Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[Flanker2]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2311 ... H17__.html

Dutch article:
AWACs has received signals from a SA-3 system. So not a BUK system.
SA-3 is not more in use of Russia.
The Ukrainian company Aerotechnica , based in Kiev, manufactures an updated version of this SAM.
http://www.aerotechnica.ua/en/index.php ... 5&prodid=7

Why isn't this on CNN, BBC, etc...?
Also, why is Germany releasing this information from NATO only now?
If true, this is shaping up to be the biggest scandal of the century.

[Passenger]

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2311 ... H17__.html

Dutch article:
AWACs has received signals from a SA-3 system. So not a BUK system.
SA-3 is not more in use of Russia.
The Ukrainian company Aerotechnica , based in Kiev, manufactures an updated version of this SAM.
http://www.aerotechnica.ua/en/index.php ... 5&prodid=7

...
Also, why is Germany releasing this information from NATO only now?
...

As per the Chicago Convention, only the leading investigation board (= the Dutch Safety Board) may release facts, related to the crash.

https://presse.wdr.de/plounge/wdr/progr ... _mh17.html

[Passenger]

Statement from the Dutch Department of Justice: so far, 251 victims have been identified:

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/ministeries ... ceerd.html

- - -

Meanwhile, the Malaysian government urges the United Nations to take firm action because it's clear that the Ukrain government is unable to make the crash site safely accessible for rescue workers and investigators. "No U.N. resolutions anymore - do something please", Malaysia asks:

http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/mala ... ow-bernama

[Passenger]

Funeral of three Belgian victims in Brasschaat (near Antwerp):
http://www.gva.be/cnt/dmf20141009_01311 ... h-oekraine

[sn26567]

Dutch minister says passenger 'wore oxygen mask'

Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans has said that one of the 298 people killed in the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine was found wearing an oxygen mask. He indicated that not everybody on board had died instantly when the plane was hit by a missile.

The Dutch public prosecutor has confirmed that an oxygen mask was found, although a spokesman said it was around the passenger's neck rather than their mouth. It had been secured with elastic and has been tested for DNA and fingerprints.

Although 196 of the passengers were Dutch, the passenger with the oxygen mask was not, the prosecutor said on Thursday. Dutch media said the victim in question was an Australian and the family had been informed about the development.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29548942

[Passenger]

Update 13/10/2014 from the Dutch Safety Board:

http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/onderzo ... estigation

"...On 23 July 2014 the Dutch Safety Board took charge of the international investigation into the cause of the crash of flight MH17. This was carried out at the request of Ukraine and in consultation with ICAO. Under Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation the State where the aircraft accident occurred may delegate the investigation to another relevant State by mutual arrangement and consent. To this end agreements were set out in a Memorandum of Understanding between the two countries, and in an agreement (*) between the Ukrainian National Bureau of Incidents and Accidents Investigation of Civil Aircraft (NBAAII) and the Dutch Safety Board. In the Netherlands, the Dutch Safety Board is the designated independent organisation that conducts investigations into aircraft accidents and incidents.

Since 23 July the Dutch Safety Board has been leading an international team of aircraft accident investigators in which representatives from Malaysia, Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, the United States of America, Australia and the Netherlands are represented. The Dutch Safety Board is acting in accordance with Annex 13 to the Convention, and as per Resolution 2166 of the UN Security Council which called for an independent, international investigation into the cause of the crash of flight MH17.

The Dutch Safety Board published its preliminary report on 9 September 2014. As a result of the preliminary report, ICAO expressed its full support to the international team of investigators pending the final report..."

(*) link to this agreement:
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/fm ... ebsite.pdf

[sn26567]

German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.

After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.

Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.

Source: Der Spiegel

[Passenger]

German Intelligence Claims Pro-Russian Separatists Downed MH17

Germany's foreign intelligence agency says its review of the crash of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Ukrainian has concluded it was brought down by a missile fired by pro-Russian separatists near Donetsk.

After completing a detailed analysis, Germany's foreign intelligence service, the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), has concluded that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the crash of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 on July 19 in eastern Ukraine while on route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

In an Oct. 8 presentation given to members of the parliamentary control committee, the Bundestag body responsible for monitoring the work of German intelligence, BND President Gerhard Schindler provided ample evidence to back up his case, including satellite images and diverse photo evidence. The BND has intelligence indicating that pro-Russian separatists captured a BUK air defense missile system at a Ukrainian military base and fired a missile on July 17 that exploded in direct proximity to the Malaysian aircraft, which had been carrying 298 people.

Unambiguous Findings

Evidence obtained shortly after the accident suggested the aircraft had been shot down by pro-Russian militants. Both the governments of Russia and Ukraine had mutually accused each other of responsibility for the crash. After a Dutch investigative commission reviewed the flight recorder, it avoided placing any blame for the crash. Some 189 residents of the Netherlands perished in the downing of Flight MH17.

BND's Schindler says his agency has come up with unambiguous findings. One is that Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and that there are details indicating this. He also told the panel that Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false.

"It was pro-Russian separatists," Schindler said of the crash, which involved the deaths of four German citizens. A spokesman for the German Federal Prosecutor's Office told SPIEGEL that an investigation has been opened into unknown perpetrators because of the possibility that the crash had been a war crime.

Source: Der Spiegel

quote BND: "...Ukrainian photos have been manipulated and there are details indicating this..."

remark: actually, Ukrain never had photo's because they don't have own satellites. The Ukrain photo's were in fact American photos, provided by the US (CIA, White House, Foreign Department). Anyway: it is very very remarkable that the German spionage service today says that the American proof of "Russian involvement" (copy/pasted by the European Union and ALL European media and aviation forums) was falsified, but that the new German proofs are true. Let's hope the two other German intelligence services don't come up with their own truth.

quote BND: "... Russian claims the missile had been fired by Ukrainian soldiers and that a Ukrainian fighter jet had been flying close to the passenger jet were false..."

remark : that was not a Russian claim: it was a Spanish ATC who posted the proof of the Ukranian fighter jet on his Twitter account. The tweets were removed quite quickly, but had been retweeted before that.

[mooney058]

Passanger - your remarks are BS. I speak fluent RU, and go to RU websites to 'entertain' myself thus could witness myself RU 'facts' and RU propoganda did 'find' an expert explaining of where and how UA jets were flying. Are you a consipracy theries kind of guy? Good luck with your life

[regi]

what a twisted story:
the messages from the past were
regular Russian troops brought in BUK systems. Prove: the specific pronunciation of Russian words of personnel + pictures ( arriving,installing removal).
Ukrainian rebels did not have the knowledge and technical back up to handle a BUK system.
Ukraine did not have a BUK system active in the neighbourhood.

and probably 10,000 other statements to put the blame in the Kremlin.

According the Germans, it are now Ukrainian rebels who have shot down the airliner with a stolen BUK system. The report doesn't say from which website they got the manual
The report also doesn't provide the proof of this. It just says that... the airliner was shot down with a Ukrainian BUK system.
Hold on a second...did I not bring this up as one of the many options? Am I German now

Btw : still no report about the form/metallurgy of the shrapnell that perforated the airliner. By this , they can say in 1 second which system it was. Even if it was a BUK. According to a source , the warheads of the Russian BUK's would be different than the Ukrainian ones. By not releasing this info, the west avoids that the Russians simply say " bollocks, the shrapnell is of Ukrainian manufacturing"

Reality? Ukraine lost the momentum to get the job done before winter - as I predicted.
Harsh cold moments lay ahead for the millions of people in Ukraine. And the cold will be felt even in Italy.

[Passenger]

Passanger - your remarks are BS. I speak fluent RU, and go to RU websites to 'entertain' myself thus could witness myself RU 'facts' and RU propoganda did 'find' an expert explaining of where and how UA jets were flying.

It's not the first time Ukrainian airforce has made such a deadly mistake:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Ai ... light_1812

anyway, here is just one link to those tweets:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/07/18/spani ... eing-mh17/

But then - suppose that the Ukrain rebels indeed had stolen a Buks rocket launcher (including transport truck, radar vehicle and commando vehicle). That must have been reported in the daily briefings from the chief of staff with Poroshenko. But then, why didn't Ukrain immediately closed it airspace? Why didn't they advised IATA and ICAO that airspace above Eastern Ukrain was unsafe now, also above 8kms? The answer on those questions is indeed BS bloody simple: because the rebels had not "stolen" any Buks launcher.

(edited -> typo)

[sn26567]

Dutch prosecutors investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believe the aircraft might have been shot down from the air but that a ground-to-air missile attack is more likely.

In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby.

An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down.

Dutch authorities leading the international investigation of the crash have come under fierce criticism in the Netherlands in recent weeks from relatives of victims and lawmakers who say not enough progress has been made in identifying the perpetrators.

Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/ ... X420141027

[Passenger]

Dutch prosecutors investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believe the aircraft might have been shot down from the air but that a ground-to-air missile attack is more likely. In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby. An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down. Dutch authorities leading the international investigation of the crash have come under fierce criticism in the Netherlands in recent weeks from relatives of victims and lawmakers who say not enough progress has been made in identifying the perpetrators.

Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/ ... X420141027

This is the original interview (in German) from Der Spiegel with the Dutch leading prosecutor:
http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/m ... 99193.html

[sn26567]

Malaysia PM vows to bring MH17 culprits to justice

Prime Minister Najib Razak on Tuesday vowed to bring to justice the perpetrators of the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17, but said he feared fighting in Ukraine might block access to the crash site.

CRITICISM

A report by the Dutch safety board said in September that MH17 crashed after a "large number of high-energy objects" penetrated its fuselage.

Dutch authorities leading the investigation of the crash have come under criticism in the Netherlands from relatives of victims and lawmakers, who say not enough progress has been made in identifying who downed the plane. Officials say cold weather and continuing hostilities are making progress slow.

"Factions are still fighting each other and there are too many splinter groups, making it very risky for us ... we cannot get access to the crash site and that is very frustrating," Razak said. "I don't think what we're doing is adequate enough."

Local emergency services made a start in October, recovering personal belongings from the crash site, after Razak personally negotiated a deal with the rebels to allow access to the bodies of passengers.

He said the bodies of all but one passenger had been secured now.

Read the full article from Reuters, which also reports about Razak's comments on the search for MH370: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/ ... S320141028

[Passenger]

Tonight in "Nieuwsuur" - Dutch public broadcast (NED2, 22h00): "Were we too prudent in our investigation?"

The Dutch Safety Board leads the investigation into the cause of the crash, and Ukrain now critizes the Netherlands for showing up far too late at the crash venue. Ukrain says that no-one has forbitten The Netherlands to negociate with the rebels to gain access.

http://nieuwsuur.nl/onderwerp/715448-wa ... -mh17.html

[Passenger]

Press release Dutch government:

The Dutch repat team was at the crash site today. They have (again) found human remains that will be transported via Charkov to Eindhoven, with the same protocol as previous body transports.

Some personal belongings were also recovered and will be handed over to the relatives.

Short press release (NL only):
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/ministeries ... -mh17.html

[sn26567]

Dutch PM says thorough, independent probe needed for downed Flight MH17

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte on Wednesday stressed the importance of a thorough, independent investigation of the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 before any decision on where those responsible should face trial.

The Dutch have the lead role in investigating the downing of the Boeing 777 aircraft, which crashed over rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine in July with the loss of all 298 people aboard, two thirds of them Dutch.

With the crash site too dangerous to access due to fighting, they have been relying mostly on publicly available information to carry out a remote investigation.

"What we now have to do is through the independent safety boards to exactly understand what happened and the public prosecutors have to work on the prosecution which follows from this," Rutte said, when asked if the International Criminal Court was the right venue for any trial.

"Then it has to be decided at what court it should take place. As we see things now, it is not most likely that the International Criminal Court is most suited to this."

Rutte was on a one-day visit to Kuala Lumpur to meet his Malaysian counterpart, Najib Razak. Rutte flew from Amsterdam on Flight MH19, re-named from MH17 after the disaster.

Dutch authorities were able to reach the site of the crash for the first time in weeks on Oct 31, as the fighting between government forces and pro-Russian rebels took a pause, Rutte said earlier.

Officials say cold weather and continuing hostilities are making progress slow.

Najib said Malaysia was expected to be a full member of the investigation team.

Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/ ... JW20141105

[Passenger]

Dutch PM says thorough, independent probe needed for downed Flight MH17
...
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte on Wednesday stressed the importance of a thorough, independent investigation of the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 before any decision on where those responsible should face trial.
...
Full article from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/ ... JW20141105

Reuters remains very polite towards the Dutch government. Malaysia didn’t. Prime minister Rutte didn’t went to Malaysia for a friendly visit: he had to. There are more and more outspoken critics in The Netherlands and in Malaysia about the way both investigations are done (one by The Dutch Safety Board, one by the Dutch Public Prosecutor).

Last week, the Dutch news program Nieuwsuur (NOS tv) showed a letter that the Malaysian Ambassador in The Netherlands recently wrote to the Dutch government, expressing his angry about the two investigations.

For the investigation into the cause of the crash, Malaysia is angry because the Dutch authorities have refused to talk direct to the Ukrain rebels to negociate with them about visits to the crash site. Malaysia negociated with the rebels after a few days, with immediate result: the rebels handed over the two black boxes to Malaysia. OK, Malaysia had to sign an official document with the self declared independent state Logansk, but Malaysia can live with that: they now say “it has the value of the paper on which it’s written”. The Dutch government refused to negociate with the rebels because the Dutch minister of Foreign Affairs at the time of the crash, Frans Timmermans, was the government’s candidate as Commissioner in the new-to-be-formed European Commission. To promote his campaign within Europe, he accused the anti-Kiev rebels that they shot down MH17. Nieuwsuur (NOS tv) doesn’t say that Timmermans had forbitten any Dutch authority to negociate with the rebels, but it’s obvious, I guess.

The second reason why Malaysia is angry, is because they are kept out of the criminal investigation by the Dutch Public Prosecutor. “43 Malaysian citizens have been killed, and Malaysia has to find out details about the criminal investigation in the press”, the Ambassador says. The reason why Malaysia is kept out by the Dutch is because Malaysia has the death penalty for murder - and Dutch law forbits legal services to collaborate with such countries for cases that could implement the death penalty.

Nieuwsuur.nl about the angry letter of the Malaysian Ambassador: see as from time 13min00:
http://nieuwsuur.nl/video/715597-was-ne ... -mh17.html

[Flanker2]

We all knew this would happen. It was better if ICAO appointed a more neutral state in this investigation, such as the JTSB or at worse, the BEA or even Canada. The Dutch are sabotaging this investigation and are acting as if they were trying to cover their friend's tracks.

"We can't go there", "we can't investigate" are merely excuses when even the families of the victims were on the spot.

The Germans are saying the BUK missile system was Ukrainian.

We don't need to know more I think. The Ukrainians did it.
Rests to be seen who gave the order: the Ukrainian government, rogue military, private interests or too much Vodka.

But I'm glad that Malaysia as a government is pissed off. At least someone is acting responsibly.

If it was indeed Russia, I don't expect Putin to hide in a shadow, especially with the risk that evidence could implicate Russia. He's too big a man to do that.
He's a man who'd rather say it to your face than face humiliation of being caught in a lie.

[sn26567]

The Ukrainians did it.
Rests to be seen who gave the order: the Ukrainian government, rogue military, private interests or too much Vodka.

You forgot the pro-Russian separatists in your list. And I'm sure that there is a way to determine who exactly committed the mass murder, it's only a question of political will.