Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

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BigJets
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Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by BigJets »

A Cebu Pacific Air Airbus A320 "RP-C3266" with 165 passengers coming from Manila sustained damage in a landing accident in Davao city, the Philippines' 3rd largest airport, on Sunday evening, June 2nd.
Upon landing on runway 23 in heavy rain, the aircraft went off into the grass on the right side of the runway. The nose gear collapsed.
Of course, this is not the first time this type of accident happens but the main focus here is the inability of the crew (cockpit or cabin crew) to act in an emergency situation! The aircraft came to a stop, nose down attitude, engines damaged and NO evacuation was ordered by the captain, no initiatives were made by the Purser or cabin crew. It took 15 to 30 minutes before the crew decided to open one door (door 1 left) with the slide deployed and let the passengers out. Luckily there were no fatalities or injuries.
According to Candice Iyog, spokesperson and vice president for marketing and distribution at Cebu Pacific Air "The crew, they did not panic, they had the presence of mind to follow procedure which is what they were trained to do." Iyog recounted that "within five minutes of the plane's landing, the crew saw that as the engine was not on fire there was no need to immediately evacuate the passengers." "And given the position of the aircraft, it was tilted to the front so if they had opened the back [door] and all the slides, it could have caused more injury if the crew had panicked and rushed everybody off the aircraft," Iyog said, explaining why there was no emergency evacuation that occurred. Candice Iyog, meanwhile, insists their "pilots are experienced and are considered veterans in the industry".
President and CEO of Cebu Pacific Mr. Lance Gokongwei says: "The pilots and cabin crew followed the industry's standard operating practice." "Our crew onboard followed the protocol... I would like to congratulate the professionalism of our crew on board with all passengers safe," he said.
The crew on board followed the protocol??? Is it the industry standard NOT to evacuate an aircraft in such a situation? These are real comments made by Cebu Pacific management. UNBELIEVEABLE in this day and age how they even dare to say things like that in public just to downplay the incident and attempt to "brush off" any possible blame!

sources:
http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/business/06/ ... vao-mishap
http://www.rappler.com/business/industr ... -emergency
http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 20130602-0
Cebu1.jpg
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earthman
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by earthman »

BigJets wrote: The crew on board followed the protocol??? Is it the industry standard NOT to evacuate an aircraft in such a situation? These are real comments made by Cebu Pacific management. UNBELIEVEABLE in this day and age how they even dare to say things like that in public just to downplay the incident and attempt to "brush off" any possible blame!
I see from your reaction that you are not familiar with the Philippines.

fcw
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by fcw »

What makes you think the crew should have ordered an evacuation?
When do you think an evacution is ordered?

BigJets
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by BigJets »

earthman wrote:
BigJets wrote: The crew on board followed the protocol??? Is it the industry standard NOT to evacuate an aircraft in such a situation? These are real comments made by Cebu Pacific management. UNBELIEVEABLE in this day and age how they even dare to say things like that in public just to downplay the incident and attempt to "brush off" any possible blame!
I see from your reaction that you are not familiar with the Philippines.
earthman, you mean that the whole world follows the same procedures but not in the Philippines? Why should they be any different?

Flanker2
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by Flanker2 »

If there is no imminent threat you don't need to evacuate.
In these situations it's better to wait calmly and see if you can't get stairs to dock to the aircraft.

I don't know if you're familiar with A320's, but they are tall beasts. With nose gear collapsed you have a nice angle of (negative) pitch. You can't see it from the pics, but it's quite impressive if you're up there. In these situations, ordering an evacuation will cause a sense of urgency and people are going to hurt their ankles and knees, damage their clothes coming down the slide.

It's the Phillipines but I think that they made the right decision.

We also don't know the reason why they departed the runway. Weather in those area's is much more intense than in Belgium, if you are already decelerating too 100kts and are hit by a big crosswind, you may not be able to maintain your aircraft on the runway.

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earthman
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by earthman »

BigJets wrote: earthman, you mean that the whole world follows the same procedures but not in the Philippines? Why should they be any different?
Would you be surprised if procedures were not followed in Indonesia, Bangladesh, D.R.C, or other such places?

Also, regardless of whether the procedures were actually followed or not, in Philippine culture it would be a huge faux pas to point out someone else's mistakes in public. Or admitting to your own. This is the same issue (related to shame and pride) that hinders safety in a lot of not-quite-western cultures (and to some degree in western ones too).

LeFreak
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by LeFreak »

for once i agree with Flanker :-)
viva jumbolino!

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KriVa
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by KriVa »

I'm with Flanker too. This crash calls for a rapid disembarkation, not an evacuation. (With the statements we have now.)
Thomas

sean1982
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by sean1982 »

I agree with Flanker too. Even though there is a nose down attitude, there is no immediate chance for injuries or death, so no need to evacuate.

Passenger
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:If there is no imminent threat you don't need to evacuate.
In these situations it's better to wait calmly and see if you can't get stairs to dock to the aircraft. I don't know if you're familiar with A320's, but they are tall beasts. With nose gear collapsed you have a nice angle of (negative) pitch. You can't see it from the pics, but it's quite impressive if you're up there. In these situations, ordering an evacuation will cause a sense of urgency and people are going to hurt their ankles and knees, damage their clothes coming down the slide. It's the Phillipines but I think that they made the right decision. We also don't know the reason why they departed the runway. Weather in those area's is much more intense than in Belgium, if you are already decelerating too 100kts and are hit by a big crosswind, you may not be able to maintain your aircraft on the runway.
What flanker here has copy/pasted from the accident report in The Aviation Herald is correct:

… while landing on Davao's runway 23 in heavy rain and came to a stop with the nose gear collapsed, both engines received substantial damage due to ground contact following the nose gear collapse.

… both engines had made ground contact following the nose gear collapse however, both engines were severely damaged, likely beyond repair, and emitted smoke. The crew however quickly established that the engines were not on fire. Due to the tilted position of the aircraft the crew anticipated that an emergency evacuation would cause injuries, assessed the situation and then decided to perform a precautionary disembarkation via the left hand front door and evacuation slide.

Real source:
http://avherald.com/h?article=46336de8&opt=0

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tolipanebas
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by tolipanebas »

Evacuations are serious stuff, especially on bigger planes and yes, the A320 is a big airplane.
Just you compare how high it sits vs a 737, so no captain is ever going to order an evacuation if there is no imminent danger to the passengers on board.

While evacuating may instinctively seem like a good option to some, one should remember that in general far more passengers get injured during a disorderly evacuation than during an 'ordinary' runway excursion: I'd definitely have stayed as well in this case, given there was no danger anylonger.

What's surprising to me is that they actually managed to keep everybody on board.
What you often see happen in events like these is that some panicking passengers will react instinctively and will want to get out asap regardless of the crew's orders, initiating the evactuation themselves, because they already imagine themselves in scenarios of exploding fuel tanks and stuff like that.
Well guess what: jet fuel doesn't explode that easily: in fact it's pretty hard to make it ignite even, so what Hollywood shows you in their movies, is dead wrong.

BigJets
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by BigJets »

fcw wrote:What makes you think the crew should have ordered an evacuation?
When do you think an evacution is ordered?
When you're at the commands and your aircraft slides off the runway and the gear collapses, then chances are one or both engines are damaged as well. Is there a fire or not? You can not assess the situation from the cockpit, nor from the cabin for that matter and you certainly do not risk the safety of the passengers by keeping them on board and “assume” that everything is going to be ok. Well, everything did turn out ok but that was more luck rather than a correct judgment. Yes, passengers do get injured when an emergency evacuation is ordered but those injuries could be considered light compared to what would happen if the aircraft would of turned into a ball of fire.
Flanker2 wrote:If there is no imminent threat you don't need to evacuate.
In these situations it's better to wait calmly and see if you can't get stairs to dock to the aircraft.
Yes, of course, if there is no imminent threat you don't need to evacuate but, HOW DO YOU KNOW FOR SURE THAT THERE IS NO THREAT ? As I mentioned above the aircraft left the runway, the gear collapsed, the nose of the aircraft hits the ground, you don't know the extent of the damage to the engines (did it ingest debris, is it on fire?) did flying debris damage the wings, maybe even puncturing the fuel lines ? Did the brakes overheat ? There is no way of knowing. You can discuss this with any crew member and they will tell you. At the discretion of the captain he may possibly order the cabin crew to keep both rear doors closed due to the tail up position but take NO RISKS ! GET OUT AND GET OUT FAST ! EVACUATE EVACUATE EVACUATE ! Better safe than sorry.
earthman wrote: Would you be surprised if procedures were not followed in Indonesia, Bangladesh, D.R.C, or other such places?
Also, regardless of whether the procedures were actually followed or not, in Philippine culture it would be a huge faux pas to point out someone else's mistakes in public. Or admitting to your own. This is the same issue (related to shame and pride) that hinders safety in a lot of not-quite-western cultures (and to some degree in western ones too).
Yes earthman, I totally agree with you but does this make it ok? I am very familiar with the Philippines and I also know it is very difficult for them to admit mistakes. Unfortunately when you give them constructive criticism with the purpose of learning from their mistakes they will deny it and feel offended rather than doing something about it. Well I guess we may react much the same way here in Europe.
Eastern culture often hinders safety indeed, especially when it comes to communication and hierarchy between crew members. At Cebu Pacific in particular, cabin crew is very young and may not dare to speak their minds towards older and more experienced colleagues of the cockpit, creating a safety hazard on it’s own. CRM (Crew Resource Management) courses should be mandatory where colleagues should learn to speak openly and be aware of the possible dangers around them and communicate/report them. It should be pounded into them and become second nature. Easier said than done of course.

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earthman
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by earthman »

BigJets wrote: Yes earthman, I totally agree with you but does this make it ok?
I am not saying it is ok, just that it is not surprising.

Then again, just saying 'yeah no surprise there' is not a very constructive criticism.

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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by sean1982 »

Bigjets, you're reacting like any passenger would. All the people that answered your thread are almost all crewmembers and all for different airlines, yet everybody tells you the same. Don't you think that they might be correct. The captains decision not to evacuate was beyond any doubt well considered and assessed. If and when the slightest sign of fire would occur they could have still started an evacuation.

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KriVa
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by KriVa »

Bigjets:

You say you don't want to take any risks, and thus would evacuate the plane. By evacuating the plane, you're taking a MUCH bigger risk than keeping everybody on board for just a few more moments, and starting an orderly rapid disembarkation.
So, again: Evacuation? No. Rapid disembarkation? Yes, as soon as the engines stop turning, and you have received an "all clear".
Thomas

BigJets
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by BigJets »

earthman wrote: I am not saying it is ok, just that it is not surprising.
Then again, just saying 'yeah no surprise there' is not a very constructive criticism.
I'm not sure I get what you mean in your last sentence.
sean1982 wrote:All the people that answered your thread are almost all crewmembers and all for different airlines, yet everybody tells you the same. Don't you think that they might be correct. The captains decision not to evacuate was beyond any doubt well considered and assessed. If and when the slightest sign of fire would occur they could have still started an evacuation.
Crew members ? I guess they're all working for D.R.C.Air ? No seriously, how would you know for sure that the decision was well assessed when the captain of the Cebu Pacific didn’t even know himself ? Unless he was so fast that he went out to make a quick external to come and say that everything was ok ( no damages wings or leaking fuel, no engine fires or overheated landing gear, etc…), or maybe he was psychic ? If you run off the road with your car and end up in a ditch, can you say for certain that your car won’t catch fire? I mean chances are it won’t but you don’t really know for sure do you ? So imagine a 77 ton aircraft, do you really know what’s happening around your aircraft, sitting in the cockpit ?
KriVa wrote: Bigjets: You say you don't want to take any risks, and thus would evacuate the plane. By evacuating the plane, you're taking a MUCH bigger risk than keeping everybody on board for just a few more moments, and starting an orderly rapid disembarkation.
How many moments would you wait ? 15 to 30 minutes like the crew of the Cebu Pacific did or is that the orderly “rapid” disembarkation you’re talking about ? I suggest you ask your captain on your next flight. Be honest and give him all the facts without being biased. See where it takes you.
KriVa wrote:Bigjets: So, again: Evacuation? No. Rapid disembarkation? Yes, as soon as the engines stop turning, and you have received an "all clear".
Remember your (Jetairfly) training. When is the “all clear” given ? When there is certainty that everything is safe, or not ? My point is this is not an aborted take-off or you have not even come to a stop on the runway. The aircraft left the runway, the gear collapsed and in “full darkness” the crew decides NOT to evacuate ?? Present this scenario to any experienced crew member and he/she will tell you to evacuate. Never mind what the costs may be or how the reputation of the company may be harmed. Safety FIRST ! Get out !

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KriVa
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by KriVa »

In this case, the all clear would be given by the fire chief, which would happen about 4-5 minutes after the crash.
If we were in a crash like this, i wouldn't care about the company for a second. The three tings I care about are my safety, the safety of my crew, and the safety of my passengers.
Don't worry, I remember my training very well. This is a case where the passengers are most likely more safe IN the aircraft, than when they are dancing in a puddle of fuel and hydraulic fluid outside. As has been said before, Jet Fuel is notriously hard to ignite outside an engine.
IF there would have been a fire, it would have been clear just about immediatly. In which case, you evacuate, no questions asked.

How many cases of runway overrun do you know of where the aircraft burst into flames without the crew or passengers noticing?
If and when a fire occurs, the loss of control is usually a LOT more drastic, with hull seperation and breakup very, very likely. (In which case, again, you evacuate, in a heartbeat, without a doubt.)
Thomas

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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by FlightMate »

Everybody alive? Nobody hurt? Then he made a good decision!

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earthman
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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by earthman »

BigJets wrote:
earthman wrote: I am not saying it is ok, just that it is not surprising.
Then again, just saying 'yeah no surprise there' is not a very constructive criticism.
I'm not sure I get what you mean in your last sentence.
Never mind, just talking to myself.

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Re: Cebu A320 Landing Incident, Passengers (Not) Evacuated

Post by sean1982 »

Couldn't agree more KriVa, I suppose it's kinda pointless to keep repeating ourselves now :p

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