Ryanair in 2014

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
cnc
Posts: 1325
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by cnc » 05 Jun 2014, 21:10

even with chokes placed this could happen.
i remember we had one at BRU that jumped over its chokes because of heavy winds years ago.

airazurxtror
Posts: 3789
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by airazurxtror » 06 Jun 2014, 18:25

A spokesman for Ryanair told Huffington Post UK: “Ryanair has asked the ground handling agent (Groundcare) to investigate why it failed to properly secure a Ryanair aircraft at Rome Ciampino Airport yesterday (04 June).
“The parked and unoccupied aircraft rolled back and made contact with a remote building damaging its rear stabiliser. This is currently being replaced and the aircraft will shortly return to service.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06 ... 53378.html
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

flightlover
Posts: 637
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by flightlover » 06 Jun 2014, 18:54

cnc wrote:even with chokes placed this could happen.
i remember we had one at BRU that jumped over its chokes because of heavy winds years ago.
I can not imagine that hapening when there are chokes placed at each wheel bogie. Unless a huricane would hit the airport.

Passenger
Posts: 6362
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Passenger » 06 Jun 2014, 18:59

airazurxtror wrote:A spokesman for Ryanair told Huffington Post UK: “Ryanair has asked the ground handling agent (Groundcare) to investigate why it failed to properly secure a Ryanair aircraft at Rome Ciampino Airport yesterday (04 June). “The parked and unoccupied aircraft rolled back and made contact with a remote building damaging its rear stabiliser. This is currently being replaced and the aircraft will shortly return to service.”
Glad I wasn't in or near Dublin when this news was communicated to the leader... O'Leary's swearing caused a Richter 4.3 earthquake, I've heard from an unreliable source.

Lysexpat
Posts: 154
Joined: 31 May 2013, 11:44

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Lysexpat » 06 Jun 2014, 21:05

flightlover wrote:
cnc wrote:even with chokes placed this could happen.
i remember we had one at BRU that jumped over its chokes because of heavy winds years ago.
I can not imagine that hapening when there are chokes placed at each wheel bogie. Unless a huricane would hit the airport.
choCk
a choke is what you find in engines.

cnc
Posts: 1325
Joined: 19 May 2009, 16:14

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by cnc » 06 Jun 2014, 23:36

flightlover wrote:
cnc wrote:even with chokes placed this could happen.
i remember we had one at BRU that jumped over its chokes because of heavy winds years ago.
I can not imagine that hapening when there are chokes placed at each wheel bogie. Unless a huricane would hit the airport.
idd only one of the front wheels and one of the rear left wheels which is enough at normal weather

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2455
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by tolipanebas » 07 Jun 2014, 01:06

Isn't the flight crew supposed to check for chocks prior to leaving their plane behind?
Regardless the neglect by the handler, it's also either proof of unsafe company procedures or a violation of them ...

sean1982
Posts: 3170
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 » 07 Jun 2014, 08:30

I was wondering how long it would take before you jumped the wagon.
Chocks were not available due to strike of groundstaff (im sure you know what a strike means, at least your fellow pilots know) therefore it was agreed with engineering to leave the airplane on park brake, but a technical failure led to the löss of accumulator pressure.

flightlover
Posts: 637
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by flightlover » 07 Jun 2014, 09:02

sean1982 wrote:I was wondering how long it would take before you jumped the wagon.
Chocks were not available due to strike of groundstaff (im sure you know what a strike means, at least your fellow pilots know) therefore it was agreed with engineering to leave the airplane on park brake, but a technical failure led to the löss of accumulator pressure.
They where not available or the flightcrew or technicians didn't want to lay them? Most of the time you will not have to look hard to find them. It's not like you have to have a certain degree before you can place them.
But then again, everyone has to do his/her job and not much else even if safety comes to mind, right?

sean1982
Posts: 3170
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 » 07 Jun 2014, 09:34

Chocks were being guarded by strikers. If I say not available I mean exactly that NOT AVAILABLE! Don't come up with BS about "everybody just doing his job" I have loaded and unloaded airplanes before when groundstaff was on strike. The flightcrew consulted with maintenance and they did what they were told to do in good faith. No single pilot in the world thinks:"oh well, if it rolls, it rolls"

Maybe get your facts straight before you start bashing, no? :roll:

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2455
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by tolipanebas » 07 Jun 2014, 09:42

sean1982 wrote:therefore it was agreed with engineering to leave the airplane on park brake, but a technical failure led to the löss of accumulator pressure.
That technical failure you refer to is nothing but the natural depletion of the parking brake accumulator which is exactly the reason you must have chocks in place whenever parked, especially if you park the plane for a prolonged time...
Interesting to hear that at Ryanair, pilots and technicians can decide themselves certain technical limitations aren't applicable if that suits them well on the occasion.:roll:
If for some reason you have no chocks in place and thus have to remain on parking brake, somebody must remain in the cockpit all the time until the plane is secured by any other mean, it's a manufacturer's limitation and it's why it's a good idea to always have a pair of chocks in the plane's hold if you do not have them somewhere available at the airport (company office, line maintenance Center), but let me guess: at Ryanair you don't have offices with supplies because everything is subcontracted, nor do you carry chocks with you on board for weight saving, right? :roll:
As always with Ryanair, if one little chain of the long supply chain fails, the whole operation becomes a complete and even dangerous mess....

sean1982
Posts: 3170
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 » 07 Jun 2014, 10:15

sean1982 wrote:they did what they were told to do in good faith. No single pilot in the world thinks:"oh well, if it rolls, it rolls"
But self proclaimed god's gift to aviation sure knows best. If it's true what you say, there would be hundreds more incidents.

*EDIT* update - It's not even sure yet, investigation will tell but it could be the case that chocks were initially in place but have been removed by the ground crew afterwards.
Last edited by sn26567 on 07 Jun 2014, 20:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unsuitable sentence removed

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Flanker2 » 07 Jun 2014, 10:44

That technical failure you refer to is nothing but the natural depletion of the parking brake accumulator which is exactly the reason you must have chocks in place whenever parked, especially if you park the plane for a prolonged time...
Sorry Tolipanebas but maybe you need to review your FCOM regarding parking brake operations before embarassing yourself any further.
You don't deplete your accumulators overnight in normal operations with minimal leaks on the valve and sufficient pressure is applied to it, unless you start toying with the brakes. That's the same on Airbus, Boeing and Avro RJ.
On a 50 year old Cessna you can't rely on the parking brakes working... :lol:

The parking break is sufficient to hold an aircraft at full thrust during an engine run except on Airbus (see EY A346 :lol: ).
So you don't need someone in the cockpit in the absence of chocks, the parking brake is sufficient to secure the aircraft. It's sometimes hard to find chocks in BRU, so even there aircraft are occasionally left without chocks, and more often than ideal on 2 sets of chocks only.
Aircraft receive daily maintenance checks, and if no chocks are placed, maintenance crews should have the reflex to check the hydraulic pressure on the brakes and charge the system if required during these checks.
And even if that is some kind of written procedure in the OM, what good would it be to have someone in the cockpit in the absence of chocks when the only point of the chocks is as safety in case the parking brakes fail?

As for the Ciampino mess, if the chocks, ie the safe-fail was withheld by strikers, then IMO they have their share of fault in the accident besides the technical failure that caused the parking brakes to become inoperative/ineffective.
Interesting to hear that at Ryanair, pilots and technicians can decide themselves certain technical limitations aren't applicable if that suits them well on the occasion.
If the parking brake failed, then it's not due to a technical limitation but a failure :lol: :lol: :lol:
The insurance will foot the bill and probably try to recoup part of it from the CIA handler for negligence.
At FR I doubt that it happens often, except in exceptional circumstances such as this one.
The question is... how often does it happen at your airline Tolipanebas? Maybe more often than you think?

User avatar
tolipanebas
Posts: 2455
Joined: 12 May 2004, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by tolipanebas » 07 Jun 2014, 11:00

Once again you demonstrate zero operational knowledge, flanker!
A p.brake gets its hydraulic brake pressure from an accumulator, and as such brake pressure decays as time goes by, so whereas a p.brake easily holds a plane during a static engine run if it was applied shortly before, it can't be relied upon to even hold a plane static without its engines running after a while, as was demonstrated here once again...
For the rest: I suggest you forward your technical insight to the manufacturers as they clearly don't understand the (ir)relevance of the operational limitations of their own planes. ROTFL.

airazurxtror
Posts: 3789
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 00:00

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by airazurxtror » 07 Jun 2014, 12:35

Ryanair top brass will complete a roadshow today as the airline pitches its €3bn bond programme to investors.
Ryanair plans to use the money it will raise from the so-called Euro Medium Term Note programme (EMTN) to help finance its purchase of 180 aircraft from Boeing, as well as for other corporate purposes.
Under the programme, Ryanair won't have more than €3bn in notes outstanding.
The airline embarked on the roadshow after ratings agencies Fitch, and Standard and Poor's made it the highest-rated airline in the world.
There has been intense interest in the bond offer.

The bond prospectus warns potential investors that they need to be cognisant of factors that could prevent Ryanair from performing as expected over the next few years.
It cites issues including European Commission and UK probes.
"Ryanair is facing allegations that it has benefited from unlawful state aid in a number of court cases," it notes.
It also points out that the EC is investigating agreements with a number of other airports to determine whether arrangements the airline has with them constitute illegal state aid.
"Adverse rulings in the above state aid matters could be used as precedents by competitors to challenge Ryanair's agreements with other publicly-owned airports and could cause Ryanair to strongly reconsider its growth strategy," the bond prospectus warns.
It has also cautioned that its labour practices, where most staff work to Irish contracts, have been subject to state scrutiny in some jurisdictions."If Ryanair were forced to concede that Irish jurisdiction did not apply to those crew who operate from continental Europe, then it could lead to increased salary, social insurance and pension costs and a potential loss of flexibility," it said.

See more at: http://www.independent.ie/business/iris ... SkmQi.dpuf
IF IT AIN'T BOEING, I'M NOT GOING.

rhigginson
Posts: 29
Joined: 07 Aug 2009, 22:34

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by rhigginson » 07 Jun 2014, 13:41

Ryanair has been voted the UK's "worst airline" and British Airways its best:

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/uk/ ... uk-airline

RTM
Posts: 356
Joined: 07 Apr 2013, 00:27

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by RTM » 07 Jun 2014, 15:27

@Flanker...
On one of the types you just mentioned in your example, the parkingbrake decay rate limit is set by the manufacturer at 6 minutes! That means, if after 6 minutes the park brake accumulater low press light comes on, it is within limites. They reckon it is sufficient time to put chocks in place.
But, I do not know the limits of a 738, but similar rules can apply.

Also, if the park brake holds an aircraft during static full power runs, bear in mind that the hydraulic pumps are constantly supplying pressure, and that there can be no decay unless there is a major malfunction.

On topic, the flight crew imo should have made sure the a/c was safe to be left alone, before they left it alone. This includes chocks. If they didn't, they do bear part of the responsibility. Even if some maintenance guru in ireland told them it would be ok. In ireland you can't see eg that there is an incline on the platform. I also do think the airport authorities should be involved if that was to be the decision.

If it is true the ground personell removed chocks, they should be fired and prosecuted. By no means is that justified by the strike. I guess investigations will find out.

sean1982
Posts: 3170
Joined: 18 Mar 2003, 00:00
Contact:

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by sean1982 » 07 Jun 2014, 16:13

A fully charged accumulator on a B738 provides a minimum of 8 hours pressure.

Flanker2
Posts: 1611
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Flanker2 » 07 Jun 2014, 18:51

RTM wrote:@Flanker...
On one of the types you just mentioned in your example, the parkingbrake decay rate limit is set by the manufacturer at 6 minutes! That means, if after 6 minutes the park brake accumulater low press light comes on, it is within limites. They reckon it is sufficient time to put chocks in place.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Why don't you just say which one it is?
This is from the A320 manual:
4) Parking Brake
When the PARK BRK control switch is set to ON (applied):
- the other braking modes are disconnected,
- the brakes are supplied with Yellow high pressure or accumulator
pressure.
The parking-brake electrical control-valve limits the pressure.
The return lines are shut off to permit to hold the brakes on for a
minimum of twelve hours.
The red warning light flashes. The CONFIG
PARKING BRAKE ON message appears on the upper ECAM DU when:
- the parking-brake control switch is in the ON (applied) position

and
The accumulator has sufficient capacity to hold the brakes on for a minimum
time of twelve hours. The TO CONFIG warning light (on the ECAM control
panel) reminds the crew to release the parking brake when the engine is at
full throttle.
B737NG manual:
A fully charged (3000 psi) brake accumulator keeps the brakes pressurized at least eight hours.
Fortunately, I didn't need Google for this one. :roll:

A good A320 or B737 with a healthy braking system can hold it several days.
The Avro can hold it several days as well.


This being said, normal procedure is to apply chocks as soon as possible after the engines and beacon lights are switched off. At BRU and around the world, you often see the handlers applying chocks before the beacon or engines are off... which is stupid.

It's easy to point fingers to others, but really you should first see how things are done in your own house.

Passenger
Posts: 6362
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair in 2014

Post by Passenger » 08 Jun 2014, 00:28

tolipanebas wrote:Once again you demonstrate zero operational knowledge, flanker!
A p.brake gets its hydraulic brake pressure from an accumulator, and as such brake pressure decays as time goes by, so whereas a p.brake easily holds a plane during a static engine run if it was applied shortly before, it can't be relied upon to even hold a plane static without its engines running after a while, as was demonstrated here once again...
For the rest: I suggest you forward your technical insight to the manufacturers as they clearly don't understand the (ir)relevance of the operational limitations of their own planes. ROTFL.
It's not only Boeing that doesn't know how to design and/or manufacture aircraft: Bombardier also has stupid engineers. But luckily, someone is there to advise them how it must be done:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=53413

Post Reply