BRU Summer 2015: latest news, routes, airlines

[brusselsairlinesfan]

Regarding the long awaited BRU-TYO route... why not SN with their own metal and NH putting their code?

[sn26567]

Regarding the long awaited BRU-TYO route... why not SN with their own metal and NH putting their code?

... like in the good old Sabena days!

[asianlao02]

Regarding the long awaited BRU-TYO route... why not SN with their own metal and NH putting their code?

... like in the good old Sabena days!

Indeed it´s the best solution but they haven't enough plane and they don't want to take the risk.
I talk a lot with my uncle ( who works for lao airlines in vientiane and my japanese-laotian friend who works for lao too ) about future asian carriers at bru. My uncle lived in belgium in the past with us. He is not optimist for us he has his own source

[sn26567]

By the way, welcome to Luchtzak, asianlao02 !

[asianlao02]

By the way, welcome to Luchtzak, asianlao02 !

Hey thanks

[SN501]

Regarding the long awaited BRU-TYO route... why not SN with their own metal and NH putting their code?

Hello,

It would be great, but I'm affraid this route doesn't fit with the SN schedule long haul flights.

The 7 daily lh flights take off between 10:15 and 15:00 and they're back in BRU between 5:00 and 8:00. Based on this schedule, the short haul flights schedule is built.

If SN fly on the BRU-TYO route, the aircraft couldn't do the BRU-TYO-BRU rotation neither in the current schedule nor in less than 24 hours.

If you look on FR24 at the BRU-PEK and the BRU-BKK rotation, you can see that they require simultaneously two aircrafts.

Strategic routes such as TYO or SFO to feed BRU should be rather operated by ANA and United with SN code in my opinion.

Have a good day!

[sn26567]

Thanks for your first contribution, SN501, and welcome to Luchtzak!

[convair]

If you look on FR24 at the BRU-PEK and the BRU-BKK rotation, you can see that they require simultaneously two aircrafts.

Not necessarily. You can't do it with one aircraft but with 2 aircraft you can alternate TYO with a shorter lh route such as Dakar eg provided the 2 flights leave BRU with a time difference of 3 or 4 hours.
Moreover, SN could start TYO on a lower frequency.

[CRJ 900]

Hi,
Yesterday heard from a fellow passenger on ZRH to BRU flight, that SN would drop the BRU - BSL route, leaving it to Easyjet.
Anyone more info? Is this correct? Just booked BRU -BSl in June. Would be a pity to see another *A partner disappear at BSL after the earlier withdrawal from LX. Hope it is just a rumor.
Rgds,
CRJ 900

[Flanker2]

@SN26657, wouldn't it be great if we could bring the conversation of NH/TYO in a separate thread, so we can follow it up separetely. I posted a few days ago in the civil aviation topic SN/ASIA? about this very subject, without knowing about the ongoing discussion here.

Hello,

It would be great, but I'm affraid this route doesn't fit with the SN schedule long haul flights.

The 7 daily lh flights take off between 10:15 and 15:00 and they're back in BRU between 5:00 and 8:00. Based on this schedule, the short haul flights schedule is built.

If SN fly on the BRU-TYO route, the aircraft couldn't do the BRU-TYO-BRU rotation neither in the current schedule nor in less than 24 hours.

If you look on FR24 at the BRU-PEK and the BRU-BKK rotation, you can see that they require simultaneously two aircrafts.

Strategic routes such as TYO or SFO to feed BRU should be rather operated by ANA and United with SN code in my opinion.

Have a good day!

Well there are ways around that problem.

A plausible schedule could be for instance
1. BRU 09:00 HND 04:00
2. HND 06:00 BRU 11:00
3. BRU 13:00 AFI --:--
4. AFI --:-- BRU 05:00
1. BRU 09:00 HND 04:00
etc...

This way you can combine a Japan return with a late AFI departure the next day and maximise aircraft utilisation.
But you would need a 230 ton A332 for this kind of range and payload would be limited to less than 30 tons, which gives a bit of room for cargo but not much, considering that 2 pieces of checked luggage are standard for the Japanese market. About 5 to 10 tons of cargo should be possible though.

Notwithstanding whether Sabena's operation was profitable, given today's yields on this market, especially ex-Japan, it will easily be profitable, even more so if combined with Africa. Tickets originating in Japan to BRU cost about 1000 euro's return for Y, with a connection.
In addition, SN's extensive European feeding network would benefit greatly from such a route.

I think that it's great that Michel realises the value of this connection for the Belgian economy and that SN and BRU are also pushing for it.
IF the flight is established, I would definitely use it.

However, I'm becoming skeptical that NH would start the service. They are obsessed by transpac routes lately and are now busy finalising the take-over of Skymark.
I personally prefer JL for their better services and product, ie 8 abreast B787 iso 9 abreast, so I'm rooting for NH to say no a last time, so that Michel and SN can start courting JL and work together on a codeshare.
I think that if Michel approaches PM Abe and JL, the route will be put in place in no time.

[Passenger]

@SN26657, wouldn't it be great if we could bring the conversation of NH/TYO in a separate thread, so we can follow it up separetely. I posted a few days ago in the civil aviation topic SN/ASIA? about this very subject, without knowing about the ongoing discussion here.

This "Brussels Airlines really really must fly to Japan" is just like the annual flu for some. Every now and then, some blame Brussels Airlines they don't fly to every single world city. So yes, let's keep this "discussion" into one topic.

example: "Why doens't SN fly to Asia?" - February 2014:
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?t=52316

or in this topic from 2013: "NRT-BRU-NRT gap":
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51830

or in this topic from 2010: "Flyertalk reports NRT-BRU starting in 2011?"
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=41740

but then, this discussion started already in 2004: "SNBA looks for partners in Asia":
https://www.aviation24.be/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6134

[KriVa]

Without going into any detail... I can say the discussion might be rather relevant for 2015 or 2016.
If anything, the topics you mentioned show the discussion is actually pretty much alive. Even though this is, admittedly, an "avgeek" forum mostly, the fact that the discussion is so much alive, and has been for a number of years, may show that there's at least some interest for the route.

[asianlao02]

Nobody want hkg with hong kong airlines ? A few years ago they talked about it
I flew TG twice in november 2014 and january 2015. Bru-bkk-vte.
In november, we were almost 100pax and more or less the same in january.... The 773er is too much capacity for bru. Don't know how much cargo they carry on each flight.

[Established02]

Yesterday heard from a fellow passenger on ZRH to BRU flight, that SN would drop the BRU - BSL route, leaving it to Easyjet. ... Is this correct?

This is not correct. There are no indications that SN will drop BSL.

[CRJ 900]

Thx. Established02.
Good to hear they continue BSL.
Rgds,
CRJ 900

[Conti764]

@SN26657, wouldn't it be great if we could bring the conversation of NH/TYO in a separate thread, so we can follow it up separetely. I posted a few days ago in the civil aviation topic SN/ASIA? about this very subject, without knowing about the ongoing discussion here.

Hello,

It would be great, but I'm affraid this route doesn't fit with the SN schedule long haul flights.

The 7 daily lh flights take off between 10:15 and 15:00 and they're back in BRU between 5:00 and 8:00. Based on this schedule, the short haul flights schedule is built.

If SN fly on the BRU-TYO route, the aircraft couldn't do the BRU-TYO-BRU rotation neither in the current schedule nor in less than 24 hours.

If you look on FR24 at the BRU-PEK and the BRU-BKK rotation, you can see that they require simultaneously two aircrafts.

Strategic routes such as TYO or SFO to feed BRU should be rather operated by ANA and United with SN code in my opinion.

Have a good day!

Well there are ways around that problem.

A plausible schedule could be for instance
1. BRU 09:00 HND 04:00
2. HND 06:00 BRU 11:00
3. BRU 13:00 AFI --:--
4. AFI --:-- BRU 05:00
1. BRU 09:00 HND 04:00
etc...

This way you can combine a Japan return with a late AFI departure the next day and maximise aircraft utilisation.
But you would need a 230 ton A332 for this kind of range and payload would be limited to less than 30 tons, which gives a bit of room for cargo but not much, considering that 2 pieces of checked luggage are standard for the Japanese market. About 5 to 10 tons of cargo should be possible though.

Notwithstanding whether Sabena's operation was profitable, given today's yields on this market, especially ex-Japan, it will easily be profitable, even more so if combined with Africa. Tickets originating in Japan to BRU cost about 1000 euro's return for Y, with a connection.
In addition, SN's extensive European feeding network would benefit greatly from such a route.

I think that it's great that Michel realises the value of this connection for the Belgian economy and that SN and BRU are also pushing for it.
IF the flight is established, I would definitely use it.

However, I'm becoming skeptical that NH would start the service. They are obsessed by transpac routes lately and are now busy finalising the take-over of Skymark.
I personally prefer JL for their better services and product, ie 8 abreast B787 iso 9 abreast, so I'm rooting for NH to say no a last time, so that Michel and SN can start courting JL and work together on a codeshare.
I think that if Michel approaches PM Abe and JL, the route will be put in place in no time.

JAL doesn't fit in the *A hub theory both BRU and SN seem to follow...

With the schedule you propose, I'd say give it a go. SN now has less to lose then a few years ago...

[Passenger]

Notwithstanding whether Sabena's operation was profitable, given today's yields on this market, especially ex-Japan, it will easily be profitable, even more so if combined with Africa. Tickets originating in Japan to BRU cost about 1000 euro's return for Y, with a connection. In addition, SN's extensive European feeding network would benefit greatly from such a route.

Maybe Google gave you that fare of 1.000 Euro? I've checked ticket sellers like Connections, Joker and the Belgian Japan specialists : a normal fare for a Brussels-Tokyo-Brussels is 550-650 €, with a cheap around 500-550 and an expensive around 1.000. Aeroflot and Türkish are going well under 500.

Brussels Airlines could sell at 600 € for a nonstop (KLM is selling its nonstop at 600, except high season). But for t/o contracts and allotments, I guess we're talking of 450-475 nett nett.

Oeps: there goes the business plan...

[sn26567]

@Passenger, flanker2 was mentioning the price for flights originating in Japan. The Japanese have traditionally a higher purchasing power that justifies higher fares.

But even so I find a price of 344€ for HND-BRU-HND with Qatar via Doha (and 393€ from NRT with Etihad via AUH) !

[Flanker2]

(This is a rather long post, so if you're not interested in the subject, I suggest to move on).

But even so I find a price of 344€ for HND-BRU-HND with Qatar via Doha (and 393€ from NRT with Etihad via AUH) !

I can give you some interesting insight on this.
I've flown these sectors very heavily in the past months (2 return trips this month alone) and I've noticed something rather interesting.

While on the JL and AZ flights via CDG, LHR, HEL or FCO, MXP respectively around 80% to 90% of pax in both J and Y were Japanese, on the TK flights via IST only 30% to 40% were Japanese.

I think that the ME4 are having tough times selling their products in Japan and even more so the long detour via their decentered hubs. In fact, this geographic disadvantage allow JL and NH to be relatively immune from the ME4 effect and to maintain strong profits on their European network.

For the more cultural insight, IMO Japanese are very weary of Middle-Eastern carriers and truly have a preference for their domestic airlines.
Japanese worry a lot about safety and whether you like it or not, the Middle-East despite all the superficials that petrol money can buy, still have a thirld world safety reputation in Japan. The highly mediatised world cup stadium deaths in Qatar (reaching towards 1000 now) only come to confirm such assumptions.

So my advice is to try a search on the JL and NH website with country set to Japan/English. Your eyeballs will drop on your desk at the high fares they can afford to charge.

Also, a direct flight would always target the O&D market rather than the connecting market, so we have very different markets and fares there. The connecting market will always be cheaper and any airline that would fly the direct BRU-TYO route would certainly also have to forfeit the lower end of the market to 1-stop routings at much lower cost, but BRU-TYO has sufficient O&D high yield demand and sufficient immunity from the ME4 competition to operate with very decent margins, IMO.

If SN would fly it on own metal, the question will be whether they will succeed in selling their product in Japan and how long it would take. They will certainly have no problems selling their West African network there in no time, but that isn't enough to fill an A332. Corporate contracts on both ends of the route will be of paramount importance, but they also need to be able to attract the higher net worth leisure/SME business flyers as this could be the difference between good profits and big profits.
JL or NH would have a clear starting advantage from that perspective as it's their home market.


Regarding NH or JL.
Well, NH has everything going for this route, but they're still not operating it. They have their reasons for it.
NH has sat and watched for many years how US carriers have dominated the Transpac routes and made tons of money in their own backyard. Their obsession is now fixated on that and it's a strategy that is working relatively well, with healthy profits on their new B787 routes.
Moreover, NH has 2 daily FRA flights and a daily MUC flight, which need feeding from cities including BRU.
FRA and MUC aren't really major O&D routes from Japan, so they essentially use them as their European hub. So they have little incentive to cover BRU directly. Personally I think that they would be better off closing down one of the 3 routes from FRA/MUC and reassigning a B787 to BRU.

JL is copying what NH is doing on Transpac. But JL has no shame in pursuing partnerships outside OW if it suits them. The relatively sparse OW Alliance also kind of forces them to do so.
In fact, this is reflected by JL's long-standing partnership with AF in CDG. The access to ZYR-CDG train capacity is a fruit of that cooperation.
But unlike NH at FRA, JL doesn't need pax from Belgium to fill their CDG and LHR flights as the O&D demand is very healthy and very creamy there. In fact, this is why they are forcing most pax to connect through HEL to NRT or KIX, which are flights that aren't doing well IMO. The LF are very low except in the high season.
IMO HEL is a bad place to connect on your way to Japan and vice-versa, from a pax perspective, for a premium airline. JL often sell Ex-Europa routes at over 700 Euro's return via HEL, when BA offers the option to fly for less than 600 and connect more conveniently.
Another issue IMO is the lack of service continuity for FFP members between JL and AY and HEL's overcrowded lounge facilities during the Asian rush hours, which just add to the discomfort.
IMO KIX-HEL is a waste of a B787, and they would be better off reassigning it for a BRU-HND flight.

IMO both NH and JL need to stop neglecting their European networks and realise that they need to strengthen their O&D network in Europe instead of operating semi-convenient hubs at FRA, MUC and HEL. This is what would put them ahead of other carriers when it comes to choosing between them and the many other European carriers.



For Belgium, this connection is very important if they want to keep a strong argument for Japanse corporations to stay in Belgium, amid the ongoing exodus of foreign investment.
Japanese corporations have so far loyally kept and expanded their activities in Belgium. A direct flight to Japan would be a great argument to keep the status-quo or even attract more such companies.
The impact on the job market is very positive as they offer jobs of better quality and higher pay.
One such example is found in the following article, highlighting the recent investments of 3 major Japanese companies in the port of Antwerp.

May 12th 2015
http://www.flanderstoday.eu/business/ja ... rt-antwerp

The Japanese chemical company Nippon Shokubai (NS) plans to invest €350 million in its facilities in the port of Antwerp, Flemish minister-president Geert Bourgeois has announced.

NS makes super-absorbent polymers (SAPs), used in such goods as disposable nappies and sanitary products. The Antwerp plant has a capacity of 60,000 tonnes a year, which NS intends to expand to 160,000 tonnes. The Japanese company also intends to begin producing acrylic acid, the raw material for SAPs.

The government said the new production facility would commit NS to taking part in the continuing expansion of the industrial and logistical infrastructure of the left bank. NS’s European headquarters are in Zwijndrecht, where it employs 95 people.

The NS decision is the third such announcement this year: In February, chemicals company Kuraray said it would increase its capacity for producing EVAL, an insulating polymer used in the packaging and auto industries. Also in February, ITC Rubis Terminal said it would extend its tanker terminal specialising in gas and chemicals.

“The investment by Nippon Shobukai is a boost for the port of Antwerp and for Flanders,” Bourgeois said. “The strengthening of the industrial fabric by the chemicals cluster in the port is an important condition of being able to attract major investments. This investment of €350 million will also see the creation of dozens of new jobs.”

Flanders Investment & Trade director Claire Tillekaerts said that “the Flemish sometimes wonder if they still have an industrial future. The Japanese business world has given them a clear answer: from Maasmechelen to Ostend, we find many Japanese investments in manufacturing. They are increasing, and they are in it for the long term.”

[MrG4]

Vueling will fly from/to BRU with one of his new A321
Barcelona – Brussels eff 03JUL15 1 weekly (until 31JUL15)