Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

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sn26567
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 19 Jul 2014, 09:48

crlhub wrote:TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

etc.
Self-defense forces? I would call them terrorists, dissidents, or whatever, but certainly not self-defense forces. They were the ones who initiated the conflict. And it was reported in June that they had taken a Buk battery from the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Eastern Ukraine.

Anyway, why would the Ukrainian Army use Buk missiles when the dissidents do not have any aircraft?
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by air belgium » 19 Jul 2014, 09:51

@André : so true!

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by tsv » 19 Jul 2014, 11:04

sn26567 wrote:
Anyway, why would the Ukrainian Army use Buk missiles when the dissidents do not have any aircraft?
Well I can think of one reason, a couple of days before the crash there were reports that a Russian Aircraft entered Ukrainian Air Space and shot down a SU-25. If their Missile Crews weren't on high alert before that incident they sure as hell would have been afterwards!

But even if the report about the Russian Aircraft was false I think it is safe to say the Russians, Separatists and Ukrainian Units are all on very high alert and that is when these type of incidents tend to happen. An example is when the US Navy mistakenly shot down an Iranian Airliner in 1998 thinking it was a Fighter Jet.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by regi » 19 Jul 2014, 13:31

It is difficult to stay on track and avoid tit for tat discussions (where everybody is right, depending from their view point )
What is astonishing is the one sided media coverage.
I did at least an effort to look for other side coverage, and sorry , but what you read at the other side is... another story. I won't go into detail, it is up to you to decide if you want to spend 5 minutes to read those reports.
We oversee 1 particular point regarding that demand for an independant investigation: that should also investigate the influence of foreigners who reorganised the Ukrainian forces. ( I refer here to the embarrasing discovery of dead US military during the Georgia conflict ) Simply said: if the USA had not reorganised the Ukrainian forces, there would have been a rather peaceful stalemate and no 1000 deaths + this crash.
Politically speaking, we have no clue what happens in Russia. Centralist Putin is no fan of the Cossacks. The relation between the Kremlin, even in Tsaristic days, and the Cossacks has always been tensioned. If the Cossacks are responsable for this disaster, it will whipe them away for decades.
But...what if...the West stakes out its neck , provides all kind of so called undeniable proof, until Putin appears on TV and provides some very harsh other proof ?
Hey guys, WMD in Iraq as casu belli ? Still waiting...


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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 19 Jul 2014, 14:26

sn26567 wrote:
crlhub wrote:TEN QUESTIONS FOR THE UKRAINIAN AUTHORITIES

1. Immediately after the tragedy, the Ukrainian authorities, naturally, blamed it on the self-defense forces. What are these accusations based on?

etc.
Self-defense forces? I would call them terrorists, dissidents, or whatever, but certainly not self-defense forces. They were the ones who initiated the conflict. And it was reported in June that they had taken a Buk battery from the Ukrainian Armed Forces in Eastern Ukraine.

Anyway, why would the Ukrainian Army use Buk missiles when the dissidents do not have any aircraft?
That's what our politicians want us to think.
It's easy to create a supposed video that doesn't have any authentication, time stamp, source, etc...
Anyone can do that.

The conflict was not initiated by the rebels, this whole thing started with riots run and supported by U.S./EU governments, as in Egypt and Lybia. It's the exact same thing, same pattern, same evolution.

If Europe and the U.S. really cared for the Ukraine, why haven't they supported the Ukrainian industries when they had the chance to?
Why haven't they been supporting Antonov for instance? 10 years ago, when they had the choice between the more capable and cheaper Antonov AN70 and building the A400M, which route did they take? The only ones supporting the Ukrainians have been the Russians.

I think that Obama and his friends are playing a dirty game. The EU says they want the Ukraine, but do they really? There are already sufficient problems within the EU as it is, the EU simply can't afford to support the Ukraine, there is no money for it.

Personally, I think that Europe has more to gain from a closer partnership with Russia than one with the U.S. The U.S. is an economy in steady decline with an unstable political system, while Russia will be Europe's energy future with huge resources of biomass and oil. What do the Americans bring to our economy?

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by globetrotter » 19 Jul 2014, 16:21

There was also live cargo on board according to MASkargo manifest including two Dogs and nine Birds headed to four different places, one dog was likely the pet belonging to the family of three from Philippines who were also onboard bound for Manila.

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/content ... st%201.pdf

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Established02 » 19 Jul 2014, 17:26

Flanker2 wrote:Personally, I think that Europe has more to gain from a closer partnership with Russia than one with the U.S. The U.S. is an economy in steady decline with an unstable political system, while Russia will be Europe's energy future with huge resources of biomass and oil. What do the Americans bring to our economy?
In 2013 the Americans brought at least 3x more than the Russians.
Attachments
USA vs RU.PNG


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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 19 Jul 2014, 22:44

Another possible theory is that it was shot down by "rebels" who were actually working for the Ukrainian government. After all, they're all Ukrainians, so how do you know who's on whose side?

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by saratoga » 20 Jul 2014, 11:19

Still after 4 days, no expertise teams down there. People ripping the belongings, bodies are carried away to where. And yes, the black box will be vanished. It is making me really sick. How low can you go? No dignity at all.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Acid-drop » 20 Jul 2014, 13:42

It's a war zone, what should we expect...
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 15:21

Black boxes would be of little use when it's certain that the aircraft was shot down.
It's improbable that the pilots noticed anything until they were lost.

As to the belongings being taken away.
Usually, belongings never make it back to the families, as it's mostly impossible to identify what belonged to whom. So most of it is destroyed anyway.

As for the bodies, I'm sure that they're being taken to a morgue or some kind of facility where they can be stored, pending arrival of the families to pick them up. I'm sure that they won't just pick them up and throw them on a truck just for the fun of it. I don't know about you but picking up severely damaged body parts isn't exactly how I would want to spend my afternoon.
Leaving them there to rot or to be eaten by birds doesn't exactly offer more dignity.

Apparently, people have seen them being carried onto refrigerated train cars to an unknown location.

The separatists are saying they think they have what could be the black boxes, but are not sure due to lack of knowledge.

I can't highlight enough much we're being manipulated and brain-washed by our Western governments' propaganda-machine. The "rebels" in question are only locals who have lead a quiet and miserable life until their goernment was overthrown and they are now seen as a nuisance. They are being bombed by their own leaders, much as what is happening in Syria.
The neo-Ukrainian government has carried out airstrikes on Donetsk airport under control of the local separatists.

Image
Dmitry, a 19-year-old local who has joined the rebel fighters, said the Ukrainians deployed attack helicopters and jet fighters in the counter-attack.
“We’re always ready for an attack, that something might happen, but we had no specific intelligence or reason to expect this,” he said. “About midday helicopters appeared from the north-east, then jet fighters. I heard one or two large explosions, which sounded like the aircraft had dropped bombs. Then the fighting started.”
Dmitry, who said he headed to the airport to help the fighters shortly afterwards, described the battle as a Ukrainian army offensive in which government forces had the initiative, weight of numbers, and superior fire power.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rport.html

So things are not as simple as "the rebels are bad and the new Ukrainian government is good".

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 15:27

Latest news:
Rebels have control of the black boxes and will hand them over to ICAO.
Bodies are also under their control and will kept in refrigerated trains until an international delegation arrives.

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/2014/07/20 ... emove.html

It's apparent that the rebels are looking for a neutral third party to arrive and take control of the scene.
OSCE is at the scene but it does not have the expertise nor mandate to handle this accident. They are there to prevent tensions between interested parties, not to inspect aircraft. Rebels fear they might plant evidence, which seems justified to me. Hence, they do not allow them to get too close to the wreckages.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 15:54

IMO, the Ukrainian government has shown that it can't manage its own airspace's safety. Hence, I also believe that it won't be able to manage a more complex investigation.
Also, given the clear conflict of interest, it should no longer be the leading party in the investigation.
The U.S. have also voiced political statements. Hence, they are also no longer a neutral party.

ICAO seems the right solution if you're looking for neutrality. So far, it seems to me like the rebels are the ones seeking this neutral party, as they probably supect that the Ukrainians and the West will tamper with evidence to prove something that they may not have done.

Representative of the People's Republic of Donetsk in Russia, Andrei Rodkin, started that the militia of the breakaway republics were ready to negotiate truce with Kiev. According to him, the militia are interested to stop the killings of civilians and the destruction of infrastructure in the region, RIA Novosti reports.
"We want peace and we are ready to discuss truce to stop the killings of civilians and destruction of infrastructure," he said at a meeting at the Federation Council.

In general, he described the situation in the zone of armed clashes as "complex and tense." "It can not be otherwise given the overwhelming superiority of the Ukrainian army."

"There are not many of us, but, in all likelihood, we will defend ourselves. Today, there are three "pots," where the Ukrainian military men are staying. These are airports of Luhansk and Donetsk airport and the Ukrainian group that was surrounded two days ago during a special operation in Marinovka," Rodkin said.

Should the Ukrainian army build up its groups, the militia are ready to proceed to the guerrilla war tactics, said the representative of the self-proclaimed republic.

As for the crash of the Malaysian Boeing-777 in the south-eastern Ukraine, Rodkin repeated that the militia did not have the weapons capable of shooting down the aircraft at an altitude of 10 kilometers.
http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/18- ... 8vJ8_kZPLo

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 15:57

Could the Ukrainian military have done this? The Ukrainian government are the ones who stand most to gain from it.

Russian radars record active operation of Ukrainian air defense
18.07.2014 | Source: Pravda.Ru

Russian radio equipment recorded a radar station of the Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile system Buk was active on the day the Malaysian airliner crashed, officials with the Russian Defense Ministry said. The part of the route of the Malaysian jet, as well as a place of its crash, fall into the destruction area of two Ukrainian batteries of long-range anti-aircraft missile S-200 and three batteries of medium-range SAM Buk-M1.

Spokespeople for the Defense Ministry clarified that the Russian aero-technical equipment recorded active operations of radar station RLS-9s18 "Dome" of a battery of SAM Buk-M1, stationed near the village of Styla (30 kilometers south of Donetsk).

Officials also said that technical features of SAM Buk-M1 allow to exchange information on air targets between batteries of one division.

"Thus, the launch of missiles could be conducted from all batteries stationed in the village of Avdiyivka (8 kilometers north of Donetsk) or Gruzsko-Zaryanskoe (25 kilometers east of Donetsk)," concluded the Defense Ministry.

As a result of the crash of Boeing 777 on July 17 over the territory of Ukraine, 298 people were killed.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by sn26567 » 20 Jul 2014, 16:27

The old joke goes that in "Pravda" ("the truth" in Russian), the only truth is the date of the news.

I would not rely on Pravda to give an objective report on the situation. There may have been activity on Ukrainian Buk batteries on the day of the crash. But who can certify that those batteries were not under the control of the dissidents?
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by Flanker2 » 20 Jul 2014, 18:04

The Pravda is quoting the Russian Defense Ministry, hence Russia.
Obviously this is a he said - she said game.
The West will point fingers to Russia and Russia will point fingers to the West.

One thing is certain though:
The rebels had no motivation to down the aircraft on purpose, but the Ukrainians did.

It's one thing if the rebels shot it down by accident trying to defend themselves, but it's much worth if the Ukrainians downed the aircraft on purpose. This would mean that Ukraine is being lead by a group of insane people under control of the West.

The fact that they left the airspace open despite previous SAM attacks, the quick accusations, publishing of unverified and potentially fabricated evidence and even clear identification of the weapon system used, makes this case very suspicious.

What they are saying could be right but the amount of propaganda coming from the West is excessive, compared to what we hear from Russia and the rebels.

Also consider the timing: perhaps this accident is very convenient as it shadows the ethnic cleansing that is going in Gaza, with the support of the U.S.? Maybe too convenient because the media coverage of the conflict was quite negative until MH17 came to bring the necessary distraction.

I'm not saying that the rebels didn't do it, but this accident is just very convenient for the U.S. and Ukraine. You can clearly see the anti-Russian rethoric picking up while Israel and Gaza are now sideline news.

But we're on a small planet in the universe, where fighting eachother is senseless.
If we let politicians take control of us by manipulating our emotions instead of exercising critical thinking, they will have it their way and continue to impede human development.

Whenever an accident occurs, the politicians are the first to say "to wait for the conclusion of the investigation". Here however, they have immediately stepped up to political accusations, before even the first pieces of the wreckage touched the ground.
It's disgusting that both sides are using these deceased passengers to manipulate the global opinion, with evidence that none of us will ever have the chance to verify.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by RTM » 20 Jul 2014, 21:26

Flanker2 wrote:Black boxes would be of little use when it's certain that the aircraft was shot down.
It's improbable that the pilots noticed anything until they were lost.
That is true, if indeed it was shot down, wich is likely though. But for the sake of the investigation, the black boxes are vital in ruling out other scenario's. Also, the CVR can prove if there have been warnings issued or not. In the early hours there have been rumours that there were. The CVR can shed light on that.

Also I've seen a video where one of the rebels searching the area carried off one of the recorders. So their claim that they have them is valid if you ask me.


About the brain washing and conspiracy theories, I'm sorry you feel so paranoid. But as an indication, just compare the video of the press conference of prime minister Rutte of the Netherlands acout his phone call with the idiot called Putin, with the version the Russian media issued about the same phone call. And then tell me who is twisting the truth.
In all honesty, I do believe that the priority of the western governments truly is at first bring home the victims. And then have a thorough and nutral investigation to the cause of the accident. While nothing, other than his hollow words, seem to prove that Putins priority is tending to the victims and/or uncover the truth. If anything, it puts more and more suspection on him. And due to that, as a personal note, I tend to believe that the weapon used was supplied, and probably operated by Russians. The rebels may have pointed out the target, but it was a Russian that pulled the trigger, even though the equipment probably was able to distinguish the differance between a civil flight, or a military/hostile one.

Just my two cents, of coarse, but I find your natural tendacy to swim against the stream vey appaling in this case Flanker. Very disrespectfull to the victims to glorify the powers that, looking at the current situation, downed the aircraft.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukrai

Post by stratofreighter » 20 Jul 2014, 23:51

About the brain washing and conspiracy theories, I'm sorry you feel so paranoid.

But as an indication, just compare the video of the press conference of prime minister Rutte of the Netherlands acout his phone call with the idiot called Putin,
with the version the Russian media issued about the same phone call. And then tell me who is twisting the truth.
Indeed, the difference in reporting about this was and IS huge.

http://news.sky.com/story/1304272/dutch ... ldren-home
In this video a Dutch mother is pleading to the right person to get the bodies of her son and and his girlfriend back. That person is Vladimir P.
http://www.airnieuws.nl updated per 04 aug 2019: ;)

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