Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 05 Dec 2014, 20:35

Angry families of MH17 crash victims seek U.N. investigation

Relatives of MH17 crash victims, angered by what they see as Dutch mishandling of inquiries into the disaster, want a special U.N. envoy to launch an international investigation.

A letter sent to Prime Minister Mark Rutte on Friday said Dutch officials had failed to build a case. They asked that inquiries by the Safety Board and prosecution service be handed over to the United Nations.

Rutte should "request the U.N. to appoint a special envoy to take over," said the letter written by Van der Goen Attorneys.

The Dutch launched the largest criminal investigation in their history after the crash. This week, trucks are carrying pieces of the plane home, but much of the wreckage still lies in Ukrainian fields.

Dutch investigators, leading a case involving 11 countries, have not concluded how the plane was shot down or identified suspects.

The Netherlands "has completely botched" the fact-finding investigation and the legal framework of the case, said the letter, sent on behalf of 20 relatives from Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands and the United States.

Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/ ... OK20141205
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 08 Dec 2014, 15:52

Ukraine ignored warning to close Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 airspace before tragedy

UKRAINE was urged to close the east of the country to civil aviation days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July but ignored the warning.

Sources at Eurocontrol, the organisation that manages Europe’s air traffic, said its experts spoke privately to their Ukrainian counterparts about the potential threat after more than 20 Ukrainian military aircraft were destroyed by Russian-backed rebels.

The Ukrainians continued to let planes fly over the affected area, however. The sources said Eurocontrol did not have the power to interfere with countries’ decisions.

The revelation looks certain to fuel the anger of the families of the 298 passengers and crew — 38 of them Australians — who died when the plane was shot down on July 17.

Some families are taking legal action against the Ukrainian government for refusing to shut the airspace above the conflict zone. They say there was abundant evidence rebel forces were using missiles that could have endangered civilian aircraft.

In the week before the downing of MH17, separatist militias shot down at least four Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 airforce jet fighters and one Antonov-26 transporter, which was flying at 6500m.

Following the destruction of the Antonov on July 14, Ukrainian authorities raised the minimum height at which civilian aircraft were required to fly over the region from 8000m to 9700m but refused to close the airspace. MH17 was flying at 10,000m when it was hit.

Several airlines re-routed their flights weeks before the attack on the Malaysian plane, which is believed to have been targeted by mistake. Several others, including Malaysia Airlines, did not.

There was further controversy last week when it emerged that Dutch authorities had removed from their report into the crash a clause in an earlier version that said Ukraine had raised the altitude level for civilian airlines.

Ukraine intelligence sources said they had been made aware that several anti-aircraft systems had crossed from Russia into Ukraine at least a week before the MH17 incident. But they claimed the intelligence was not “100 per cent reliable” and could not have been used as grounds for “drastic moves” such as shutting airspace.

Full article: http://www.malaysiandigest.com/frontpag ... agedy.html
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 18 Dec 2014, 18:05

US Submits Classified Information on MH17 to Investigators

WASHINGTON, December 17 (Sputnik) – The United States has provided all information on MH17 crash to Dutch investigators and the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), the Assistant Secretary of US Department of State's European and Eurasian Affairs said Wednesday.

"We have given all of our information, including our classified information to the Dutch who are the investigators and to ICAO… So any efforts to say that we have not are also untrue," Victoria Nuland said at the American Enterprise Institute.

She said that after the July 17 crash of the Malaysia Airlines MH17 flight in eastern Ukraine that killed 298 people, US Secretary of State John Kerry provided a detailed description of how the United States believed the plane had crashed.

Nuland added that the Dutch are likely to ask Washington to disclose some of that classified information.
"I think we will be able to help in that," she said. "But the best declassified set of information from US assets is still contained in what Secretary Kerry said that day."

Nuland also stressed that the United States has been very clear publicly and privately with Russia with regard to what they know, however, questions if Moscow has shared all of its information.

"We encourage both the Dutch and ICAO to seek information from Russia, because there's been a lot of funky theories coming from the Russian public," Nuland concluded.

Full article from Sputnik
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by regi » 19 Dec 2014, 12:20

and Ukraine has satellite images of the launching of the rocket !
Sorry, for the moment just in Dutch:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/31172/Rampvluc ... MH17.dhtml

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 21 Dec 2014, 11:47

regi wrote:and Ukraine has satellite images of the launching of the rocket !
Sorry, for the moment just in Dutch:

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/31172/Rampvluc ... MH17.dhtml
This breaking news "Ukraine has satellite images of the launching of the rocket" has been denied by Fred Westerbeke, the Dutch leading Public Prosecutor, in an in dept interview with the Dutch newspaper NRC (20/12/2014). Westerbeke: “There are satellite images with (Buks) rocket launchers, and there are photo’s and movies with the launch of (Buks) rockets. But there is no conclusive evidence that they are what we’re looking for”.

Westerbeke: “I have never seen a criminal investigation with so much political pressure”.

Source (subscription article with clear copyright, hence limited copy/paste here):
http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/van/2014/ ... et-1452559

So why that sudden statement from Ukrain president Poroshenko? Perhaps because he wanted to please once again the USA and the EU? Yesterday, the IMF told that Ukrain has asked once again for another urgent loan of 15 billion Dollar…

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 03 Jan 2015, 13:00

Nico Voorbach, (former) president of the European Cockpit Association, blames Ukrain for not having closed its airspace.

Dutch only so far:
http://nos.nl/artikel/2011572-oekra-ne- ... uiten.html

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mad_fab » 21 Mar 2015, 02:13

"MH17 disaster: Missile fragment 'found at crash site'"

"Dutch broadcaster RTL says it has new evidence that the Malaysia Airlines plane shot down over Ukraine last July was hit by a surface-to-air missile.

Forensic analysis of a metal fragment found at the crash site of flight MH17 by a journalist indicated it was from the warhead of a Russian-made Buk."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-31978578

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 21 Mar 2015, 12:16

mad_fab wrote:Forensic analysis of a metal fragment found at the crash site of flight MH17 by a journalist indicated it was from the warhead of a Russian-made Buk."
The Ukrain state army has "Russian-made" Buks: Ukrain bought them from Russia some years ago, when Ukrain and Russia were friendly neighboors.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by FLYAIR10 » 22 Mar 2015, 12:04

mad_fab wrote:Forensic analysis of a metal fragment found at the crash site of flight MH17 by a journalist indicated it was from the warhead of a Russian-made Buk."


The Ukrain state army has "Russian-made" Buks: Ukrain bought them from Russia some years ago, when Ukrain and Russia were friendly neighboors.
If this 'evidence' found at the crash-site is validated , that could at least proove that MH370 was not shot down by an air-to-air missile coming from an Ukrainian warplane as was claimed by the Russians.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 22 Mar 2015, 12:43

FLYAIR10 wrote:If this 'evidence' found at the crash-site is validated , that could at least proove that MH370 was not shot down by an air-to-air missile coming from an Ukrainian warplane as was claimed by the Russians.
Actually, Russia didn't claimed that this happened. Russia only complained against the fact that the possibility was excluded by the investigators, although both Russian intelligence and a Spanish ATC working in Kiev at that moment provided a proof for the presence of a MiG (MiG-25?) near the 777.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 30 Apr 2015, 14:39

Press release 30/04/2015 from the Dutch government: the recovery mission at the crash site has ended and the 24 members of the joined Dutch, Australian and Malaysian recovery team will return home. Seven coffins with the last human remains will be transported by a C130 next Saturday (Charkov-Eindhoven). The last personal belongings and some 120 m³ of wreckage will be flown over later.

Source - more info (Dutch only at this moment):
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/nieuws/2015 ... einde.html

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 01 May 2015, 15:43

Press release 30/04/2015 from the Dutch government: the recovery mission at the crash site has ended and the 24 members of the joined Dutch, Australian and Malaysian recovery team will return home. Seven coffins with the last human remains will be transported by a C130 next Saturday (Charkov-Eindhoven). The last personal belongings and some 120 m³ of wreckage will be flown over later.

Source - more info (Dutch only at this moment):
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/nieuws/2015 ... einde.html
Press release now also available in English:
http://www.government.nl/news/2015/04/3 ... ended.html

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 12 Jun 2015, 17:38

In Russia, Dutch foreign minister pushes for MH17 prosecution

Dutch Foreign Minister Bert Koenders has discussed with his Russian counterpart efforts to prosecute suspects in the downing of Malaysia Airlines flights MH17, his office said in a statement late on Friday 12 June.

Roughly two-thirds of the 298 victims of the airline disaster on July 17 were Dutch. Suspects have yet to be identified by Dutch prosecutors.

The plane is widely believed to have been shot down with a surface-to-air missile launched by pro-Russian forces in Ukrainian territory, but Moscow denies involvement.

Koenders said Lavrov expressed support for an existing U.N. Security Council resolution which commits the international community to bringing the perpetrators to justice.

A Dutch Safety Board report on the precise cause of the crash is due in October.

The Netherlands is leading an international investigation into the disaster and has vowed to prosecute those responsible. But the case is unprecedented and it will be legally and politically challenging to put foreign suspects on trial.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/06/0 ... LA20150606
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 23 Jun 2015, 23:03

The Netherlands would propose an international tribunal as the best chance for MH17 justice

The Netherlands is discussing with its allies an international tribunal to prosecute those suspected of downing a Malaysian airliner over rebel-held eastern Ukraine last year. The chance of a successful prosecution is considered slim at best but the Dutch still hope that, by pushing for a U.N.-style court with the backing of Western allies, they could pressure Russia, whose role in the process is critical, into cooperating.

Two sources in the Netherlands, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue, said the legal and political complexities of the case had persuaded it to focus on creating an international court backed by the U.N. Security Council, once a multinational investigation finishes and suspects are named.

Other legal options are still being considered, but an international tribunal, rather than a domestic court, is seen as providing the greatest chance of success.

For now, the investigation into the crash continues, and Dutch prosecutors have said they do not expect to issue indictments until after the Dutch Safety Board releases a report in October detailing how the plane was downed.

But the prosecutors have narrowed their focus to the theory that the plane was shot down by a Russian-built BUK surface-to-air missile fired from an area held by pro-Russian forces.

Full exclusive article from Reuters
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 28 Jun 2015, 12:12

The Dutch tv program KRO Reporter announces two broadcasts about MH17. Today Sunday, KRO Reporter will mainly focus on the airspace above Ukrain at that time. ON Tuesday, KRO Reporter will reconstruct the 150 hours after the crash.

Both episods will be available online, few hours after the live broadcast.

Sunday 28th June 2015 : 22h30 - NPO 2
Tuesday 30th June 2015 : 20h25 - NPO 2 (90 minutes)

http://reporter.kro.nl/seizoenen/seizoe ... e-oekraine

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 29 Jun 2015, 11:02

MH17: Investigators obstructed during cell-tower probe

Investigators probing the destruction of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 have been barred from accessing parts of east Ukraine to gather telephone network information.

Teams conducting the criminal inquiry into the crash, in July last year, have spent some two weeks in the area with the support of European security organisation OSCE.

They have been trying to perform technical research into cell towers used by mobile telephones and looking into the communications networks of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

But the Dutch prosecutor’s office says that representatives of the so-called Luhansk People’s Republic – a self-proclaimed breakaway territory – have “refused access” to the area and, as a result, its effort in Luhansk has “not succeeded”.

Full report in FlightGlobal: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... be-414104/
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 03 Jul 2015, 23:21

Dutch seek U.N. tribunal to prosecute downing of Malaysian plane

The Dutch government is lobbying its political allies for the establishment of a U.N. tribunal to prosecute suspects in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane over territory held by pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine a year ago, Prime Minister Mark Rutte said on Friday.

Rutte said a U.N. tribunal would give "the best guarantee of cooperation from all countries" in seeking justice for the families of the 298 victims, most of whom were Dutch passengers aboard flight MH17.

Malaysia, one of five countries on a Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team probing the crash, told the United Nations Security Council on Thursday it plans to push for a U.N.-backed tribunal, even as Russia described the move as premature.

The Netherlands is leading the criminal investigation, which is also assisted by Belgium, Australia and Ukraine. A final report on the cause of the crash is due to be released in October by the Dutch Safety Board.

Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/ ... IF20150703
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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mooney058 » 29 Jul 2015, 23:16

Tribunal is a no go, guess who exercised its veto?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33710088

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 30 Jul 2015, 00:23

mooney058 wrote:Tribunal is a no go, guess who exercised its veto?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33710088
Why that suggestive remark?

1. Russia has already agreed that the culprits (= not to be confused with "the accused") will be brought to justice if they are Russians. Russia indeed has voted in favour of UN Resolution 2166 demanding "Accountability":
http://www.un.org/press/en/2014/sc11483.doc.htm

2. Today's resolution was not about accountability, but about anti-Russian politicians pointing fingers without proof. Russia is kept out of all investigations, so their veto was predictable. Russia is accused day after day, specially by the Dutch government. Most cruel accusation so far: Dutch minister Timmermans showing the U.N. a photo from a pro-Russian rebel who had removed a wedding ring from a victim. Few days later, that photo appeared in a video: it was not a ring and there was no victim nearby. It was an aircraft part. No excuse however from Frans Timmermans. Here's the story with proof:
http://www.gestolengrootmoeder.nl/wordp ... r-de-ramp/

3. Why did the Netherlands and Malaysia wanted this resolution for a criminal investigation now? Russia announced that it would vote against it, so why didn't the Netherlands negociated with Russia for an amended text? The Russian embassador to the U.N. suggested an amendment with Russia accepting a hybrid tribunal if the culprits are Russian (unfortunately, there were no press reports in the Benelux about this Russian proposal). Why didn't the Netherlands negociated with Russia to establish a non-vetoed text? Because the result doesn't matter for the Netherlands: it's the accusation against Russia that matters.

4. Why didn't they wait till October, when the factual report of the Dutch Safety Board will be published? Why didn't they wait till the Dutch Public Prosecutor has finalized his investigation? At least, we then would have a culprit, with prosecution and punishment as logical steps.

5. During the last decades, at least four civilian aircraft have been shot down. There was never ever a call for a U.N. Tribunal. Even Russia didn't asked for a U.N. Tribunal or a U.N. Resolution when Ukrain had shot down its civilian flight Siberia Airlines 1812.

With all facts known so far (and this excludes accusations), it is my opinion that it's one of these three causes:
1. the Boeing was shot down by Ukrain army forces not familiar with the Boeks system.
2. the Boeing was shot down by an air to air missile from an Ukrain fighter aircraft.
3. The Boeing was shot down by Ukrain rebels.

Therefore, suggesting with "guess who exercised its veto" is a confession of guilt is scandalous and shameless towards the victims and their relatives.

But let's not foget the two biggest culprits for this drama: the aviation authorities who had not closed the Eastern Ukrain airspace and the airlines who kept flying above a war zone where Antonovs where shot down with shoulder ground-to-air-missiles.

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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mooney058 » 30 Jul 2015, 12:08

You seem to be a very knowledgeble person, so besides all the pre-cooked jiberish, can you tell me what were the specific problematic provisions in the UN resolution that RU objected to so that there would be no UN led tribunal? RU ambasador said it was simply premature for the tribunal... Do you understand this? I do not.

RU ambsador's statements (http://www.un.org/press/en/2015/sc11990.doc.htm):
The Russian Federation did not support the creation of an international tribunal under Chapter VII, as resolution 2166 (2014) had not considered the downing of the aircraft a threat to international peace and security. Moreover, the experience of the tribunal for the former Yugoslavia had not been useful, as such courts were expensive. When Ukraine had brought down a Russian aircraft and the United States had brought down an Iranian aircraft, international tribunals had not been demanded. On the other hand, where there were threats to international peace and security, such as piracy, the idea of an international tribunal had not enjoyed support in the Council. Efforts to present the draft for a vote, in full knowledge that it would not be adopted, underscored the political motives behind the move. His Government’s position today did not promote impunity.

I can understand some of it, but not all ... Reference to UA and US downing the planes - these were later established who did it, no? Some of the language used in the RU statements resonates in style quite well with your 'facts'.

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