Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

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sean1982
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
Lysexpat wrote:
Passenger wrote: Never never? I don't agree with that. Some airlines, like Brussels Airlines, have a company policy to tell the passengers what's going on, even if that has expensive consequences like having to pay the indemnity as per EU rule 261/2004.
You mean they would admit both pilots felt asleep instead of making up a redicoulous story about callsigns?
I thought we were talking here about airlines trying to avoid the legal compensation in case of a delay.
A better example then yours above would be that hit-and-run accident from a low cost airliner in Barcelona few years ago, who hit another airliner on the taxiway but continued the journey, ignoring remarks from several paqssengers, probably afraid of loosing too much time.
Dont talk about things you dont know. Nothing was noticed by neither crew or pax on both aircraft untill after the aircraft landed in IBZ ... And yes, I studied the official investigation. NO SINGLE CREW of any airline is going to fly with known damage to aircraft. Mistakes where made yes, but to call it "a hit and run" is outrageous. The only thing these compensation rules (and nitwits) are doing is to put companies under huge pressure when there are technical faults. If you sit on a bus from de Lijn and it breaks down in the middle of nowhere, you aint gonna get 600€ compensation either

Seriously ... You're another one of these people who thinks they know something about aircraft because they are in it a few times a year and your Google Search function works really well and im sure your lively imagination helps as well. For the rest you come here with unfounded "information" and I have queried your sources several times and never got an answer. There is just one word for that ... sad
Last edited by sean1982 on 23 Feb 2015, 10:46, edited 1 time in total.

airazurxtror
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by airazurxtror »

Passenger wrote: Jetairfly will also reimburse additional costs, caused by the delay. These costs will be checked by Jetair's after sales department.
The Jetairfly after sales department is notorious for its reluctance to pay compensations - and if they eventually do, it's after much tergiversation, discussion and time - personal and other's experience.
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

I guess there will be two categories of passengers:

1. Those who have taken initiative to book hotel rooms for one, and then two nights, in the neighbourhood of the airport, who have kept their receipts for meals, taxis to/from their hotels, phone calls, etc. They will receive 600 euros plus reimbursement of all their justified costs.

2. Those who slept on the floor in the airport without food and drinks. They will get only 600 euros. I hope that at least they will have had the good idea to keep the receipts of their purchases of food and drinks (not evident if you insert your dollars in slot machines).

The difference between the two categories can represent huge amounts of money! And it is not up to the passenger to take the initiative, the airline should have arranged everything as soon as it became clear that the departure would be delayed by one, and later two days.

Jetairfly has acted better in the past: in December 2013 my flight to Lanzarote was diverted to Fuerteventura due to bad weather. After three hours on the ground, it became evident that it would not leave the same day (time limitation for the crew that had to fly back to Brussels afterwards). Thus Jetair arranged accommodation at Fuerteventura, transportation to the (very nice) hotels for 189 people, free meals and phone calls. No cash compensation (weather = force majeure), but good care!

Why could they do it in Fuerteventura, and not in Miami?
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Passenger »

airazurxtror wrote:
Passenger wrote: Jetairfly will also reimburse additional costs, caused by the delay. These costs will be checked by Jetair's after sales department.
The Jetairfly after sales department is notorious for its reluctance to pay compensations - and if they eventually do, it's after much tergiversation, discussion and time - personal and other's experience.
Although Jetairfly is outbeaten by the world's most wanted airline when it comes to unwillingless to pay compensation, you are right: mrs H, Jetair's head of legal department, isn't easy to deal with. But in this case, Jetair already has given the pax a declaration that they will pay the compensation and the hotel costs.

airazurxtror
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by airazurxtror »

Passenger wrote: Although Jetairfly is outbeaten by the world's most wanted airline when it comes to unwillingless to pay compensation, you are right: mrs H, Jetair's head of legal department, isn't easy to deal with. But in this case, Jetair already has given pas a declaration that they will pay the compensation and the hotel costs.
Promises given in order to to look nice on the TV news are to be taken with caution.
Personnally, if I had to claim a compensation from Jetairfly (unlikely, as I don't like their mentality and very rarely fly with them), I would go straight to a specialized site such as "Claim It" - would save me much time and worry.
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Passenger »

airazurxtror wrote:
Passenger wrote: Although Jetairfly is outbeaten by the world's most wanted airline when it comes to unwillingless to pay compensation, you are right: mrs H, Jetair's head of legal department, isn't easy to deal with. But in this case, Jetair already has given pas a declaration that they will pay the compensation and the hotel costs.
Promises given in order to to look nice on the TV news are to be taken with caution.
Personnally, if I had to claim a compensation from Jetairfly (unlikely, as I don't like their mentality and very rarely fly with them), I would go straight to a specialized site such as "Claim It" - would save me much time and worry.
Can you please remain at least a bit serious? It's not "a promise": it's a document on paper, thus with legal value. So in this particular case, it's useless for the passengers to give 20 or 30% commission to Claimit or EUClaim.

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Inquirer »

sn26567 wrote:I guess there will be two categories of passengers:

1. Those who have taken initiative to book hotel rooms for one, and then two nights, in the neighbourhood of the airport, who have kept their receipts for meals, taxis to/from their hotels, phone calls, etc. They will receive 600 euros plus reimbursement of all their justified costs.

2. Those who slept on the floor in the airport without food and drinks. They will get only 600 euros. I hope that at least they will have had the good idea to keep the receipts of their purchases of food and drinks (not evident if you insert your dollars in slot machines).

The difference between the two categories can represent huge amounts of money! And it is not up to the passenger to take the initiative, the airline should have arranged everything as soon as it became clear that the departure would be delayed by one, and later two days.
I fully agree with your analysis, André.

This is exactly what happens when the initiative to solve the problam (and pre-finance it) is shifted from the airline towards the individual passengers.

I remember there have been repeated discussions about exactly this aspect of customer service and protection rules in the past, as several airlines seem to favour this highly discriminatory method, despite it not being in accordance with the EU rules on this.

Things can go wrong, but if they do, the airline should assume it's full responsability right from the beginning, not through (partial) reimbursement via some claim form.

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:I guess there will be two categories of passengers:

1. Those who have taken initiative to book hotel rooms for one, and then two nights, in the neighbourhood of the airport, who have kept their receipts for meals, taxis to/from their hotels, phone calls, etc. They will receive 600 euros plus reimbursement of all their justified costs.

2. Those who slept on the floor in the airport without food and drinks. They will get only 600 euros. I hope that at least they will have had the good idea to keep the receipts of their purchases of food and drinks (not evident if you insert your dollars in slot machines).

The difference between the two categories can represent huge amounts of money! And it is not up to the passenger to take the initiative, the airline should have arranged everything as soon as it became clear that the departure would be delayed by one, and later two days.

Jetairfly has acted better in the past: in December 2013 my flight to Lanzarote was diverted to Fuerteventura due to bad weather. After three hours on the ground, it became evident that it would not leave the same day (time limitation for the crew that had to fly back to Brussels afterwards). Thus Jetair arranged accommodation at Fuerteventura, transportation to the (very nice) hotels for 189 people, free meals and phone calls. No cash compensation (weather = force majeure), but good care!

Why could they do it in Fuerteventura, and not in Miami?
Indeed andré, I have no clue why Jetair didn't arranged a hotel and meals for them. Once the crew told them that the aircraft was going to be grounded for the night, accommodation was unevitable, logical and more important: a legal obligation.

Hans Vanhalemeersch told the press that American law prohibited their rep to go to the gate and contact the passengers. Strange.

I can only guess what happened. Maybe the local handling agent switched off his/her smartphone after the initial check-in was done? Maybe the handling agent told Jetair that the group had split up and that they couldn't reach them. But then, Jetair could have contacted them via Twitter. Maybe someone from maintenance told them it was going to be just a matter of hours?

Apart from the moral damage, the indemnity (200 x 600 €) plus reimbursements now cost Jetair more then they would have paid in voluntury hotel costs. After all, let's not forget that the cause of the delay was an unforeseen technical failure that was not discovered during line maintenance. So contrary to claims from Claimit and EUClaim, Jetair could have called "extraordinary circumstances" to avoid the 600. But given their total handling failure, they couldn't do so anymore.

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

Statement just issued by the Management of Jetair (Dutch and French: English would be nice as well):

Image

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

In a comment on Facebook about this apology, I could read:

What about my 9 hour delay from Montego bay to Brussels on Dec 20 th 2014 ...I asked to be reimbursed EUR 600 through Lawyers and Jetairfly has not reacted at all ?
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Passenger »

sn26567 wrote:Statement just issued by the Management of Jetair (Dutch and French: English would be nice as well)
- we have encountered a technical failure on Friday evening

- parts had to be flown into Miami, repairs, and crew duty time caused a delay till Saturday 11h00 local

- additional problems (operational and paperworks) added a delay of 4 hours to that

- a special team was present in BRU this morning to apologize to each of the passengers

- each pax will get a 600 € compensation

- additional costs can be claimed from our after sales dept

- Jetairfly will investigate what went wrong

- we deny claims in the media that OO-JAP is unsafe (note from Passenger: these claims were made by incasso firm Claimit, who said on tv that OO-JAP had eleven long delays in the last three years)

- only official services are allowed to make such claims

- we apologize once again.

Signed Dirk Van Holsbeke, director

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

Thanks for he translation, Passenger. But I expected Jetair to also issue an apology in English, the international language of aviation (and passengers ;) ).
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by airazurxtror »

"parts had to be flown into Miami"

Flown from where ?
You can't find parts for a Boeing 767 in Miami ?
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

OO-JAP departed again to Miami as JAF121 this morning, with a delay of 3 and a half hours due to late arrival of incoming flight...
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

Jetairfly TB2173 has returned to Brussels after a turnaround en route to Tenerife. http://www.rb24.com/JAF4MP
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote: I thought we were talking here about airlines trying to avoid the legal compensation in case of a delay. A better example would be that hit-and-run accident from a low cost airliner in Barcelona few years ago, who hit another airliner on the taxiway but continued the journey, ignoring remarks from several paqssengers, probably afraid of loosing too much time.
Dont talk about things you dont know. Nothing was noticed by neither crew or pax on both aircraft untill after the aircraft landed in IBZ ... And yes, I studied the official investigation. NO SINGLE CREW of any airline is going to fly with known damage to aircraft. Mistakes where made yes, but to call it "a hit and run" is outrageous. The only thing these compensation rules (and nitwits) are doing is to put companies under huge pressure when there are technical faults. If you sit on a bus from de Lijn and it breaks down in the middle of nowhere, you aint gonna get 600€ compensation either

Seriously ... You're another one of these people who thinks they know something about aircraft because they are in it a few times a year and your Google Search function works really well and im sure your lively imagination helps as well. For the rest you come here with unfounded "information" and I have queried your sources several times and never got an answer. There is just one word for that ... sad
I don't know what you mean by "official investigation". If that's the Ryanair report, I'm quite sure that it cleared the Ryanair crew. But the official Spanish report didn’t. Title of the report on The Aviation Herald is clear enough: “Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints”.

But then, I was wrong indeed. The Ryanair 737 didn’t stop and returned to the gate (or apron) to avoid loosing time, as I thought (happened few years ago, hence my memory blackout). They didn’t return to the gate (or apron) because the cabin crew, well aware of the hit, was unable to tell the cockpit crew what happened:

http://avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

from the official Spanish report (translation AvHerald): “The deficiencies in the communications between the cabin and flight crews on the B737 resulted in the collision going unnoticed and in both aircraft continuing with their flights without an assessment of the damage produced…”

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sn26567 »

Ryanair flight FR2829 from Reus (Spain) to Charleroi was caught in strong turbulence last night and diverted to Bordeaux. Two hostesses were injured and hospitalized in Bordeaux.

The plane took off from Reus, Spain, and was scheduled to arrive at Charleroi at 21:30. But over the Pyrenees, the flight "was rocked by large, heavy turbulences," said a spokesman for Bordeaux airport.

Caught in a big air pocket, the plane was badly shaken and two hostesses were injured. One suffering from "back edge" and the other a broken ankle. The latter was wounded by a drinks trolley that struck her. They have both been hospitalized in a Bordeaux hospital.

On the passenger side, many have also been very shaken but there are no injuries. After waiting for several hours at Bordeaux airport, they were able to return to Charleroi via another Ryanair flight that came from Barcelona and was able to take them in charge. They took off from Bordeaux-Merignac at 01:24.

This morning around 10:00, Ryanair confirmed in turn the incident. Explaining that after having suffered "some turbulence," the plane was able to land normally.

"The medical staff took over two crew cabin with minor injuries", says the company. "A replacement aircraft and a rescue crew were sent from Barcelona to minimize the delay for customers, who received good refreshments in Bordeaux. Ryanair apologizes to all customers affected by this diversion and the delay incurred. "

After L'Avenir
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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by airazurxtror »

I don't know if the "fasten seat-belt" sign was on. As no passenger was hurt, it seems that it was.
But I have often seen the Ryanair cabin crew working as usual with the trolleys in the aisle whilst that sign is on.

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
sean1982 wrote:
Passenger wrote: I thought we were talking here about airlines trying to avoid the legal compensation in case of a delay. A better example would be that hit-and-run accident from a low cost airliner in Barcelona few years ago, who hit another airliner on the taxiway but continued the journey, ignoring remarks from several paqssengers, probably afraid of loosing too much time.
Dont talk about things you dont know. Nothing was noticed by neither crew or pax on both aircraft untill after the aircraft landed in IBZ ... And yes, I studied the official investigation. NO SINGLE CREW of any airline is going to fly with known damage to aircraft. Mistakes where made yes, but to call it "a hit and run" is outrageous. The only thing these compensation rules (and nitwits) are doing is to put companies under huge pressure when there are technical faults. If you sit on a bus from de Lijn and it breaks down in the middle of nowhere, you aint gonna get 600€ compensation either

Seriously ... You're another one of these people who thinks they know something about aircraft because they are in it a few times a year and your Google Search function works really well and im sure your lively imagination helps as well. For the rest you come here with unfounded "information" and I have queried your sources several times and never got an answer. There is just one word for that ... sad
I don't know what you mean by "official investigation". If that's the Ryanair report, I'm quite sure that it cleared the Ryanair crew. But the official Spanish report didn’t. Title of the report on The Aviation Herald is clear enough: “Ryanair B738 and American B763 at Barcelona on Apr 14th 2011, both aircraft departed despite ground collision and passenger complaints”.

But then, I was wrong indeed. The Ryanair 737 didn’t stop and returned to the gate (or apron) to avoid loosing time, as I thought (happened few years ago, hence my memory blackout). They didn’t return to the gate (or apron) because the cabin crew, well aware of the hit, was unable to tell the cockpit crew what happened:

http://avherald.com/h?article=45363621&opt=0

from the official Spanish report (translation AvHerald): “The deficiencies in the communications between the cabin and flight crews on the B737 resulted in the collision going unnoticed and in both aircraft continuing with their flights without an assessment of the damage produced…”
No I'm not talking about a Ryanair report (what the hell would that be anyway?) and yes it was acknowledged that mistakes were made ... but no did they not depart with known damage to own or other aircraft! And just to put things into perspective .. I've had passengers reporting "the wing was falling apart" when the speedbrakes came up for a periode of time to lose some speed. Yes, passenger reports are important, but still need to be assessed. But then again ... I won't lose my breath an a biased SN fanboy
Last edited by sean1982 on 26 Feb 2015, 13:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Abnormalities in BRU-ANR-CRL-LGG-OST in 2015

Post by sean1982 »

airazurxtror wrote:I don't know if the "fasten seat-belt" sign was on. As no passenger was hurt, it seems that it was.
But I have often seen the Ryanair cabin crew working as usual with the trolleys in the aisle whilst that sign is on.
When turbulence is experienced the fasten seatbelt sign will be switched on quite quickly. When the flightcrew expects the turbulence to be bad enough that it could interfere with cabin crew duties a command over the PA will be given for the cabin crew to strap in. Unfortunatly turbulence can be sudden and unexpected when it is clear air turbulence, therefore these incidents are very difficult to avoid.

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