Ryanair in 2014

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Lysexpat
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Joined: 31 May 2013, 11:44

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Lysexpat »

sean1982 wrote:Like I said ... ONLY in france. They need to protect their nearly bankrupt legacy carrier off course
You also said ONLY Ryanair, which is not true, it is all all airlines using the same technique.
Not to protect AF as they have been convicted as well, but to protect the employee. it took the EU more than 5 years to take the same measure.
Airlines were using a loophole, France closed the loophole in 2006, the EU closed it in 2012.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Passenger »

Lysexpat wrote:
sean1982 wrote:Im nor even going to waste my breath on this one. All I am saying is that this legal framework is being used by airlines and the shipping industry all over the world to employ border workers. There have been many precedents, also in Belgium for example and FR has won every single one of them, proving that they are following the european laws on this to the letter. ONLY in france and ONLY with FR they are making a case out of it.
I am afraid it was NOT legal in France, the French legislation was the same as the new actual European law, hence cew based in France had to pay French social security. Ryan, Ezy, Vueling, Cityjet and even Air France (as it was using Cityjet employees on AF flight numbers) have all been convicted.
They all did it... They all did what? Many carriers indeed registered their cabin crew and cockpit crew in the cheapest country. But no carrier has been convicted for that: few years ago, the European Union only stated that it would be illegal for new stations abroad, and that current contracts must be terminated (within ten years, I think).

But this conviction is not about cabin crew and cockpit crew: this conviction is about French locals working full day on French territory: ground staff, administration, sales. Many of them never worked one single day outside France, but yet they had an Irish labour contract. Reasons: the Irish social security is cheaper then the French, and Irish law allows Ryanair to refuse the presence of trade unions.

"...La justice estime à l'inverse que la compagnie mène une activité pérenne, et même croissante, depuis cette base. L'enquête des gendarmes de l'Office central de lutte contre le travail illégal (OCLTI) montre ainsi que Ryanair dispose de 300 m2 de locaux, avec des lignes fixes, 95 casiers, des sous-traitants et deux cadres reconnus comme supérieurs hiérarchiques. Une surveillance des parkings révèle aussi que les salariés vivent dans la région..."

Lysexpat
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Joined: 31 May 2013, 11:44

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Lysexpat »

Passenger wrote:But this conviction is not about cabin crew and cockpit crew: this conviction is about French locals working full day on French territory: ground staff, administration, sales. Many of them never worked one single day outside France, but yet they had an Irish labour contract. Reasons: the Irish social security is cheaper then the French, and Irish law allows Ryanair to refuse the presence of trade unions.

"...La justice estime à l'inverse que la compagnie mène une activité pérenne, et même croissante, depuis cette base. L'enquête des gendarmes de l'Office central de lutte contre le travail illégal (OCLTI) montre ainsi que Ryanair dispose de 300 m2 de locaux, avec des lignes fixes, 95 casiers, des sous-traitants et deux cadres reconnus comme supérieurs hiérarchiques. Une surveillance des parkings révèle aussi que les salariés vivent dans la région..."
Not at all passenger, it is about crew!
Of the two members of management, at least one, the base captain, was a crewmember as well.
Ryanair does not employ local ground staff, sales,...

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sn26567 »

This morning I attended the official inauguration of the new Ryanair route between Brussels and Dublin, which was launched last Sunday.
Advertisement for the new route at the Ryanair check-in counter (Row 2)
Advertisement for the new route at the Ryanair check-in counter (Row 2)
It was the opportunity to have a nice chat with Yann Delomez, the new Ryanair marketing manager for Belgium, France and Morocco, about Ryanair in Belgium (extension of the Charleroi runway, future transatlantic flights - a dream that's still far away, new flights from Charleroi to Prague Bucharest and Budapest, rotation times in Brussels = 25 minutes but longer taxiing, very encouraging numbers of business passengers, etc.)
IMG_7800.JPG
IMG_7799.JPG
Today's morning flight to Dublin had 170 passengers, many of whom were surprised to get a free breakfast. The rotation time is 25 minutes, and therefore the plane is not docked at a B gate, but it is stationed with the other Ryanair aircraft and passengers are bussed from one of the gates B80-B94 (on the ground floor) to that position.

Pictures of the inauguration:
Breakfast ready at gate B94 for the passengers and the guests
Breakfast ready at gate B94 for the passengers and the guests
The scissors for the inauguration ceremony
The scissors for the inauguration ceremony
Cutting the ribbon, from left to right: Leon Verhallen (Brussels Airport), Danielle Neyts (Tourism Ireland representative in Belgium), Eamonn Mac Aodha (Ambassador of Ireland in Belgium), Yann Delomez (marketing manager of Ryanair for Belgium, France and Morocco)
Cutting the ribbon, from left to right: Leon Verhallen (Brussels Airport), Danielle Neyts (Tourism Ireland representative in Belgium), Eamonn Mac Aodha (Ambassador of Ireland in Belgium), Yann Delomez (marketing manager of Ryanair for Belgium, France and Morocco)
IMG_7808.JPG
Passengers enjoying breakfast
Passengers enjoying breakfast
Today's morning flight announcement
Today's morning flight announcement
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flying Apple
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Joined: 24 Jun 2014, 04:08

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Flying Apple »

DannyVDB wrote:Hi all,

Saw on the BRU website two special flights from Ryanair :D

13:00 FR001 London Stansted

Is this flight to move airplanes between bases or is this a 'test' for a possible upcoming new destination of Ryanair :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Danny
FR001 and 002 are mostly used by the learjet for engineers or spare parts (or maybe someone going on holiday)

sdbelgium
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sdbelgium »

It was one of the Learjets (M-ABEU), but destination was LTN. It came in from STN, though. Reason was a base visit by management. Full routing STN-BRU-LTN-DUB-STN.

Edit: don't know if it actually came through as it says "Cancelled". Anyone to confirm?

airazurxtror
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by airazurxtror »

" new flights from Charleroi to Prague Bucharest and Budapest "

I don't understand : Ryanair fly Charleroi-Budapest since more than two years.
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

airazurxtror
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Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by airazurxtror »

Ryanair has said it will appeal a decision by a French court ordering it to pay €8.1million in damages and €200,000 in fines.

Ryanair’s Robin Kiely said: “Ryanair will appeal this ruling to the French Supreme Court on the basis that European employment law clearly allows mobile workers on Irish registered aircraft to pay their taxes and social taxes in Ireland.

“We will also be seeking a referral to the European Court of Justice to prevent these attempts by the French authorities to claim social taxes that have already been paid in full to Ireland.”
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
Lysexpat wrote:
sean1982 wrote:Im nor even going to waste my breath on this one. All I am saying is that this legal framework is being used by airlines and the shipping industry all over the world to employ border workers. There have been many precedents, also in Belgium for example and FR has won every single one of them, proving that they are following the european laws on this to the letter. ONLY in france and ONLY with FR they are making a case out of it.
I am afraid it was NOT legal in France, the French legislation was the same as the new actual European law, hence cew based in France had to pay French social security. Ryan, Ezy, Vueling, Cityjet and even Air France (as it was using Cityjet employees on AF flight numbers) have all been convicted.
They all did it... They all did what? Many carriers indeed registered their cabin crew and cockpit crew in the cheapest country. But no carrier has been convicted for that: few years ago, the European Union only stated that it would be illegal for new stations abroad, and that current contracts must be terminated (within ten years, I think).

But this conviction is not about cabin crew and cockpit crew: this conviction is about French locals working full day on French territory: ground staff, administration, sales. Many of them never worked one single day outside France, but yet they had an Irish labour contract. Reasons: the Irish social security is cheaper then the French, and Irish law allows Ryanair to refuse the presence of trade unions.

"...La justice estime à l'inverse que la compagnie mène une activité pérenne, et même croissante, depuis cette base. L'enquête des gendarmes de l'Office central de lutte contre le travail illégal (OCLTI) montre ainsi que Ryanair dispose de 300 m2 de locaux, avec des lignes fixes, 95 casiers, des sous-traitants et deux cadres reconnus comme supérieurs hiérarchiques. Une surveillance des parkings révèle aussi que les salariés vivent dans la région..."
This post once again serves as a reminder that you dont have a clue what you are talking about. Please talk about things you know instead of things you pretend to know just because you think you can bash an airline you obviously dont like.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Passenger »

airazurxtror wrote:Ryanair has said it will appeal a decision by a French court ordering it to pay €8.1million in damages and €200,000 in fines. Ryanair’s Robin Kiely said: “Ryanair will appeal this ruling to the French Supreme Court on the basis that European employment law clearly allows mobile workers on Irish registered aircraft to pay their taxes and social taxes in Ireland. “We will also be seeking a referral to the European Court of Justice to prevent these attempts by the French authorities to claim social taxes that have already been paid in full to Ireland.”
I'm quite sure that the Irish authorities can be forced to repay those social taxes when Ryanair gives proof that it was forced by a court verdict to pay them (again) in France.

Just wondering... To which doctor or hospital will those French mobile workers go when something happens to them when they're not at work? Will they apply for a French medical service, or an Irish one? Because after all, that's one of the principles of social security: if you enjoy it, you have to contribute to it.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 »

Principles of social security in europe are that you go to the local doctor or hospital and with an E106 that will be provided by the european country in wich you pay social contribution, the country that supplied you with medical services can claim that money from the E106 issueing country. At least that's how it used to work before the latest EU regulation and still is like that for a period of 10 years for people with an existing labour contract.

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Passenger »

sean1982 wrote:Principles of social security in europe are that you go to the local doctor or hospital and with an E106 that will be provided by the european country in wich you pay social contribution, the country that supplied you with medical services can claim that money from the E106 issueing country. At least that's how it used to work before the latest EU regulation and still is like that for a period of 10 years for people with an existing labour contract.
I was talking about the principle of social security: if you enjoy it, you have to contribute to it. Because apart from the direct costs, that can be refunded indeed, one also benefits from other health investments.

But then, the French prosecutor and all judges (first court and court in appeal) are all wrong of course.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 »

Everybody who works for Ryanair pays social contributions? What the hell are you talking about?

White Light
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Joined: 22 Jul 2014, 09:33

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by White Light »

Passenger wrote:But then, the French prosecutor and all judges (first court and court in appeal) are all wrong of course.
For those who had not noticed yet, our unofficial FR spokesman considers his airline and himself, even more himself than his airline which already has a bad record, to be above the law. Courts of Justice and judges are ALWAYS wrong, according to him, when they condemn the love of his life.

My advice : ignore him.

Inquirer
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Inquirer »

I for one will be pleased when airlines will finally pay their taxes and social contributions for their crews in the country where they are operating from, just like any other business needs to do when they set up a business somewhere.
The whole setup where a Frenchman, living in France and going to work every morning in France is paying his contributions in some other country which happens to be the country of origin of his employer just because he is working for an airline is a little bit too weird to be considered "normal" IMHO, regardless the discussion whether it is legal or not.
Imagine all those thousands of Belgians working for ING or BNP-Fortis paying their contributions in Holland resp. France iso Belgium, people working at Carrefour or ALDI paying in France resp. Germany; those working for Audi or Volvo in Germany reps Sweden?
Why should airlines have an exception?

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 »

Inquirer wrote: Why should airlines have an exception?
Not just airlines? Contruction industry, trucking, shipping, etc ....

And by the way ... Irish registered aircraft are considered "irish soil". So the crew is indeed working in Ireland.

Inquirer
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote:
Inquirer wrote: Why should airlines have an exception?
Not just airlines? Contruction industry, trucking, shipping, etc ....
Construction is fairly limited in time and will be heavily scrutinised in future to avoid the very frequent abuses of the detaching rule.
And road transport, indeed, is another sector where Polish and Hungarian companies make use of all too liberal laws to use lower living standards in their home country (and the lower taxes and contributions that go with it) to compete with our companies on our domestic market.
My take is that jobs which are hard to pinpoint in one nation because they involve frequent travel should be put up under a common European regulation to avoid companies engaging in social contribution shopping.
As said: if everybody working for a foreign employer in Belgium should be granted the right to avoid paying the high Belgian taxes and social contributions we might as well abolish the Min. Of Finances as well as our social security then.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 »

Under the new regulations this has allready been changed ... we are talking about a few years back here
A common european regulation is allready introduced.

Inquirer
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Inquirer »

sean1982 wrote:Under the new regulations this has allready been changed ... we are talking about a few years back here
A common european regulation is allready introduced.
I know, which is why I've said I will be pleased when it is finally implemented, so the annomality is over.
As said: whether it's legal or not, it's no longer at its place in today's highly interconnected world as literally millions of people are working for foreign companies now, so just pay where you are working, as that's where you are 'enjoying' the services which your hard labour entitles you to, if needed (hopefully not).

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sn26567 »

May I please ask everybody to behave correctly? Several posts have been deleted in part or entirely.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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