Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

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Flanker2
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 23:55

Also I've seen a video where one of the rebels searching the area carried off one of the recorders. So their claim that they have them is valid if you ask me.
The Reuters footage shows a local rescue worker pulling out the FDR. This is not a rebel.

The rebels are the armed separatist militia who have declared independence of the Donetsk province from Ukraine and are seeking attachment to Russia, in the same way as Crimea did with Russian support. Many locals seem to have supported the local referendum and actually prefer to be part of Russia rather than Ukraine, even though the West claims that it was all fabricated.

The newly elected government of Ukraine doesn't want to recognise this declaration the same way it refutes the Crimea attachment to Russia and have been fighting the militia, trying to force the province to stay part of Ukraine.

Russia hadn't responded to the request yet and were seeking dialogue.
Groups of local Ukrainian troops have decided to join the Donetsk militia rather than withdraw from the area.

http://wtfrly.com/2014/05/21/ukrainian- ... 8wzPvkZPLo

Let's be honest with ourselves, the Kiev revolution was stupid. Kiev people did what was probably right for Kiev itself, but haven't asked the rest of the people's opinion.
The new government has little support from their military, who were under command of a pro-Russian leaders just months ago. Over 5000 Ukrainian troops defected to Crimea/Russia.

I think that Russia was intending to send troops into the Donetsk province, but this incident may have been created to avoid that. From a Ukrainian perspective, the death of 300 non-nationals would be a cheap price to pay if they could keep the Donetsk province, which is quite important to the Ukrainian economy.

The Kiev people are hoping that the EU would accept Ukraine into it, but the EU can't afford it as Ukraine's entire industry is oriented towards Russia. A great example: Antonov.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 23:57

The point of view of Antonov:
03-07-2014 / Open letter of test pilots to the President of Ukraine


Attn: Petro Poroshenko,

The President of Ukraine



Dear Mr. President,



We address ourselves to you on behalf of test pilots. Destiny gave us the opportunity to feel happiness from the first flight of a new aircraft. Together with winged vehicles we rose from the first take−off flights and further complicated tests to performance of various tasks on these aircraft that were not possible to be performed by other man−made birds. Of course, not every time everything went off successfully. We faced with difficulties and even losses, but didn’t stop and kept on going to the set goal, because behind us there was work of many people, who put their deep knowledge, efforts, souls and hopes into these creations.

We are talking about the ANTONOV aircraft, carrying fame of our country throughout the whole world. Today we are proud, but disappointed, because again someone, to our regret, wants to sacrifice work of our lives to one’s own interests. It is very difficult to see our state government to be so indifferent to the collective of the ANTONOV Company, the leader of native aircraft industry. Why do one’s interests value more than experience, professionalism and honesty? Why is Dmytro Kiva, the real Hero of Ukraine, head of our enterprise, dismissed with one scratch of a pen, with one line of the order, without any investigation or trial?

For many years we have been working together and we know that he honestly deserved all the awards and ranks, fighting for the ANTONOV Company. During the independence of Ukraine the enterprise wasn’t only once to be defended from everyone who wanted to line one's pockets from the enterprise’s airline, its territory, recreation centers, etc. The ANTONOV Company still rises and develops and Dmytro Kiva has made a lot to achieve this. Owing to ANTONOV, Ukraine is provided with working places at 34 partner companies, millions flows into the budget, image of the country possessing high technologies, reliable partner in aviation field and integrator of a number of countries’ efforts in joint aviation projects realizations, training of creative, technically educated youth.

Dear Petr Oleksiiovych, we kindly ask for your help in providing further continuous work of the ANTONOV Company, prohibition of further pursuit of Dmytro Kiva, his reappointment as the head of the ANTONOV State Aircraft Building Concern. Future of our country is in your hands and we are sure that Ukraine has to keep its place among the leading aviation states of the world.



Sincerely yours,



Leonid Kadeniuk,

Hero of Ukraine, honored test pilot, space pilot



Oleksandr Galunenko,

Hero of Ukraine, honored test pilot of Soviet Union



Sergii Troshyn,

Hero of Ukraine, test pilot



Jurii Kurlin,

Hero of Soviet Union, honored test pilot of Soviet Union



Valerii Migunov,

Hero of Soviet Union, honored test pilot of Soviet Union
http://www.antonov.com/news/318

RTM
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by RTM » 21 Jul 2014, 00:19

Flanker2 wrote:Let's be honest with ourselves, the Kiev revolution was stupid. Kiev people did what was probably right for Kiev itself, but haven't asked the rest of the people's opinion.
The new government has little support from their military, who were under command of a pro-Russian leaders just months ago. Over 5000 Ukrainian troops defected to Crimea/Russia.

I think that Russia was intending to send troops into the Donetsk province, but this incident may have been created to avoid that. From a Ukrainian perspective, the death of 300 non-nationals would be a cheap price to pay if they could keep the Donetsk province, which is quite important to the Ukrainian economy.

The Kiev people are hoping that the EU would accept Ukraine into it, but the EU can't afford it as Ukraine's entire industry is oriented towards Russia. A great example: Antonov.
Please Flanker... your disrespect is sickening.
Feel free to post your usual BS in all other topics, but show respect in this one.
Your lecture in Ukranian politics is completely out of place, and actually irrelevant, and thereby completely off topic. So please don't.

You have a wild immagination, and contraversial theories can be fun, but not this time. It IS quite clear what has happened, so lets stick to that. Pointing the finger at other party's that have no blame, that did not pill the trigger and murdered nearly 300 people. In this stage, that is completely and utterly disrespectfull to those who died. It makes me sick.

Should in the end it turn out that you are right, I will appologize, but in the mean time please drop the attitude for once, at least in this case.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by RTM » 21 Jul 2014, 00:25

Flanker2 wrote:The Reuters footage shows a local rescue worker pulling out the FDR. This is not a rebel.
A rescue worker, fair enough. My bad.
But to me it more looks like the CVR. Difficult to see, but the proportions and the shape look more like a CVR. If the FDR still was a analog one, the shape would be similar, I have to agree, but a solid state DFDR looks different, and are very common these days. However, since they claim to have both, it doesn't really matter wich one this actually is.

crlhub

Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by crlhub » 21 Jul 2014, 01:02

The Bizarre MH17 Shootdown, Radar Cloaking and Northwoods - It Happens
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ff6_1405 ... DbSXxRG.99


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=583_1405855017

Cui bono?

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Squelsh » 21 Jul 2014, 02:05

Even though I have alot of respect for Alex Jones and his infowars crew, fact remains that he always claims that major events like this are a false flag. Breivik, boston bombing, Sandy Hook etc.. Heck, he even claims the top UN are all pedophile freaks. Sadly not a very credible news source anymore.

But kudos for loose change 9/11, Invisible empire, fabled enemies, and of course 'dark secrets in the bohemian grove', all must-sees from back when he wasn't selling that much cool-aid and sensation.

About this tragedy, MHO, on the highest levels of the geopoloticial game, symbolism is always of great importance. After this incident, I am almost 99% sure of the conspiracy claim that MH370 was shot down, there where I honestly believed it sank to the bottom of the sea.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 21 Jul 2014, 07:42

I can't help but notice that Putin is being the big man in this mess.
http://rt.com/news/174268-ukraine-mh17-crash-putin/

It just shows how he is in control of himself and his deeds, as opposed to the Western puppets who claim to be our leaders and display no class or decency. In my eyes, Obama and several EU nations have lost credibility in this accident, which is a shame because I used to be a fan of Obama. The only person that is displaying self-control and class in the EU seems to be Merkel, who has take a neutral stance and is trying to mediate the conversation.

Pointing fingers won't bring dead people back, in fact it will only intensify the conflict in the region which was the reason for this crash in the first place.

In my opinion, the people killed should be honoured by all parties involved with a cease-fire and lasting peace, because at least then their death would have meaning.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Established02 » 21 Jul 2014, 09:59

Flanker2 wrote:I can't help but notice that Putin is being the big man in this mess.
RT will make Putin a big man at every possible occasion, because RT is simply a propaganda tool of the political powers in Russia and Putin is their super duper hero mascot.

Flanker2, please let me know when RT is being critical about any type of mess that is going on in Russian society itself. RT is specialised in pointing out the many specks in the eyes of Western nations, while ignoring the logs in the eyes of Russian (political) society.

I've followed RT for a few years, but I've unsubbed myself a while ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

"RT cost $30 million to establish in 2005 and $30 million for its first year of operation. About half of the network's budget came from the state and the other half from banks and companies friendly to the government. Its budget in dollars was approximately $80 million in 2007, $120 million in 2008, $380 million in 2011 and $300 million in 2012. Putin has prohibited funding for Russia Today from being reduced as of October 30, 2012."

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 10:55

Back to topic. A nice gesture from an airline which is certainly at the verge of bankruptcy now: Malaysia Airlines has offered any passenger booked on one of its flights this year the option of a full refund.

But...

As far as we (i.e. FR24) have seen, MH4 is the only transcontinental flight going over Syria (picture taken yesterday). Asking for trouble?

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 11:10

A possible sequence of events that has to be confirmed by the investigators, if they are allowed full access to the Eastern part of the country.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 11:31

The article in this link shows how US satellites could pinpoint the site from where the SA-11 Buk missile was fired at MH17.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014 ... -airliner/
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by regi » 21 Jul 2014, 13:03

I take some distance for the time being and come back to aviation:

Does any member here has a sustained estimation what the impact of this disaster will be on aviation?

Easy answer is that the airliners make now a detour, so more miles.
But will they apply that to other hot zones as well? On which basis? ( what kind of equipment, what kind of conflict ? )

Example of magnitude of problem: I made a 45 minute detour in 1990 around a country without capabilities to take down a high flying airliner. Explanation by Air France: " We are allowed by that nation to overfly. Large areas are under rebel control. Imagine we would have a technical reason to make an emergency landing, in rebel held territory. We rather make the extra miles than take that small risk"

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 13:56

As goodwill, to ease the immediate families of the passengers with their economic needs, Malaysia Airlines is offering a financial assistance of USD5,000 to the families of each passenger. Funds have already been made available for this purpose. Citibank has supported Malaysia Airlines with the logistical arrangements for the fund transfer. This financial assistance will not be offset against the final compensation nor affect the families’ legal rights to claim.
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 21 Jul 2014, 17:19

Established02, I'm not saying that Russian media isn't corrupt.
You could say about the same about Fox News or CNN, which are also strongly influenced by the U.S. parties, one by the Republicans, the other by the Democrats.

I'm saying to keep an open mind about this instead of accusing A or B.

The Russians are asking the exact same questions I've been asking and I guess that they are fair.
Why wouldn' it be conceivable that the Ukrainians downed MH17, either intentionally or by accident.
Could the separatist be victims of a set-up?

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 17:35

It appears that the control tower at Donetsk Airport has been hit today by militants (from which side?):

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 17:53

sn26567 wrote:As far as we (i.e. FR24) have seen, MH4 is the only transcontinental flight going over Syria (picture taken yesterday). Asking for trouble?
The answer of Malaysia Airlines:

Monday, July 21, 10:05 PM GMT +0800 Media Statement 10 : MH17 Incident
This statement is to clarify the misunderstanding caused by a tweet from Flightradar24 on Malaysia Airlines’ flight MH004 from Kuala Lumpur to London that flew over Syrian airspace on 20 July 2014 at 1:20pm local time.

MH004’s flight plan is in accordance to International Civil Aviation Organisation’s (ICAO) approved routes. As per the notice to airmen (NOTAM) issued by the Syrian Civil Aviation Authority, the Syrian airspace was not subject to restrictions.

At all times, MH004 was in airspace approved by ICAO.

Malaysia Airlines maintains that safety of its passengers and crew is of utmost priority.

-end-
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 18:14

Yes, indeed the Russian government today presented "evidence" that MH17 had been shot down by what they believe was a Ukrainian fighter jet and that Buk batteries were moved by the Ukrainian army to Eastern Ukraine days or hours before the fatal crash.

Hence my questions:

1. Was that fighter jet identified with 100% certainty? There were other airliners in the vicinity of MH17: a Singapore 777 and an Air India 787.

2. Is it possible for the regular army to move such heavy equipment unnoticed in an area controlled by rebels?

The "Propaganda Abteilung" from both super-powers seems to be working full speed!
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 21 Jul 2014, 18:25

The Ukraine train carrying bodies from MH17 plane crash leaves the station of Torez, destination unknown, although it is probably Kharkiv.

The Prime Minister of Malaysia Najib Razak says that the MH17 black boxes are to be handed over to a Malaysian delegation at 9 p.m. tonight.
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 21 Jul 2014, 18:46

Breaking news:
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak says the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 black boxes will be handed over to the Malaysians in Donetsk at 9pm Ukrainian time. The bodies of 282 victims of the crash are to be flown to Amsterdam.
http://rt.com/news/174448-malaysian-pm-mh17-statement/

So I guess that the train is being taken to a location nearby an airport from where it will be loaded on a Russian transport and flown to Amsterdam. I think that the rebels will not allow the bodies into Ukrainian hands, as they may tamper with them to create evidence, instead of returning them to their families.

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