more pax-friendlier?

Kind regards,

Stij

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