Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 03 Dec 2015, 15:49

Passenger wrote:Malaysia Airlines ends the route Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur (MH-19, previously MH-17) as from 26th January 2016. The routing will then be offered as code sharing route on Emirates, via Dubai.
I guess that KLM will no longer codeshare on that route when it will be operated by Emirates...
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 03 Dec 2015, 18:48

sn26567 wrote:I guess that KLM will no longer codeshare on that route when it will be operated by Emirates...
As I said:

Statement Kuala Lumpur

Samenvatting
KLM heeft vandaag van Malaysia Airlines vernomen dat Malaysia Airlines stopt met vliegen van Kuala Lumpur naar Amsterdam in januari.

KLM vliegt dagelijks van en naar Kuala Lumpur vanuit Amsterdam met een Boeing 777. Malaysia Airlines en KLM hebben een codeshare-overeenkomst op elkaars vluchten. De toekomst voor wat betreft invulling van de samenwerking tussen KLM en Malaysia Airlines zal nader worden besproken tussen partijen. KLM bestudeert ook of met de huidige capaciteit de marktvraag kan worden beantwoord.


KLM is evaluating the situation and will decide later about the cooperation with Malaysia Airlines.
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 03 Jan 2016, 21:56

About twenty Russian soldiers know which of them fired the BUK-rocket on flight MH17 on July 17, 2014. That is what said Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat, in an interview with the Dutch broadcaster NOS. Bellingcat is a platform for investigative journalism based on open sources. According to NOS, Bellingcat followed the soldiers on social media and other public Internet sources.

The Dutch Public Prosecutor has received the findings. These will be "seriously considered, examined and assessed on their suitability for the criminal investigation," quoted an NOS spokesman. The prosecution is leading the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) that carries out the criminal justice investigating the downing of flight MH17.

Bellingcat stated last year that the Russian BUK-missile system which shot down flight MH17 was transported to Ukraine by the Second Battalion of the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade, coming from the area of ​​Kursk in Russia. The battalion consisted of about a hundred soldiers, but Bellingcat knew how to reduce the number of soldiers involved to about twenty man, says NOS. One of them is the commander of the 53rd brigade. Because of his position, "he has certainly played a role in the downing of flight MH17 because his brigade has delivered the "weapon" ", Bellingcat is quoted on the NOS site. Also involved are "some very experienced soldiers" who had been trained to operate a BUK-missile system.

The Dutch Safety Board (OVV) concluded last year that Flight MH17 had been shot down with a BUK-rocket and based its conclusion, inter alia, on the metal particles found on the plane and on the bodies of three crew members. OVV-chairman Tjibbe Joustra said that the BUK-missile came from areas where pro-Russian rebels wrested control.
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 03 Jan 2016, 22:34

sn26567 wrote:About twenty Russian soldiers know which of them fired the BUK-rocket on flight MH17 on July 17, 2014. That is what said Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat, in an interview with the Dutch broadcaster NOS. Bellingcat is a platform for investigative journalism based on open sources. According to NOS, Bellingcat followed the soldiers on social media and other public Internet sources.

The Dutch Public Prosecutor has received the findings. These will be "seriously considered, examined and assessed on their suitability for the criminal investigation," quoted an NOS spokesman. The prosecution is leading the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) that carries out the criminal justice investigating the downing of flight MH17.

Bellingcat stated last year that the Russian BUK-missile system which shot down flight MH17 was transported to Ukraine by the Second Battalion of the 53rd anti-aircraft missile brigade, coming from the area of ​​Kursk in Russia. The battalion consisted of about a hundred soldiers, but Bellingcat knew how to reduce the number of soldiers involved to about twenty man, says NOS. One of them is the commander of the 53rd brigade. Because of his position, "he has certainly played a role in the downing of flight MH17 because his brigade has delivered the "weapon" ", Bellingcat is quoted on the NOS site. Also involved are "some very experienced soldiers" who had been trained to operate a BUK-missile system.

The Dutch Safety Board (OVV) concluded last year that Flight MH17 had been shot down with a BUK-rocket and based its conclusion, inter alia, on the metal particles found on the plane and on the bodies of three crew members. OVV-chairman Tjibbe Joustra said that the BUK-missile came from areas where pro-Russian rebels wrested control.
This Bellingcat guy has never been on the crash site, and he has been critized for his poor "investigation work" on MH-17 before by real professionals:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 37125.html

NOS writes that Bellingcat's only source is "social media and public internet sources" ("...Volgens de NOS spoorde Bellingcat de militairen op via sociale media en andere openbare internetbronnen...") Are we really going to accept, for a mass murder criminal court case, what people write on Facebook and Twitter? Let's assume someone wrote "I shot it down!" after twenty vodka's. For Bellingcat, that's a confession from the murderer.

Initially, he had 100 suspects. How he reduced it to a short list of 20 people? Only he knows.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 05 Jan 2016, 22:45

The Dutch Safety Board (OVV) wins the Machiavelli Price 2015. The council was awarded the prize because "with the report on the downing of MH17, clarity is brought to the relatives in particular and the world in general - where possible". The jury also considers that the OVV is a prime example of good communication.
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 14 Jan 2016, 11:05

The Russian viewpoint after the Dutch final report:

MH17 final report after Russia continued investigation

Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 crashed in the war-torn Donetsk Region in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, killing all 298 passengers and crew on board.

According to the DSB’s findings, the Boeing 777 was shot down by a Russian-made Buk missile with a 9N314M warhead. However, the Dutch experts were unable to determine which side in the conflict – the Ukrainian government forces or the rebels – was responsible for firing the missile.

Some of the key conclusions of the Dutch Safety Board’s final report on the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash were ‘unsubstantiated and inaccurate,’ Russia’s aviation agency said in a letter to its counterpart in the Netherlands, citing new research.

Since the final report, released on October 13, 2015, did not reflect many important facts mentioned by the Russian side, the country’s experts continued their investigation into the reasons for the crash, Oleg Storchevoy, deputy head of Rosaviatsiya, wrote in a letter addressed to leadership of the Dutch Safety Board (DSB).

In a letter, the Rosaviatsiya official stresses that the final DSB report “unfairly obscures the issue of liability” for ensuring flight safety over the war-zone in Donbass, “shifting the blame from Ukraine to airlines and international aviation organizations, e.g. the ICAO [International Civil Aviation Organization].”

Kiev should have closed the airspace in the area as soon hostilities broke out between government forces and the rebels in eastern Ukraine in April 2014, the letter says.

The DSB report provides no explanation for Ukraine’s failure to close the airspace over the conflict zone, it adds.

Thus, the Ukrainian authorities deliberately concealed or distorted information on real threats to the safety of civil flights arising from the military activities… As a result, other states and airlines (including Malaysia Airlines) did not have sufficient official information for making a decision to suspend flights over Ukraine,” Storchevoy writes.

The statements by US and NATO officials presented in the final report are limited to speculations on whether Russian troops or the Russian Army’s weapons were present in Ukraine,” the letter said, adding that those claims were “not true.”

According to the letter, the Dutch report provides no facts proving “the presence or the use of Buk surface-to-air missiles in the region,” only saying that the downing of an An-26 and Su-25 in the area shortly before the MH17 tragedy does not rule out such a possibility.

Even assuming the aircraft was brought down by a Buk surface-to-air missile, the description of fragments provided in the report does not match the strike elements used in the 9N314M warhead,” Storchevoy stresses.

In the DSB’s final report, the shape of the fragments is examined separately from their mass. However, Russian tests revealed that the chemical composition of the shards does not match that of a 9N314M warhead.

Storchevoy also pointed out that the “penetration holes on the aircraft wreckage are not consistent with those normally created by the detonation of a 9N314M warhead.”

In addition, the final report did not mention several fragments of the alleged Buk missile found on the Malaysian plane’s crash site that had been shown by the Dutch experts to their Russian colleagues.

One of them – the Section 3 encasing – “does not match the appearance of fragments of the same encasing normally resulting from the detonation of a 9M38-series (9M38M1) missile,” the letter stressed.
During a full-scale experiment conducted by the Russian side, the missile “disintegrated into large shapeless fragments,” while the fragments from the MH17 crash site were “only slightly damaged… not deformed,” it added.

Another important point, according to Storchevoy, is that “the location of the missile in relation to the aircraft at the moment of detonation as provided in the final report does not match the fragmentation spray area on the aircraft wreckage.

The possible launch area of the missile, which allegedly hit the MH17 was also “calculated incorrectly,” he stressed.

Dimensions and boundary of damage, the number and density of penetration holes on the wreckage and especially the nature of damage to the frame of the Boeing 777 aircraft are not consistent with the warhead detonation point and missile orientation as presented in the final report,” the letter explained.

The Dutch investigators said the missile came from somewhere within a 320 square kilometer area within eastern Ukraine, which would mean it couldn’t establish the side of the conflict which had controlled that launch site.

However, a comprehensive experiment conducted by Russian arms producer Almaz-Antey demonstrated that the aircraft could only have been hit by a Buk missile if it had come from the village of Zaroshchenskoye, Storchevoy said.

The letter concludes that the Dutch report is inaccurate and flawed in its reasoning. The evidence the Dutch side cites matches neither the 9N314M warhead, which they believe had caused the crash of MH17, nor any of the 9M38 series of BUK missiles, which the Dutch believe delivered the warhead.

The scenario of how the missile approached its target does not match the fragment spray area of the wreckage, it added.

It also stressed Ukraine’s responsibility to close its airspace to civilian aviation in the area of hostilities in the east of the country, which it failed to observe, and challenged the Dutch report’s assessment that two Ukrainian military aircraft downed before MH17 may have been destroyed by heavy anti-aircraft weapons.
RT investigation Jan 14, 2016

We are still a long way from determining who are the culprits!
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 15 Jan 2016, 16:46

Dutch Safety Board examining new Russian findings on MH17 crash

The Dutch Safety Board (DSB) has confirmed the receipt of a letter from Russia's civil aviation regulator Rosaviatsia and is now examining the new facts on the investigation of the MH17 crash over Ukraine in July 2014, DSB spokesperson told Sputnik on Thursday.

Earlier in the day, Rosaviatsia said its deputy head Oleg Storchevoy sent a letter to the Dutch Safety Board with new facts obtained by Russian experts through an additional study which confirms that some conclusions of the final report on the MH17 crash over Ukraine were unsubstantiated and inaccurate.

We just received it and we are studying into it,” Wim van der Weegen said stressing that it was not clear when the DSB would comment on the new facts provided by Russian experts.

The new facts of the Dutch report called into question include the presence of heavy air defense systems in eastern Ukraine that were not controlled by Ukrainian government forces, the fact that the aircraft was hit by a 9N314M high-explosive fragmentation warhead, that the warhead that hit the aircraft was carried by a 9M38-series missile launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system, and the position of the missile in relation to the aircraft at the moment of detonation, as well as the area it was launched from.

Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 crashed over the Donetsk region in southeastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, killing all 298 people on board. The Kiev government forces and local independence supporters were fighting in the area at the time, and traded blame for the incident.

On October 13, 2015, the Dutch Safety Board published a report stating that the MH17 aircraft that had been shot down using a Russia-produced Buk surface-to-air missile system. However, the organization was unable to identify the exact location from where the missile was launched, saying it could have been fired from anywhere within "an area of 320 square kilometers (123 square miles) in eastern Ukraine."

Russian arms manufacturer Almaz-Antey, which has conducted a separate probe into the crash, said the missile had exploded near the left side of the aircraft and considered this fact to be proof that the missile could only have been a 9M38 missile from a Buk system launched from the region of Zaroshchenske, controlled by Kiev forces at the time of the incident.

Source: Russian Aviation
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 25 Jan 2016, 22:37

Tuesday's Kuala Lumpur-Amsterdam-Kuala Lumpur (MH-16 / MH-19, B777, 9M-MLR) is Malaysia Airlines' last flight to/from Amsterdam.

Frankfurt and Paris have been cancelled already, leaving MH with only Heathrow as European destination.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 11 Feb 2016, 15:32

Moscow shared MH17 radar images, Dutch probe ignored evidence, Russia tells victims’ relatives

Moscow provided the Netherlands with radar and other data on the MH17 crash but it has all been ignored, a Russian aviation official said, responding to the relatives of Dutch victims who recently wrote to President Vladimir Putin.

Oleg Storchevoy, the deputy head of Rosaviatsia, the agency representing Russia in the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash investigation, has personally addressed the relatives of the victims in a lengthy letter.

"I would like to emphasize that Russia is strongly committed to establishing the actual cause of the crash, and has consistently done everything in its power to help find out the truth, both throughout the course of the technical investigation and following its official completion," he said.

Desperate for answers that would shed the light on who fired the BUK missile that allegedly hit the passenger plane on July 17, 2014, and dissatisfied with the slow-moving Dutch probe, the relatives have turned to the heads of several states, including Russia’s. On January 22, they sent a letter to Putin, asking about the primary data from radars and satellites, which they think is crucial.

"We did not impose any conditions or restrictions regarding further use and disclosure of radar data, records of phone conversations and other data we submitted to the Dutch Safety Board (DSB) at its request. Moreover, Russia has stored all that data to this day, and is willing to provide it once again to the relevant authorities," said Storchevoy.

In mid-January, the relatives wrote to Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, demanding a global campaign to obtain radar images that could help identify those responsible for the death of their loved ones.

We can’t accept that people have refused to provide crucial information,” they wrote.

‘Only radar data available is Russia’s’

While the Russian authorities were not involved in controlling the fatal flight, they still soon became de-facto participants of the investigation due to the unique information obtained from radars in Rostov-on-Don, a Russian city not far from the Ukrainian border.

"I would like to stress that Russia disclosed all of its available satellite data in the days immediately following the crash,"said Storchevoy.

Rosaviatsia’s deputy head stressed that the Russian radar data was the only such data available to the Dutch investigators, as it appeared that Ukraine’s radar stations “for unknown reasons” were not functioning on July 17. Neither did Ukrainian authorities have any backup system to maintain flight safety in the military zone.

Dutch report ignored Russia’s data

Having provided the radar data and phone records requested by the Dutch, Russia has never prohibited the Netherlands from either sharing with other states or publishing the information generally, Storchevoy said.

However, this evidence appears not to have been reflected in the Dutch Safety Board’s (DSB) final report, released in October.

Russia is still ready to provide the same data, which it collects in video files in accordance with domestic regulations, to any authorized parties.

Moscow has also published the satellite images from July 2014 that showed Ukrainian BUK missile systems maneuvering in the conflict zone close to the site of the crash. It had handed the same images over to the DSB. However, this evidence has been ignored as well.

"This data confirms, among other things, that there was movement and increased activity by Ukrainian Buk surface-to-air missile systems observed within the conflict area in Eastern Ukraine one day ahead of the tragedy," Storchevoy mentioned.

"Russia shared that information with the Dutch Safety Board, but once its final report was released, it turned out the DSB had chosen not to consider Russian satellite data or even include them in the report," he added.

Netherlands drags out probe, delays final report

Speaking of Russia’s efforts, the Rosaviatsia officials accused the DSB of leaving a number of important questions unanswered, of distorting the facts and of deliberately carrying out the probe at a sluggish pace.

Storchevoy has called on Ukraine and the US to provide the information they have. He said Washington “must” share satellite images that it claims it has, while Kiev should either share its radar data or prove that it doesn’t have it.

"As far as the quality of the technical inquiry is concerned, I must point out that, in a totally inexplicable fashion, its final report leaves the most important question unanswered: How far is Ukraine responsible for failing to close its airspace? The report is extremely vague regarding the responsibility of the government in Kiev," Storchevoy said.

Russia extremely interested in truth

In his address to the relatives of Dutch victims, Storchevoy has stressed Russia’s commitment to uncover the truth. Even after the end of the official probe, he said, Moscow is still going out of its way to find answers to major questions.

Moscow provided data from all of its radars that recorded the MH17 flight to the Dutch Safety Board in August 2014, shortly after the catastrophe, Storchevoy said.

Aside from that, Almaz-Antey, the manufacturers of the 9N314M BUK missile that the investigation said downed the plane, have staged two real-life tests. They involved decommissioned aircraft and BUK anti-aircraft missiles to verify whether missile systems currently deployed by Russian troops could have been involved in the downing of the Malaysian Airlines aircraft.

However, the results of these tests have also been ignored, as has Russia’s invitation to the Dutch investigators to participate.

Storchevoy has urged the relatives of the MH17 victims to not give up on their efforts to dig out the truth and to demand maximum transparency from both Dutch authorities and their partners in the probe.

"Russia has repeatedly pointed out that the Dutch technical investigation was performed in an extremely nontransparent and biased manner. We support you in your efforts to get answers to the numerous questions that remain unanswered," he said.

The Netherlands is finalizing its second, criminal investigation into the MH17 incident, which is likely to point fingers at specific suspects. The crash killed nearly 300 passengers and crew members on July 17, 2014 in the Donetsk Region of Eastern Ukraine. A majority of those killed in the crash were Dutch citizens.

Rather than pointing fingers, Storchevoy says it would be better for the DSB to answer questions regarding why the investigation took so long and why they hid certain pieces of information.

"The Dutch authorities should explain why they distorted facts and concealed data, and why they ignored important data provided by Russia. The DSB should explain why its final report distorted data about missile fragments and places where they were found, why it failed to thoroughly examine penetration holes on the aircraft, why it misrepresented the probable location from which the missile was launched, and many other discrepancies in the final report," Storchevoy concluded.

Source: Russian Aviation
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 23 Feb 2016, 16:50

Dutch prosecutors hope to confirm by this summer the launch site of the Buk surface-to-air missile that shot down Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 in July 2014, killing 298 people.

The Netherlands National Public Prosecution Service has told relatives of those who died in the incident that it hopes to confirm the location of the launch site and gather more information on the possible perpetrators by this summer. The agency will also confirm what type of weapon was used.

It is not possible to say when in the future the JIT [Joint Investigation Team] will be able to establish what their exact connection to the crime is, their identity, and actual place of residence,” the agency said in a Feb. 19 statement.

The agency said it would not reveal to the media the contents of the letter sent to the victims’ relatives. But Dutch outlet RTL Nieuws reported that the letter, written by chief investigator Fred Westerbeke, says that no footage or imagery exists of the missile launch and there are no satellite images because of overcast conditions on the day of the shootdown. He added that the agency was requesting radar imagery from Russia and that negotiations were ongoing.

The letter also says that other methods are being used to provide evidence, including telephone taps, images and local testimony.

Source: Aviation Week
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 25 Feb 2016, 16:16

Update 25th February 2016 by the Dutch Safety Board:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... ment#fasen

Quote: "...On 4 and 10 February 2016 Dutch Parliament has asked questions to the Dutch Safety Board. These questions relate to the investigations of the Board into the crash of flight MH17. The Dutch Safety Board has responded to these questions and also issued its response to a letter of the Russian Federation. You can find both responses below (questions are in Dutch)..."

Response to questions Dutch Parliament:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm ... 500272.pdf

Response to letter Russian Federation:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm ... 500274.pdf

Appendix letter to Russian Federation:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm ... 500274.pdf

- - -

The initial source page is:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... -july-2014

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 09 Jul 2016, 09:04

The criminal investigation, led by the Dutch public prosecutor, seems to exclude Ukrain as a possible suspect. I'm not pro or anti Russia and I'm not pro or anti Ukrain, but me thinks it's far too early to exclude Ukrain as possible culprit. Two articles in the same newspaper about the visit from the Dutch prime minister to Ukrain today suggest that the public prosecutor is too biased to lead the criminal investigation:

1. The Dutch public prosecutor wants support from the Dutch government to put pressure on Russia/Poetin to give their primary radar data:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2617 ... den__.html

2. The Dutch governenment will put no pressure on Ukrain/Poroshenko to give their primary radar data because the Dutch public prosecutor doesn't asks it. Prime minister Rutte will only ask Poroshenko to reply to a letter, sent to him by relatives a few months ago:
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2617 ... den__.html

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Poiu » 09 Jul 2016, 13:03

The best way for Russia to prove their innocence is to provide the radar data.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 09 Jul 2016, 15:48

Russia was excluded for the technical investigation, and their findings were not even taken in consideration: they were just "noted". And now, Russia is excluded for the judicial investigation, so why would they collaborate? In a criminal investigation, it's not the accused who has to proof he's innocent: its the public prosecutor who has to proof guilt.

The plain fact that the Dutch public prosecutor only demands primary data from Russia, and not from Ukrain, is a statement that Ukrain is no suspect. A public prosecutor may only conclude such at the end of his investigation, and not at the beginning of it.

(I'm no Poetin fan, but there are two possible suspects here: Russia ànd Ukrain).

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 15 Sep 2016, 15:34

Dutch Safety Board press release 15th Sept 2016:

https://onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzoek/ ... ions#fasen

Follow-up of the MH17 Passenger information recommendations

The Dutch Government has taken various actions as a result of the three recommendations in the MH17 Passenger information report to ensure that passenger information is made available more quickly and that next of kin are better informed. The Dutch Safety Board is positive about the efforts and proposals, however, it still has to be proven whether these will actually lead to specific improvements in practice. The Dutch Safety Board is of the opinion that the recommendations are being adequately followed up.

The final MH17 Passenger information report revealed that the Dutch victims' next of kin had to needlessly wait for a long time for official confirmation from the government about the fate of their relatives. The information gathered by different organisations about the victims and their next of kin was not combined, resulting in it taking too long before a clear and complete list was available. The Dutch authorities lacked management and coordination in gathering the information.

To improve and speed up the process of informing the next of kin, the Board made three recommendations to central government related to registering records on nationality, improving the process of informing next of kin and simplifying crisis organisation in the Netherlands. In a joint letter the Minister of Security and Justice, the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of the Interior and Kingdom Relations, and the State Secretary of Infrastructure and the Environment responded to the report and to the recommendations. It reveals that the Dutch Government has now taken various actions to ensure passenger information is registered more effectively and is more accessible in the event of an emergency, at the national and international levels. Central government is also busy drafting a civil aviation accident emergency plan at national level to be better prepared in the event of a crash at home or abroad. With regard to simplifying crisis organisation in the Netherlands the ministers indicate that the government is busy developing uniform national crisis plans.

- - -

The above press release is also available in Dutch:
https://onderzoeksraad.nl/nl/onderzoek/ ... vergt-tijd

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 28 Sep 2016, 14:17

In his preliminary conclusions released today, the Dutch public prosecutor has determined that the BUK missile that shot down the plane had been transported from the territory of the Russian Federation. After the missile was fired, the launcher returned to Russia.

You may draw whatever conclusions you like...
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 28 Sep 2016, 19:25

sn26567 wrote:In his preliminary conclusions released today, the Dutch public prosecutor has determined that the BUK missile that shot down the plane had been transported from the territory of the Russian Federation. After the missile was fired, the launcher returned to Russia.
Initial paragraph of the official statement:
"...The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) is convinced of having obtained irrefutable evidence to establish that on 17 July 2014, flight MH-17 was shot down by a BUK missile from the 9M38-series. According to the JIT there is also evidence identifying the launch location that involves an agricultural field near Pervomaiskyi which, at the time, was controlled by pro-Russian fighters. This was announced today by the JIT during a presentation for the relatives of the victims. Members of the JIT, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands and Ukraine, are working together on the criminal investigation into the crash of flight MH17..."

Full text:
https://www.om.nl/onderwerpen/mh17-cras ... mh17-shot/
sn26567 wrote:You may draw whatever conclusions you like...
I have no affinity at all towards Poetin, apart from the fact that I'm pleased that he manages to keep the Russian communists away from power. And I dislike Kiev and its "president" Poroshenko because they forbit that 99% of the inhabitants of Eastern Ukrain use their native language for official use. That being said:

This Joint Investigation Team (JIT) was not established to find out what happened: that's a task for the Dutch Safety Board (Onderzoeksraad voor de Veiligheid). The JIT, led by the Dutch Prosecutor, was established for a criminal investigation, leading to a final conviction in court. What we witness here, is a political statement:

1. it is a shame that one of the two possible culprits - Oekrain - is a member of the JIT. Can you imagine that the lawyer from a major drugdealer joins the police team that has to investigate his dealer network? By accepting Ukrain in the JIT, the Dutch Public Prosecutor did exactly that.

2. The above statement "pro-Russian fighters" is a political statement. The correct statement should be "anti-Kiev rebels". Eastern Ukrain wants to remain a province/region of Ukrain. Off course they don't like dislike Russia, but they don't want their region to be attached to Russia, hence they are not "pro-Russia".

3. Every single statement, proof, fact, evidence, testimony brought up by Russia was rejected. Example: the photos that the JIT uses to proof the transport of the Buk from Russia to Ukrain. Russian media (like RT.com) have proven that the photos were taken in a central region of Ukrain (controlled by Kiev). The contra proof was firm: the place where the photos were taken was established upon a billboard from a central-Ukrain car dealer, not from one between Eastern Ukrain and the Russian border.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 31 Jan 2017, 22:27

Russia denies Dutch claims that radar data on MH17 crash violated international reequirements

Russian Federal Air Transport Agency Rosaviatsia denied Dutch claims of Russia's radar data on MH17 crash allegedly violating international requirements.

Rosaviatsia also stated that Russia has provided the Netherlands with MH17 crash primary radar data three months ago and since has not received any requests for help of Russian experts to decode the data.

Rosaviatsia also said that the Netherlands is deliberately delaying the investigation into the Malaysian Airlines plane crash over southeastern Ukraine.

Full story: http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2017/1/31/8008/
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Post by Passenger » 01 Feb 2017, 11:43

sn26567 wrote:
31 Jan 2017, 22:27
Russia denies Dutch claims that radar data on MH17 crash violated international reequirements

Russian Federal Air Transport Agency Rosaviatsia denied Dutch claims of Russia's radar data on MH17 crash allegedly violating international requirements. Rosaviatsia also stated that Russia has provided the Netherlands with MH17 crash primary radar data three months ago and since has not received any requests for help of Russian experts to decode the data. Rosaviatsia also said that the Netherlands is deliberately delaying the investigation into the Malaysian Airlines plane crash over southeastern Ukraine.
Full story: http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2017/1/31/8008/
Isn't it strange indeed that the Joined Investigation Team took three months to notice that the Russian radar images have another format then generally used? Why hasn't the JIT asked Russia for assistance with the read-out, immediately when they saw that they couldn't manage it themselves?

Thierry Baudet is a Dutch publicist, tv-maker, lawyer and a new politician (Forum voor Democratie). He knows the Ukrain politics quite well: Baudet was co-organizer of the "Oekraine Referendum" = a Dutch referendum that voted for the rejection of Association Agreement between the European Union and Ukrain. The Dutch press therefore asked Baudet about the "findings" of the JIT about the Russian radar data. Baudet repeats that is very strange that Ukrain is an active member of the Joint Investigation Team, given the fact that Ukrain is also a suspect for the shooting of MH17. I agree with Baudet: it's like police investigators asking a drugdealer to analize his own cellphone for suspicious telephone numbers.

Article Up in the Sky, 31 Jan 2017:
http://www.upinthesky.nl/2017/01/31/rus ... onderzoek/
Ukrain Referendum:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Ukr ... ndum,_2016

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 20 Feb 2017, 15:20

Russia offers to decode radar data

As reported today at RT, Moscow has offered its assistance in decoding radar data it previously shared with the Dutch commission investigating the crash of a Malaysia Airlines flight over Ukraine. The material was provided “raw” to the investigators ensuring it’s “most detailed.”

The radar data was given to the Dutch in the most detailed form – raw – which automatically indicates its authenticity and exclusivity,” the Russian aviation regulator Rosaviatsiya said in a statement published on Saturday.

It referred to the “primary data” which was shared with the Netherlands in October 2016. Russia’s air transport agency said, “the factual information clearly describes the actual air traffic situation at the time of the MH17 tragedy.

Moscow’s offer comes after the Dutch prosecutor’s office said earlier this week that they could not read the raw radar data shared by the Russians, as it was presented in an “unusual format” as opposed to the “standard” ASTERIX format. International air traffic control agencies often use the ASTERIX format developed in Europe, prosecutors said.

Rosaviatsiya argued the data it shared with the Netherlands was valuable primarily because it was raw. When converted into the ASTERIX format, it would be much less detailed, the agency said.

Unlike the raw radar data, which “consists of images circulating within the radar itself,” the “standard” ASTERIX format “involves the transfer of data in a processed form, which, in fact, turns it into secondary information that does not allow us to see even 25 percent of what the primary data from the radar shows,” the agency stated.

It is common international practice for investigators of aircraft accidents to invite and engage professionals working with specific equipment to help them in their inquiries, the Russian regulator pointed out adding that Moscow is ready to assist the Netherlands in the decoding process if needed.

Despite Russia being perplexed with the fact that it has taken the Netherlands three months to recognize the so-called technical snag [inability to decode raw radar data], Russia is at any time ready to grant international investigators the assistance of professional developers who are familiar with the system of decrypting information from the radar,” Rosaviatsiya said.

The Dutch prosecutor’s office earlier shared plans to submit an additional request for legal assistance with the Russian authorities.

Last fall, a Russian radar producer reportedly discovered radar equipment which had been replaced during scheduled maintenance shortly after the MH17 tragedy, and which still held primary data from the day of the crash. These records were handed over to Dutch prosecutors.

Source: eTN
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