RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

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airazurxtror
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RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by airazurxtror » 13 May 2014, 09:11

http://www.lalibre.be/economie/actualit ... 05d691853f

Extract (Google translation)

After attacking Belgium for its plan to help national companies, Ryanair is now called before the Commercial Court of Brussels by the latter who accuse him of "unfair competition" . The consequences could be severe for the company Michael O'Leary : If Justice gives reason to Belgian companies , Ryanair could be banned from flying from Brussels Airport National. The exchange of conclusions will begin in the coming days, but the argument will only take place on September 3 at the Commercial Court of Brussels.

In fact , the complaint comes from BATA (Belgian Air Transport Association) which includes major companies in Belgium ( Brussels Airlines, Jetairfly , Thomas Cook Belgium ) . It all started with the arrival of the Irish low cost airline at the airport of Brussels -National in February. This came was badly perceived by the Belgian carriers at Zaventem, who promptly denounced " unfair competition " from Ryanair. A common complaint was filed in stride.

"I do not want to debate in the press since the case is sensitive and it is the court to decide , says Filip Tilleman , plaintiffs' counsel But our view is very simple . While working in Belgium when engaging people in Belgium, we must respect the right Belgian labor . This is not because we have a head office in another country that can afford to be above the law. Ryanair is not above the law. "

Belgian companies have thus considered as a " provocation" Ryanair 's recent request to integrate their association.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

sean1982
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by sean1982 » 13 May 2014, 09:18

And why would it suddenly be unfair from BRU while it is not in CRL? :D these type of cases have been filed time and time again and it always turns out the same. FR complies fully with the european law ( with employees paying taxes in Ireland and social security in the based country)This is where BATA is allready wrong, cause the article states that employees pay their social security in Ireland,so there is no ground for a case. There is nothing that stops JAF, HQ or SN from doing the same. In fact JAF allready does it by partially making its pilots fly under a morrocan AOC so they can pay them more money for less tax!!

Are they going to do the same for vueling? Because they work with the same system. As does easyjet.
Anyway, it is a basic european right for every airline to fly between 2 european airports, so this has not even a fighting chance. It does prove how rotten belgian aviation is ;)
Last edited by sean1982 on 13 May 2014, 09:29, edited 2 times in total.

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lumumba
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by lumumba » 13 May 2014, 09:23

It's unfair we are a family of 7 last September we wana make a early booking for summer Holliday's to Portugal.(Faro)
With SN the cheapest was 380€ per person 11 month's in advance?!?!?
Lucky enough we can all go to Portugal with Ryanair for us it's like a relief!!!!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

airazurxtror
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by airazurxtror » 13 May 2014, 09:49

If they want to throw out of BRU all the foreign companies that don't pay taxes as high as the Belgian ones - there will be much less traffic at Zaventem and much less noise over Brussels : the Wathelet plan need not be changed !
Last edited by airazurxtror on 13 May 2014, 10:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Av24.be
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by Av24.be » 13 May 2014, 09:50

lumumba wrote:It's unfair we are a family of 7 last September we wana make a early booking for summer Holliday's to Portugal.(Faro)
With SN the cheapest was 380€ per person 11 month's in advance?!?!?
Lucky enough we can all go to Portugal with Ryanair for us it's like a relief!!!!
Off-topic Lumumba ....

Please stick to the forum title.

sean1982
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by sean1982 » 13 May 2014, 09:52

Why is that off topic? He's highlighting the protectionism and practices of keeping prices high?

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by teddybAIR » 13 May 2014, 10:15

I do not see what is unfair about it, I rather see what is inconvenient. Nobody wants to pay high prices if they have the option, but don't be fooled: someone at RYR ultimately pays the bill of the flight.

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lumumba
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by lumumba » 13 May 2014, 12:01

teddybAIR wrote:I do not see what is unfair about it, I rather see what is inconvenient. Nobody wants to pay high prices if they have the option, but don't be fooled: someone at RYR ultimately pays the bill of the flight.
It's unfair to go to court.
They have a good business model that's all and it works.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by teddybAIR » 13 May 2014, 12:42

lumumba wrote:
teddybAIR wrote:I do not see what is unfair about it, I rather see what is inconvenient. Nobody wants to pay high prices if they have the option, but don't be fooled: someone at RYR ultimately pays the bill of the flight.
It's unfair to go to court.
They have a good business model that's all and it works.
Question: is it ever unfair to go to court to settle a discussion? I thought that was the very purpuse of a court, actually. BATA members are simply trying to enforce the level playing field with equal conditions for every operator that operates from a belgian base. They try to enforce common rules across an industry. I don't see the unfairness in that.

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by Acid-drop » 13 May 2014, 13:14

ryanair is doing everything legally until 2020 when the rules change.
This is just useless and discussing it also.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by sean1982 » 13 May 2014, 13:28

teddybAIR wrote:
lumumba wrote:
teddybAIR wrote:I do not see what is unfair about it, I rather see what is inconvenient. Nobody wants to pay high prices if they have the option, but don't be fooled: someone at RYR ultimately pays the bill of the flight.
It's unfair to go to court.
They have a good business model that's all and it works.
Question: is it ever unfair to go to court to settle a discussion? I thought that was the very purpuse of a court, actually. BATA members are simply trying to enforce the level playing field with equal conditions for every operator that operates from a belgian base. They try to enforce common rules across an industry. I don't see the unfairness in that.
With that caption that this has been beaten to death and FR complies fully with the european laws!
Not just untill 2020 but also beyond, when grandfather rights will expire.

Like I said, nothing is preventing the belgian airlines to start an irish AOC and "level the field". Just like Alitalia did or Norwegian or JAF with a morroccan AOC, so in fact they go to court for something they are doing themselves. An additional advantage is that such a move would be a gigantic f*ck you to the government for doing nothing about belgium's notoriously high labour costs.

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by teddybAIR » 13 May 2014, 14:05

I know, the only point I want to make is that it is never unfair to go to court. They will most probably rule that RYR operates in respect of European law and that will be the end of it...nothing unfair about that, just plain competition

airazurxtror
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by airazurxtror » 13 May 2014, 14:15

Bye-bye Ryanair ?
Then, bye-bye fat subsidies to SN and C° !
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by Squelsh » 13 May 2014, 14:23

If all is within the law, the court will declare the case inadmissible/onontvankelijk.

nothing todo with fair or unfair. If you feel mistreated, you are free(have the right) to go to court and file a case. Court will see if there is ground or not. no biggie.

Inquirer
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by Inquirer » 13 May 2014, 14:29

I don't see why it would be unfair to go to court?

It's the cornerstone of our legal system that if one feels somebody is doing you wrong, you may bring this before a neutral person who'll decide upon the case brought to him.

Also, if I am not mistaken, fairly similar cases have been won in France against amongst others Easyjet :x, so I wouldn't automatically share the optimism of some here to say that everything is fine and all this is stillborn, because EU rules are followed to the letter (which I don't know if true or not in itself).

Belgian courts MAY, but do NOT HAVE to take into account EU legislation in their verdicts, but they HAVE to take into account Belgian laws, so in case of contradictions between the 2 a Belgian judge may indeed rule based on Belgian law alone which indeed likely yields a negative verdict, after which the case probably ends up before an EU body, but in the mean time, the verdict based on Belgian law alone firmly stands and has to be enforced, so a lot may depend on the scope the judge wants to take for his/her verdict.

sean1982
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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by sean1982 » 13 May 2014, 14:47

You know as well as Anybody else that every precedent in belgium the courts declared themselves inadmissable as they CANNOT overrule european law :roll:

And tell me why would the most watched company in europe not follow the law, spindoctor?

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by Passenger » 13 May 2014, 15:30

Sure, Ryanair complies to the social security system, allowing its staff to pay social security in Ireland. But that is not what BATA opposes. BATA states that this system, although not an infract to social law, is an infract against another law – the WMPC/LPMC. In my humble opinion, BATA has a point here:

Wet betreffende de Marktpraktijken en Consumentenbescherming, aka WMPC - Loi relative aux pratiques du marché et à la protection du consommateur – aka LPMC:

“…Verboden is elke met de eerlijke marktpraktijken strijdige daad waardoor een onderneming de beroepsbelangen van een of meer andere ondernemingen schaadt of kan schaden - Est interdit, tout acte contraire aux pratiques honnêtes du marché par lequel une entreprise porte atteinte ou peut porter atteinte aux intérêts professionels d’une ou de plusieurs autres entreprises”.

Suppose I found a social profit organization (vzw/asbl), with official aim “to assist travelers at airports with their holiday needs, i.e. by offering them a relaxing seat and a drink”. Suppose I would then rent a shop at Brussels Airport. Suppose my staff would consist of retired and/or unemployed people that I pay a legal “volunteer fee”. Suppose I would then invite travelers with “coffee 1 Euro membership fee”. I don’t pay btw/vat, because coffee is free: travelers just pay a membership fee. I don’t have to pay social taxes for staff: they’re all “volunteers of a non profit organization”.

So I’m doing nothing illegal. But how long will it take before the coffee shop owners at the airport will ask the court to forbit this unfair competition?

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by sean1982 » 13 May 2014, 16:26

We do not pay social security in Ireland but in belgium!

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by teddybAIR » 13 May 2014, 16:42

That can be, but standing on the sideline, this is what we read (article of 2013): Ryanair fined for avoided social security payments and union bashing

Also available on Financial Timesif you have a subscription.

And here is what RPG has to say about it. But then again, I'm not in a good position to assess whether it's legal or not...that's up for a judge: https://twitter.com/RPGofficialpage/sta ... 3596866560

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Re: RYR to be kicked out of BRU ?

Post by appel » 13 May 2014, 17:43

Your article from 2013 is about the timeframe 2007-2010 when the new european law wasn't in effect yet.

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