Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

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Flanker2
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Flanker2 » 16 Nov 2014, 14:39


And this seems a good argument to dismiss the photoshopped SU27 missile firing scene:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5437 ... ost8743949
and found this clip that pretty much substantiates this (go to 1:07)
Actually you also don't see a trail in front of the fighter.
Depending on atmospheric conditions and the missile used, you may not see a smoke trail beyond the immediate vicinity of the missile anyway.

Smokeless AAM's are available on the market. India has them for their Flanker fleet.
DIBO wrote:
teach wrote:It's a 767. I'll tell you even more: it's the 767 prototype, in Boeing colours.
this animated photo proves that point very clear I think:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5437 ... ost8743115
I've seen that animation before I made my first post but I didn't get fooled.
So tell me, whom was the animation made by? A Group of self-declared debunkers who would go all the way to show that this is fake?
It's not because it has a B767 paint job that it's a B767!

Ever heard of "the eye sees what it wants to see"?
Here's an exercise for you. Try to discern which one's the B767 and which one's the B777.
Don't cheat!

Image

You will immediately learn to see everything that's wrong with the animation you provided.
(BTW, don't be fooled by the markings that are on the above picture!)


Look at the wingspan. That's definitely a B777 wing there.
Also look at the cockpit windows. The B777 has this typical cockpit window structure that hides its windows if seen from above.

The left inboard aileron was drawn to give it the shape of the B767 aileron. On the original image it's not that clear.
As for the white markings on the wing extrado's root. Well it's really drawn, because it could just have been the reflection of the sun situated South-West at the time.

It doesn't take much to fool people.

If this was real evidence, the reactions we see would exactly be what we see now.
Wrong assumptions over wrong assumptions.

I'm not saying that it's real yet; it does however look possible.


And sorry, I still don't see the cloud. Please make the effort to put it in a visible way instead of saying it's Southeast of the runway. I just don't see it.
Even if it's there, who's to say that it wasn't planted on the 2012 version of the Google maps? After all, this debunking is being organised by intelligence agencies, and they have access to whatever they want from any U.S. company.

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 16 Nov 2014, 15:14

Flanker2 wrote:
I've seen that animation before I made my first post but I didn't get fooled.
So tell me, whom was the animation made by? A Group of self-declared debunkers who would go all the way to show that this is fake?
It's not because it has a B767 paint job that it's a B767!
Good to see you at least admitting it's not a Malaysia paintjob. We could stop the discussion right there, because that alone proves the picture is false. But this is too much fun.

Oh, and it's a 767. It was pretty much the first thing I saw when looking at that picture, well before I had seen the article on bellingcat.
Also look at the cockpit windows. The B777 has this typical cockpit window structure that hides its windows if seen from above.
The cockpit windows of the 777 are 100% identical to those of the 767. That's because the nose (known as section 41) of the 767 was simply copied onto the 777. Feel free to look that up.

Oh, and in that 'exercise' it's very easy for anyone with a passing knowledge of commercial aircraft to see that pictures were switched. You know what gives it way the most easily? The taper of the nose right behind the cockpit windows / section 41. On the 777 it continues for a bit, to accommodate the noticeably wider fuselage, while on the 767 it stops much sooner. This is also evident on the Russian spoof picture you're trying to defend. That's a 767, no doubt in my mind.
It doesn't take much to fool people.
Yes, you're living proof of that.
And sorry, I still don't see the cloud. Please make the effort to put it in a visible way instead of saying it's Southeast of the runway. I just don't see it.
You missed two words there. Here, I'll correct it for you:
And sorry, I still don't see the cloud. Please make the effort to put it in a visible way instead of saying it's Southeast of the runway. I just don't want to see it
...because you're literally the only one not seeing that cloud.
Even if it's there, who's to say that it wasn't planted on the 2012 version of the Google maps? After all, this debunking is being organised by intelligence agencies, and they have access to whatever they want from any U.S. company.
Oh God, tin foil hat territory? Really?

Do you have any idea just how much of a fool you're making yourself out to be by trying to pass this picture off as real? It's pretty clear you're doing this because you have an agenda to push, but at least pick fights you can win.

Flanker2
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Flanker2 » 16 Nov 2014, 15:53

teach wrote:
Flanker2 wrote:
I've seen that animation before I made my first post but I didn't get fooled.
So tell me, whom was the animation made by? A Group of self-declared debunkers who would go all the way to show that this is fake?
It's not because it has a B767 paint job that it's a B767!
Good to see you at least admitting it's not a Malaysia paintjob. We could stop the discussion right there, because that alone proves the picture is false. But this is too much fun.
Nice attempt to put words in my mouth.


Oh, and it's a 767. It was pretty much the first thing I saw when looking at that picture, well before I had seen the article on bellingcat.
Also look at the cockpit windows. The B777 has this typical cockpit window structure that hides its windows if seen from above.
The cockpit windows of the 777 are 100% identical to those of the 767. That's because the nose (known as section 41) of the 767 was simply copied onto the 777. Feel free to look that up.
It's the same section 41 until just beyond the side-windows. From there it looks totally differently, which is why it looks as though the windows are hidden when you look from atop at an angle on the B777. On the B767, it looks like a dolphin-nose, exposing the windows' structure more.


Oh, and in that 'exercise' it's very easy for anyone with a passing knowledge of commercial aircraft to see that pictures were switched. You know what gives it way the most easily? The taper of the nose right behind the cockpit windows / section 41. On the 777 it continues for a bit, to accommodate the noticeably wider fuselage, while on the 767 it stops much sooner. This is also evident on the Russian spoof picture you're trying to defend. That's a 767, no doubt in my mind.
It doesn't take much to fool people.
You are dreaming that taper. There is no such thing visible on the Russian pictures.
And I can guarantee you I have more commercial aircraft knowledge than you can ever dream to have.
And sorry, I still don't see the cloud. Please make the effort to put it in a visible way instead of saying it's Southeast of the runway. I just don't see it.
You missed two words there. Here, I'll correct it for you:
And sorry, I still don't see the cloud. Please make the effort to put it in a visible way instead of saying it's Southeast of the runway. I just don't want to see it
...because you're literally the only one not seeing that cloud.
So where is it? Which cloud are you refering to?[/quote]


I think that you are fooled if you think that Russia would ridiculise themselves by putting a fake satellite image. That's not what they do.

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 16 Nov 2014, 18:43

Flanker2 wrote: Nice attempt to put words in my mouth.
I'm not. You didn't even argue with the idea that the plane has Boeing colors. That should pretty much end the discussion right there.

It's the same section 41 until just beyond the side-windows. From there it looks totally differently, which is why it looks as though the windows are hidden when you look from atop at an angle on the B777. On the B767, it looks like a dolphin-nose, exposing the windows' structure more.
It's a 767.
You are dreaming that taper. There is no such thing visible on the Russian pictures.
Exactly! Let it sink in. Take your time now...
And I can guarantee you I have more commercial aircraft knowledge than you can ever dream to have.
Good for you! It's a 767. You've pretty much just confirmed it yourself.
So where is it? Which cloud are you refering to?
I'm beginning to suspect you're doing this on purpose. Once again: first small fluffy cloud you come across southeast of Donetsk Airport, just north of the big cloud formation. If you still can't see that, you're either not looking, or you need to get your eyes checked. I suspect it's the former. Once again, the photo: http://slon.ru/images2/2014/11-14/boeing_1tv_hr.jpg
I think that you are fooled if you think that Russia would ridiculise themselves by putting a fake satellite image. That's not what they do.
And yet, that's exactly what happened. More than likely, the Russian TV station that broadcast this got fooled by a hoaxer, and didn't bother to check the picture thoroughly in their enthusiasm to get the 'smoking gun', because they too would've seen it's a fake.

You know what's funny? On other boards, even the staunchest Russia-supporters aren't touching this one with a ten foot pole because they realise it's a fake. The Russians themselves aren't even mentioning this anywhere. Kind of strange, because if true this would be front-page news all around the world, and absolute solid proof that the plane was not shot down by the rebels. It'd be the biggest smoking gun since the term was invented. Caught red-handed, with a photo as proof.

...and yet, the Russians remain silent. You want to know why? Because they also see the picture's a fake. You're pretty much the only one who still doesn't.

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RoMax
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by RoMax » 16 Nov 2014, 19:08

teach wrote:The Russians themselves aren't even mentioning this anywhere. Kind of strange, because if true this would be front-page news all around the world, and absolute solid proof that the plane was not shot down by the rebels. It'd be the biggest smoking gun since the term was invented. Caught red-handed, with a photo as proof.
It might not be front-page news, but for sure it's all around the world...as one of the largest recent Russian fails. :mrgreen:

No seriously, I don't know what Flanker tries to prove, but the way he describes the difference between the 767 and 777, he actually says himself its a 767 because you can see the cockpit windows in exactly the same ways as on that top view of the 767 prototype, with the only difference that the picture is made less clear. But from that angle both the 777 and 767 windows are visible anyway, but if he tries to prove that way that it's indeed a 767 (yes he tries to prove it's a 777, but he fails...hard), that's his problem.
But the cockpit windows are probably the worst example of how to prove if these satellite images are real or not. There are much more obvious elements that show it's a huge, big, embarrassing fail. Something they also realise in Russia as Teach said (problem is noone realised before spreading it).

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 16 Nov 2014, 20:04

Little update: the infamous George Bilt (the one who the Russians claimed had provided them with the image) has come forward, and he's NOT happy:
KIEV, Ukraine — The man whose email was used as proof that Ukraine shot down MH17 told BuzzFeed News that he had found the image on a forum and was upset that it had been used so widely on Russian TV.

George Bilt—who said he is an MIT graduate and aviation expert with 26 years experience, but would not provide further biographical details—said that he had come across an earlier report by the Russian Union of Engineers (RUE) blaming a Ukrainian fighter jet for the crash, and thought that it concurred with his own amateur findings. When he saw the picture online, Bilt wrote to Andreyevsky, the “expert” from the broadcast, with a link to the forum where the image was posted, clearly stating that he had found it there.

“I had no knowledge or means of proving and researching if this was an authentic satellite photo or not (it was clearly available online since mid October – not really such a new discovery too),” Bilt said. “RUE seemed to possess such research means and resources. I do not know if this was my mistake in evaluation.”

Bilt said that he was shocked to see his email, which he thought that he had written to Andreyevsky in confidence, used on Russian TV as proof of the Kremlin’s claims, citing him as a source. “I am quite unhappy that my bona fide informal attempt possibly became a source of yet another battle in a media war,” he said. “This was definitely not my intention. I am also not looking for a cheap fame. This tragedy is simply too awful to gain from it.

“I am sorry for all those people I might have indirectly and unintentionally misled or disappointed by this unexpected mess in anyway,” Bilt added. “Personally and professionally, I will not continue with this amateurish investigation effort due to the rather insane highly confrontational situation prone to escalation and with the elements of media war.

“Those folks are either desperate or totally unprofessional,” he said.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/russi ... e-shot-dow
So now even the guy who gave them the picture calls them idiots. That really leaves just you, flanker2...

Oh, and in case you still haven't 'found' the infamous cloud, it's been put in a nice red square for you in one of the facebook screens in that link.

mooney058
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mooney058 » 16 Nov 2014, 23:50

8-) Flanker, How much is it for a post? 8-)

SwissCharm
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by SwissCharm » 17 Nov 2014, 03:12

Flanker2 wrote:Please check my attached analysis. I correct my previous calculation with a detailed, but simple calculation.
The perceived size of the aircraft is only one of the many factors.

If you have a satellite at a 1100km orbit that zooms in 100 times, an aircraft at 11km will appear at its live size.

Image

http://oi58.tinypic.com/ab5sab.jpg
Flanker's "simplistic calculations" seem flawed. Using Flanker's figures and even more simplistic calculations, using nothing more than similar triangles, we arrive at the equation x/2700 = (x-11000)/64 for the height x of the satellite's orbit, showing that this curious satellite would have flown just a few hundred meters above the B777. (Zooming and lens geometry are irrelevant for this computation).

mooney058
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mooney058 » 17 Nov 2014, 11:33

Flanker must be right simply because russian First Channel presented the same 'evidence'... I understand ru authorities target domestic population that does not have access to alternative info channels, but would you, flanker, think this work on people with critical minds?
On the side note, Im very worried on the way ru media portray all this and UA story in general.... it looks like ru media/state authorities prepare their population for war ...

Flanker2
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Flanker2 » 17 Nov 2014, 15:57

Since there are so many people claiming that it's a B762 (or any type of B767) thanks to their oh-so good aviation knowledge blablabla, I've made a comprehensible measurement so that even a monkey can see that it's a B772.

Image
http://oi61.tinypic.com/f2q6ht.jpg

252 over 265.1 are about the same proportions as the published wingspan over length of the
B772: 60.9 over 63.7

Measured on picture: 252/265.1=0.9505 or 95.05%
Real 60.9/63.7=0.9560 or 95.60%

On the B762, the real proportions are 47.6(wingspan)/48.5(length)=0.9814 or 98.14%.

This is what the wingspan needs to look like for the B762, for the measured length.
It's a small difference but the difference between a B762 and a B772.

Image

As for the rumored Russian picture of the B767 house colors top view, it looks like it was on a Russian website hosting pictures, where it doesn't belong and what's the purpose of picturing an image of a B767 from that angle? And why exactly in Boeing house colors, so everybody can recognise it?
If you ask me, the fabricated image is the one of the B762 in house colors and it was planted by intelligence operatives to discredit this evidence. IF you think that they wouldn't do that, you have no idea how they operate.

And obviously Mooney is here again, since this seems to be the only topic he monitors. He's probably one of Langley's low-level aviation blog monitor. You couldn't choose a more typical American GA nut-name.

As for the titles on the picture, given the sun's position at the time and the glare on the wing root, if you look closely you can see that the titles start more to the left but are probably glared out.

On the real B762 in house colors, the titles also started over the wing:
Image
Image
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/ch13-6.htm

So which one is the fake now?
Clearly this one:
Image

mooney058
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by mooney058 » 17 Nov 2014, 16:27

Flanker2, never been to America, but I'm fluent in Russian language, born in Soviet Union.

Flanker, the ideas you push forward are yours or you 'borrow' them from somewhere? Why is this 'somewhere' resemble so much the trusted sources of RU 'free media'?

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 17 Nov 2014, 17:05

Flanker2 wrote:Since there are so many people claiming that it's a B762 (or any type of B767) thanks to their oh-so good aviation knowledge blablabla, I've made a comprehensible measurement so that even a monkey can see that it's a B772.
It's a 767. You realise that in the original picture, part of one wing is cut off, and that the picture wasn't taken exactly from the top, meaning your 'brilliant' calculations aren't really uselful, right? Of course you do. That alone is more than enough to make up for the tiny discrepancy.
As for the rumored Russian picture of the B767 house colors top view, it looks like it was on a Russian website hosting pictures, where it doesn't belong and what's the purpose of picturing an image of a B767 from that angle? And why exactly in Boeing house colors, so everybody can recognise it?
If you ask me, the fabricated image is the one of the B762 in house colors and it was planted by intelligence operatives to discredit this evidence. IF you think that they wouldn't do that, you have no idea how they operate.
Oh brother, tinfoil hat territory again :lol: . How exactly do you still expect to be taken seriously?
As for the titles on the picture, given the sun's position at the time and the glare on the wing root, if you look closely you can see that the titles start more to the left but are probably glared out.
No they don't.
On the real B762 in house colors, the titles also started over the wing:
Image
Image
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-468/ch13-6.htm

So which one is the fake now?
Clearly this one:
Image
The titles are in exactly the same place in all those pictures. And you can see that too. You've just decided to not accept it, as it doesn't fit your agenda.

Part of me wants to put you on the ignore list, just so I don't have to read the deluded tripe you write anymore, but at the same time it's terribly fun to watch the train wrecks you post here on a regular basis.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 17 Nov 2014, 17:41

I will not intervene myself in that discussion, but I would like to relay the opinion of the aviation specialist of the Wall Street Journal: "This is a 767-200, not a 777 as Russia says. Horizontal stabilizer is too big".
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 17 Nov 2014, 17:43

The only source for this weekend rumour is one item on Russia’s 1TV. Apparently a journo there received a “satellite photo” from a source he thaught was reliable. It wasn’t. The photoshopped photo and the story behind it have not been produced as truth by the Russian government (Kremlin.ru). Russia Today, focussing on media coverage about Russias in the west, doesn’t seems to have copied it either.

Therefore, it’s just what it is: an untrue story. Could be voluntary misleading, could be an unvoluntary error. We'll never know, unless the journo from 1tv.ru gives his source. But then - the Nato and the European Union have spread so many lies in the past months about MH17 that this story is negligible.

Are stories from Belgium's 100% state networks VRT and/or RTBf “official news from Belgium"? If not, let's no do that for Russian state networks either please.

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Flanker2 » 17 Nov 2014, 18:27

I will not intervene myself in that discussion, but I would like to relay the opinion of the aviation specialist of the Wall Street Journal: "This is a 767-200, not a 777 as Russia says. Horizontal stabilizer is too big".
You mean Jon Ostrower? He's not a specialist of anything.
He's just an aviation blogger promoted to journalist, because he had an inside guy at Boeing reporting to him about the B787. If you've seen any of his video reportings, you would quickly realise he's a blogger, not a journalist.

I though I'd make that clear.


If the B767 house colors pic wasn't taken from the Russian pictures website, where was it taken from? What's the original source?
I've never seen any material showing a picture of an aircraft at that angle. It just doesn't make sense.
What would you use it for?
The B and O on the original B762 photo's of NASA actually overlap the wing. Everyone can see it.
The B767 rendering is thus a bad reproduction of that image.

The B767's horizontal stabilisers aren't bigger than the B777's tailplane by the way. It's much smaller.
It's only bigger on that fake rendering of the B767.

It's actually a good idea. I'll make a comparative Gimp measurement of the span of the h. stabilisers on the picture and post the result here.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 17 Nov 2014, 18:41, edited 1 time in total.

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 17 Nov 2014, 18:30

sn26567 wrote:I will not intervene myself in that discussion, but I would like to relay the opinion of the aviation specialist of the Wall Street Journal: "This is a 767-200, not a 777 as Russia says. Horizontal stabilizer is too big".
That is indeed another dead giveaway. While the wing and general proportions of the 762 and 772 are similar to the untrained eye, the vertical stabilizer on the 767 looks clearly different from that on the 777, with a root chord that is proportionately larger than the tip chord on the 767 compared to the 777. This picture has the distinctive 767 stabilizer.

But Flanker2 will find a way around that, no doubt.

Edit: seems he already has. If you can't discredit the message, go for the messenger...

teach
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by teach » 17 Nov 2014, 19:45

Flanker2 wrote: If the B767 house colors pic wasn't taken from the Russian pictures website, where was it taken from? What's the original source?
How on earth is that even important? There are literally dozens of pictures of the 767 prototype on the net that are not on Boeing's site, including promotional ones. Are you seriously suggesting they were all planted by the CIA?
I've never seen any material showing a picture of an aircraft at that angle. It just doesn't make sense.
What would you use it for?
Well now you have, straight from the horse's mouth:
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/companyoff ... 00-01.page

It's right there on Boeing's bloody website. But wait, the CIA planted it there, and Boeing's 'in on it' too, right? Is TinEye in on it too then? Because they indicate the picture's been there since at least 2009 https://www.tineye.com/search/e1dfab4f8 ... aced4ea8c/

You're welcome.
The B and O on the original B762 photo's of NASA actually overlap the wing. Everyone can see it.
As they do in the promotional Boeing pic. They're in the exact same spot.
The B767 rendering is thus a bad reproduction of that image.
Go ahead. Tell Boeing how they faked their own plane: http://www.boeing.com/boeing/contactus.page
The B767's horizontal stabilisers aren't bigger than the B777's tailplane by the way. It's much smaller.
It's only bigger on that fake rendering of the B767.
LOL! The fake rendering. Yeah...
It's actually a good idea. I'll make a comparative Gimp measurement of the span of the h. stabilisers on the picture and post the result here.
Make sure you measure both the root and tip chord of both too. Because that's where the main difference lies. Have fun!

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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 23 Nov 2014, 17:10

On Nov 23rd 2014 the DSB announced, that a recovery operation to retrieve (most of) the wreckage has been completed, 12 rail cars with wreckage of MH-17 are on their way to Kharkiv, from where the further transport to the Netherlands is being organized.

A few parts of wreckage, too large to be transported by railway, have been trucked to Kharkiv.

The DSB added: "Although this recovery operation has ended, there is still wreckage left at the crashsite. Mostly smaller pieces of wreckage with no value for the investigation. Local services will remove those pieces of wreckage from the crashsite, as the recoveryteam agreed upon."

Source: The Aviation Herald, http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d/010&opt=0
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Re: Malaysia B772 AMS-KUL flight crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by Passenger » 24 Nov 2014, 23:01

sn26567 wrote:On Nov 23rd 2014 the DSB announced, that a recovery operation to retrieve (most of) the wreckage has been completed, 12 rail cars with wreckage of MH-17 are on their way to Kharkiv, from where the further transport to the Netherlands is being organized.

A few parts of wreckage, too large to be transported by railway, have been trucked to Kharkiv.

The DSB added: "Although this recovery operation has ended, there is still wreckage left at the crashsite. Mostly smaller pieces of wreckage with no value for the investigation. Local services will remove those pieces of wreckage from the crashsite, as the recoveryteam agreed upon."

Source: The Aviation Herald, http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d/010&opt=0
The Dutch Safety Board has put some photos of their recovery into a 1 minute YouTube:


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Re: Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL crashed near Donetsk, Ukraine

Post by sn26567 » 27 Nov 2014, 23:28

Malaysia has expressed concern over the actually “unilateral action” taken by the Netherlands whose officials have announced the completion of the collection of the fragments of the Boeing plane (Flight MH17) that crashed in Ukraine.

Malaysian representatives insisted on their mandatory participation in the work at the crash site, including the study and removal of the airliner wreckage and now it is unknown in which condition they will take to the expert examination. Also, Malaysia has still not been given an opportunity to participate in the criminal investigation, contrary to the promise given by Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte in Kuala Lumpur on November 5.

Malaysia believes that due to its neutral position on the conclusions concerning the causes of the catastrophe, as well as owing to the fact that it put forward no accusations, a number of countries participating in the investigation are doing everything possible not to admit Malaysian representatives to the full-fledged investigation.

Full article: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/761484
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