Jet Airways out of Brussels

[RoMax]

On after thought, I wonder if the B789 would not be a better option for them.
You don't replace A332s with B788s, do you ?

That depends. Qatar Airways for example is to replace a part of their A332's by 788's. They have A332's in three configurations: 228 (with first class), 260 and 272 (all have a business class of 24 seats). Their 787's have 254 seats (of which 22 in business). The 787-8 is slightly smaller than the A332 and the 787-9 is slightly bigger, so depending on the plans of the airline, you could use both to replace the A332. The 787-10 is more of a A333 replacement.
But to come back to Jet Airways, they often said they may convert to the 787-9 or order extra 787's which would be -9's or even -10's.

[Flanker2]

I think that the EY model will fail.

I think you'll be surprised.

It will be interesting to see. However, I'm very skeptical. QR and Cargolux were one of the prime examples of such partnerships, but management and other shareholders soon realised that QR's interests were not in line with their own.

I'm also skeptical about the QF-EK partnership.

I think that EY and EK are partnering together behind the scenes and trying to wipe out their weakest and eager competitors with Trojan horse strategies. 9W isn't profitable and there is nothing EY can do to make them profitable. In fact, EY themselves aren't profitable.
Similarly, I think that EY invested in weak Air Berlin which isn't a competitor to them or EK. But they are a huge competitor of LH on the European market, hence, EY/EK have an interest in keeping the enemy of their enemy, a friend.

I also think that EY/EK are keeping this dual existance on purpose and will merge at some point, when they see that they can't get additional traffic rights for the UAE and once DXB is operational at full capacity.

On after thought, I wonder if the B789 would not be a better option for them.
You don't replace A332s with B788s, do you ?

It would be better. More seats at marginally more cost.

BTW, Flanker, what is NAT OS detour ?

Basically with the transatlantic track system, you have to take a detour as you have to respect the tracks and entry points. This results in a detour compared to great circle routing.

[RoMax]

In fact, EY themselves aren't profitable.

EY is 'profitable' since 2011 (14 million dollar, in 2012 it was 42 million).
Als interesting to note. They transported 10.3 million passengers in 2012, of this 10+ million there were 1.2 million comming from codeshare partners and equity share partners (Air Berlin, Virgin Australia, Aer Lingus and Air Seychelles (which they succesfully turned around)).
Remember this airline started operations in November 2003.

[travellover]

Hello. I have read and understood by reading Luchtzak's posts that 9W (24% controled by EY) is moving its hub from BRU to AMS looking for a new strategy. My question is : can a light version of 9W flights remain at BRU ? As they have become a regular player since 2007 on the BRU-India market, a known brand for travel agencies, for corporates, by the tourist and business travellers. With such an important business and touristical potential from its huge number of population, isn' India an added value for at least 1 daily flight to BRU ?
I understand that the indian market is LH exclusive and that India is not a concluding market for SN that has its AFI and NA priorities. Star looks to have missed both AI and 9W.

[travellover]

Remember this airline started operations in November 2003.

And BRU was among their first destinations combined with YYZ (yet !)

[RoMax]

And BRU was among their first destination combined with YYZ (yet !)

And it's still one of their most succesfull/profitable 'non-hub' destinations in Europe, at least that's what the ceo said in Amsterdam in April (commenting on questions why they are flying to MAN, BRU, DUB,... for years, but not to AMS (until recently)).

[LJ]

It will be interesting to see. However, I'm very skeptical. QR and Cargolux were one of the prime examples of such partnerships, but management and other shareholders soon realised that QR's interests were not in line with their own.

There is a difference between QR and Cargolux and EY and 9W (or AB). For starters, 9W isn't as governement controlled as Cargolux is (it's AI which the Indian government toy). Second, 9W is a much different airline than a cargo airline. Finally, EY doesn't have much choice if it wants to compete with EK as the UAE - India doesn't give EY unlimited rights (even worse, it has to share the rights with EK and FlyDubai).

Similarly, I think that EY invested in weak Air Berlin which isn't a competitor to them or EK

Or they invested into AB because they couldn't get traffic right to Germany (most likely reason) and was relatively cheap to get.

With such an important business and touristical potential from its huge number of population, isn' India an added value for at least 1 daily flight to BRU ?

Yet what are the business ties between Belgium and India? Moreover, such a service would need feed from Europe, and that market isn't so high yielding. Personnally, my view is that India may have a lot of potential, it isn't the market many though it would be at present (somehow it seems that the Indian government seems to be good in messing things up). Finally why have a nonstop when you can use all the other European hubs + TK, EY or QR?

[RoMax]

Yet what are the business ties between Belgium and India? Moreover, such a service would need feed from Europe, and that market isn't so high yielding.

Diamonds is the first thing that comes up, though in that case we are 'just' talking about high value cargo and a few very high yield prassengers (I believe these were about the only people using first class when 9W used to the 77W to/from BRU). Certainly not enough to fill a daily A330.
Many highly educated Indians come to Belgium as well (I live in the village where Janssen Pharmaceutica is based, the bus stops are filled with Indian people). They often visit India during the holidays and so on. But again, not enough and mainly low yield VFR traffic.
IT maybe?

Jet Airways was the big chance for BRU to have multiple Indian routes, but without them...
Btw, what was the main reason for Sabena to operate to/from Chennai (IT?)and was it a dedicated route or in combination with another destination?

[crew1990]

So it will be one daily flight to New York area less, so more pax for SN.

Will they continue to serve BRU from India or will they stop all operations?

[nordikcam]

When SN flew to Madras SN had too a very big North Atlantic network : JFK, IAD, ORD, ATL, CIN, YUL, EWR and was a connecting place. BRU needs to have a strong SN !

[brusselsairlinesfan]

Back to 2000/2001, let's admit that the Sabena figures were impressive... supporting substantial growth since the mid-90's!
Brussels airport indeed needs a stronger brussels airlines, generating at least 55% of its whole traffic!

[RoMax]

Back to 2000/2001, let's admit that the Sabena figures were impressive... supporting substantial growth since the mid-90's!

But it was no natural growth. Pax were rising, but yields dropping even faster. With new Airbus aircraft comming in, they had capacity to fill which they couldn't fill, unless they dropped their prices, increased the amount of promotions,... Sabena during that period is a great example of growing in a completly wrong way.

BRU indeed needs a stronger and bigger Brussels Airlines, but not in a way Sabena did it.

[crlhub]

AC could be interested by taking over the YYZ BRU YYZ route..

page 57

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media ... y_2013.pdf

[RoMax]

AC could be interested by taking over the YYZ BRU YYZ route?

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media ... y_2013.pdf

Of course they are. If Jet drops out, AC will jump on the non-stop BRU-YYZ market and SN will take the YUL-BRU route (on which they are the 'natural' operator as a huge percentage flies on to France and Africa).
It's the question if SN will be able to take over YUL as fast as this winter or next summer. Because BOS or another new destination and a second NYC-flight and more flights to Africa should also be added in the comming year (so by summer 2014).

[BrightCedars]

Come to think of it, I don't know what's AC's offer on India is, but I could be a nice idea for AC and SN to replace the scissor hub of 9W with one of their own linking YYZ and YUL to BOM and DEL via BRU, along with SN's other North American routes. Dream on.

[OO-ITR]

Come to think of it, I don't know what's AC's offer on India is, but I could be a nice idea for AC and SN to replace the scissor hub of 9W with one of their own linking YYZ and YUL to BOM and DEL via BRU, along with SN's other North American routes. Dream on.

I'm sur AC would prefer to set this up with LH, if this could be a plan. LH already has a vast network to India

[cnc]

Back to 2000/2001, let's admit that the Sabena figures were impressive... supporting substantial growth since the mid-90's!

But it was no natural growth. Pax were rising, but yields dropping even faster. With new Airbus aircraft comming in, they had capacity to fill which they couldn't fill, unless they dropped their prices, increased the amount of promotions,... Sabena during that period is a great example of growing in a completly wrong way.

BRU indeed needs a stronger and bigger Brussels Airlines, but not in a way Sabena did it.

actually the last 3 years sabena had a good operational result! yet too much side activities, too much personel and too much new birds

[sn-remember]

Basically with the transatlantic track system, you have to take a detour as you have to respect the tracks and entry points. This results in a detour compared to great circle routing.

Thank you Flanker .. Indeed transpolar flights can be more straigthforward ... and more profitable in theory.
In practice you have 5 non stop dailies on the India-NA market:
3 from DEL : AI to JFK and ORD + UA to EWR
2 from BOM : AI to JFK and UA to EWR
DL pulled out from ATL and AA from ORD I think.

Will they continue to serve BRU from India or will they stop all operations?

AC would serve BOM, from bru, codesharing with UA/SN.
9W could in theory consider keeping the profitable del-bru operation, however AI could eventually be a more plausible candidate..? a bit of "dreaming" here but who knows, they might have a dreamliner available just fit for the route. Ultimately SN could be an improbable candidate
On a side note : Speaking of AI they might be tempted by a DEL-YYZ route non stop although AC seem set to start it some day .. I would say DEL_SFO has higher priority for AI (or UA ?)

So it will be one daily flight to New York area less, so more pax for SN.

They need extra feeding to make the route work.

I'm sure AC would prefer to set this up with LH, if this could be a plan. LH already has a vast network to India

Not sure .. BRU has an already installed base on this market and traditionally BOM generates some valuable marginal O/D traffic. Same as ZRH.
yyz-bru-bom along with yyz-del could work nicely in AC timetable imo. We shall see ...

[LJ]

yyz-bru-bom along with yyz-del could work nicely in AC timetable imo. We shall see ...

Why would AC start DEL or BOM? Such a route costs a lot of aircraft capacity (and they doný have it) and they haven't discontinued BOM and DEL for a reason. Even for AC Rouge DEL or BOM would be a time consuming and expensive operation (without much revenue). Do not forget that 9W remains flying to YYZ from DEL or BOM thus it would only create extra capacity in the Canada - India market. Moreover, with the proposed increase between AUH and India (if the new UAE - India bilateral is approved) EY will be an even better competitor in the Canada - India market. Then, one can keep on dreaming....

[sn-remember]

@LJ
There are 2 things that I hear too often among posters, to the point that I find it meaningless :
The first thing consists to say you are dreaming when you put forward an "out of the box" idea, out-of-the-box can be the result of a very torough analysis or just a thought without too much background or expertise. And when I say "background" or "expertise", in my mind, you don't need to be in the profession to automatically justify these qualifiers. Unfortunately, we may see professionals that are not up to their job's requirements. In any ways, dreaming is not a word I like to use with lightness.
And the second widely heard comment consists in saying THis is too low yields, it's not Worth trying.
This second point is equally empty imo, which market or route nowadays is guaranteed to bring in high yields except the well known blue chips exceptions, which so many players used to target, with resuts that have widely proven the limits of the concept.
So, while I would certainly not advocate any unchecked business plan, I would not discard a suggestion on the basis of such easy made points.
.
Now, why would AC start serving India ? Why not ?
Anyways if you had read the paper published here http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media ... y_2013.pdf by crlhub you would not ask yourself this question. The yyz-del route is indeed in the pipeline, or at least being seriously considered by AC marketing team. Nobody can pretend for sure it will happen tomorow but it is on the radar somehow.
And while you raise the yield flag, simply ask yourself how and why it is we have currently 4 daily non-stop heavies just between NYC and India ? Sure the AI operation is not as profitable as expected but it's only half of the story (in the 2 senses)