Jet Airways out of Brussels

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sn26567
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Jet Airways out of Brussels

Post by sn26567 » 21 May 2013, 16:55

According to Etihad CEO James Hogan (now a major shareholder of Jet Airways) in Travel Magazine/Luchtvaartnieuws, Jet Airways thinks about leaving Brussels Airport in favour of Schiphol.

The beginning of the end?
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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 17:22

I wouldn't be suprised if it happens, neither would I be suprised if it doesn't (there are also other plans on the table than just AMS by the way).

From BRU's perspective this is not great, not at all. But it is a oppertunity for SN, United and Air Canada to expand their BRU-North America offer (second daily NYC for SN, YUL for SN and YYZ for AC). But it would be a pitty to lose the India-connections of course, as I don't see SN taking over either BOM or DEL (tough I'm quite sure they can sustain at least one daily BRU-India with their onward connections).

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by Atlantis » 21 May 2013, 19:29

United and Air Canada can increase their presence at BRU, that's for sure. In some time they can have the needed aircraft to offer more destinations. But I don't see SN in this picture. With only 1 long haul per year and with the focus on North-America and Africa they will not go in an other adventure like India.

I'm affraid that this very important link between Belgium and India will disappear via FRA. It's not a secret that LH wanted this extra traffic.

But if Jet Airways will leave BRU, and now we have already so many scripts of it, then there are opportunities for other carriers between Belgium and the US

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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by LJ » 21 May 2013, 19:48

RoMax wrote:I wouldn't be suprised if it happens, neither would I be suprised if it doesn't (there are also other plans on the table than just AMS by the way).
Indeed, and, if we're talking about the same plans (an additional BOM-YYZ via AMS), I do think these are more plausible (though we'll have to wait a few weeks to see if 9W requested slots at AMS).

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 19:50

Atlantis wrote:But I don't see SN in this picture. With only 1 long haul per year and with the focus on North-America and Africa they will not go in an other adventure like India.
I agree on India (tough it would be a pitty), but I'm quite sure BRU is not the only one having some nice (back up) plans on the table in the case Jet leaves BRU. I'm quite sure that when Jet decides to leave the BRU-North America market, SN will speed up their North-American expansion. If they don't, I must agree with members like Flanker when talking about SN/LH's management vision...

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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 19:58

LJ wrote:(though we'll have to wait a few weeks to see if 9W requested slots at AMS).
Didn't they already request slots for this summer (but without using them), or am I thinking about another airline now?

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by liebensd » 21 May 2013, 20:09

Atlantis wrote: I'm affraid that this very important link between Belgium and India will disappear via FRA. It's not a secret that LH wanted this extra traffic.

Doesn't the Indian autorities block a further expansion or increase of LH in India? They are not allowed to operate the A388 on India, that is the reason why they operate the B748 on those routes.


Regards,

Dave

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 20:13

liebensd wrote: Doesn't the Indian autorities block a further expansion or increase of LH in India? They are not allowed to operate the A388 on India, that is the reason why they operate the B748 on those routes.
Indeed, if Air India ever joins Star Alliance, LH may get a few extra rights (but they already got a quite amount during the joining proces of AI, which eventually failed), but so far, they are running at the max on the key routes. LH wants all their India traffic from Germany (doesn't have to be FRA, can also be MUC), but if they don't have the rights, they can't. Swiss and OS also operate to India, don't they (or did OS stop their Indian routes?)?

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by convair » 21 May 2013, 20:30

OS still flies to Delhi (operated by Tyrolean!?!)

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 20:33

convair wrote:OS still flies to Delhi (operated by Tyrolean!?!)
Thanks, I tought so indeed.
(btw, all Austrian flights are "operated by Tyrolean", that was one of the ways to save money and it seems to work, but it still looks strange when you see OS intercontinental flights with "Operated by Tyrolean" :P )

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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by Xanadu_A343 » 21 May 2013, 22:48

RoMax wrote:From BRU's perspective this is not great, not at all. But it is a oppertunity for SN, United and Air Canada to expand their BRU-North America offer (second daily NYC for SN, YUL for SN and YYZ for AC)
I don't think the relocation of the Jet Airways scissor-hub to another airport warrants extra services by other carriers to BRU. How large is the share of Brussels O&D passengers on the Jet flights? I assume most pax on these fly either India-North America or v.v., or connect to/from a Brussels Airlines codeshare flight. Jet Airways will automatically transfer or connect these pax thru another hub. Brussels O&D passengers have a wide choice of flights to North America to choose from at Brussels on SN, UA, DL, US and AC, not to mention connecting via another European hub.

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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by LJ » 21 May 2013, 22:54

RoMax wrote:
LJ wrote:(though we'll have to wait a few weeks to see if 9W requested slots at AMS).
Didn't they already request slots for this summer (but without using them), or am I thinking about another airline now?
No they didn't (at least they didný make it on the slot list). A lot of rumours, but no slot request AFAIK for S13. It was QR which (again) requested, received and returned slots for S13 at AMS.

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by quixoticguide » 21 May 2013, 22:56

liebensd wrote:
Doesn't the Indian autorities block a further expansion or increase of LH in India? They are not allowed to operate the A388 on India, that is the reason why they operate the B748 on those routes.


Regards,

Dave
The main reason that they block the A380 is because EK not LH.
LH B744 vs. B748 is only 18 seats more the EK A380 is 127 or 155 more seats then the LH B748.
Visit my flights on: http://www.quixoticguide.com

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Re: Etihad to invest in Jet Airways

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 23:02

Xanadu_A343 wrote: I don't think the relocation of the Jet Airways scissor-hub to another airport warrants extra services by other carriers to BRU. How large is the share of Brussels O&D passengers on the Jet flights? I assume most pax on these fly either India-North America or v.v., or connect to/from a Brussels Airlines codeshare flight.
AA and 9W dropped two daily JFK-flights at the end of 2012. No need for SN, UA and DL to increase capacity, they simply used it to keep the yields and loadfactor up in the winter. But when another BRU-NYC connection is dropped, for sure UA/SN can operate a 3rd daily flight between BRU and NYC.
About Canada. Currently the plan is already to let AC operate Toronto once SN is able to take over Montreal and AC has a 787 they can use on the BRU-YYZ route (deliveries will start in 2014). If 9W drops BRU-YYZ, this plan will probably be executed faster.

Yes the majority of 9W's traffic is flying India-North America through BRU, but that still means there's a significant percentage of them that do fly BRU-North America or Europe- North America. On of these flights is not enough, but if some flights are dropped (NYC) or the market is growing and one flight is dropped (Canada), the oppertunity is there.

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by RoMax » 21 May 2013, 23:07

quixoticguide wrote:
The main reason that they block the A380 is because EK not LH.
LH B744 vs. B748 is only 18 seats more the EK A380 is 127 or 155 more seats then the LH B748.
If LH could operate the A380 into India, that would have a HUGE impact on the EU-India market. LH operates the A380 with 526 seats, while just 386/362 in the 748i...that's quite a difference.

EK is a big reason, but not the only reason. We are talking about bilaterals here. India could ban the A380 from the UAE, while allowing the German A380's into their country, they don't...

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by sn-remember » 21 May 2013, 23:37

Sad if it must happen...
Although it was multiple times hinted, it did'nt materialize yet ...
There was probably not enough effort invested between sn and 9w to better develop this strategic cooperation.
There was sure ways to do more ito connectivity to Uk notably and Paris ao.
When they dropped MAA it was probably a signal...
.
BRU desperately needs a solid indian partner and 9w was one of choice, making the big boys around often times jealous.
I am surprised how Hogan is taking the reins of the Indian carrier, but also successfully bargaining with AF/KL(even AZ) to feed the AUH "ailing" hub. Bringing in 9w in AMS is obviously a nice addition on the negociation table with AF/KL. It's remarkable that ey joining Skyteam is not even in the agenda. I find it "well played" from Hogan who managed at low cost to take the lead among strong players such as 9w,af/kl while the auh hub is far from thriving and ey barely fly 70 aircrafts. By far the weakest player among the G3. Taking a minority stake in 9w was a very clever move, its true that the GOI would have blocked any similar move from say lh or af. Making AB change alliance to join Skyteam is to be expected very soon.
All this to say this is a SERIOUS setback for lh in particular while I believe they (lh) had some nice cards in hand to avoid this calamitous scenario. Remember the star alliance failed negociations with 9w, the mismanagement of it all (AI, GOI etc..) and the arrogance I would say that could have been inaccurately/unfairly conveyed by the lh management. The result is quite negative for bru, for lh and for star.
Among other negative recent developments let's mention :
- US airlines recently lost to 1W (a blow of course but probably difficult to avoid)
- the selling of bmi to ba can be considered as a setback (ok debatable)
- partnership with India jeopardised (a very damageable lost opportunity)
- no partner among the G3 .. those are flexing muscles in a very provocative -and upsetting- way these days...
True the Tk partnership holds but what benefit is lh just now retrieving ?
On the chinese front, things are not so rosy either.
..
Back to practicals:
Why would lh limit their focuse on developing fra/muc/zrh/vie only and not add bru in the lot ?
This would again be a major mistake (one more to add to the list).
Therefore, should 9w quit bru, the means to maintain a link between India and bru should seriously be investigated.
Possibilities:
1. AI (lots of "if's")
2. UA ( à la DL currently serving the AMS-BOM with their own metal)
SN unfortunately is too slow in their recovery process and far from having reached the capability to consider it.
I read that some here see the 9W announced defect as an opportunity to take yyz and/or ewr routes over.
Let's be careful here .. Feeding is needed.

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by RoMax » 22 May 2013, 00:06

sn-remember wrote: There was probably not enough effort invested between sn and 9w to better develop this strategic cooperation.
SN couldn't do much more, they can't beat AF-KL in connections. Look at KL's offer in the UK, they offer more UK destinations than Heathrow (which is not that difficult to beat btw, as they have a limited domestic offer, but still, they have the biggest UK offer of any other EU legacy carrier).
sn-remember wrote: I am surprised how Hogan is taking the reins of the Indian carrier, but also successfully bargaining with AF/KL(even AZ) to feed the AUH "ailing" hub. Bringing in 9w in AMS is obviously a nice addition on the negociation table with AF/KL. It's remarkable that ey joining Skyteam is not even in the agenda. I find it "well played" from Hogan who managed at low cost to take the lead among strong players such as 9w,af/kl while the auh hub is far from thriving and ey barely fly 70 aircrafts. By far the weakest player among the G3. Taking a minority stake in 9w was a very clever move, its true that the GOI would have blocked any similar move from say lh or af. Making AB change alliance to join Skyteam is to be expected very soon.
Hogan is just a briliant airline ceo (and so is the ceo of Qatar, and the one of Emirates, and the Cathay Pacific ceo, the ceo of the Hong Kong Airport, the previous ceo of Singapore Airlines,... oh well, there are many of them, just not a lot of them work in the EU). He hates the way traditional airlines in Europe, the US and other "grown markets" run their business. Though he admits it's much easier for him as he had the ability to start with a clean sheet, while the big European carrier carry a "shitty history" resulting in an outdated business strategy that's not working anymore.
About EY and AUH...don't get confuses by the size of them. They don't focus on size, they focus on quality. They don't want to be the biggest, the want to be the best. They are growing fast and they are profitable. Every goal they had set in the past was met or exceeded. Don't forget this airline is barely 10 years old (launched operations in November 2003). Qatar and Emirates are much older. You can't define "weak" from size, not even profitability in this case because they are so young and growing so fast.

Skyteam is not on their agenda because that wouldn't work for them. As Hogan said at a recent lecture in Amsterdam, they are not that big, they wouldn't have the power they want in an alliance. They want to work with the airlines from which they can benefit and who share the same goals and ideas. At the day of the lecture, a codeshare deal with Air Canada was signed, their 44th. They have not plans to stop working with any of them because they are closer to one or another alliance.
AF-KL, just like the other big EU airlines didn't want to anything from EY, but eventually agreed to send a team to Abu Dhabi and Etihad showed them how they do it,how they see it and how they want it to be in the future. KLM was convinced, Air France took some more months, but now they are on the same line and they can greatly benefit from eachother.
sn-remember wrote: - no partner among the G3 .. those are flexing muscles in a very provocative -and upsetting- way these days...
True the Tk partnership holds but what benefit is lh just now retrieving ?
Don't underestimate the power of TK. Hogan (he insists on it that you call him James though, even if you are a student, you can simply approach him calling him James, he is way more open as ceo of one of the MEB3 than a regular KLM manager...oh well "European managers attitude"... :roll: ) also commented on that in Amsterdam. Everyone always talks about the MEB3, but they forget TK which is a bigger threat to them in some markets than one of the other MEB3 carriers. LH can benefit from that carrier for sure. But they don't have a choice, they have to work with TK and they may loose pax to TK, but if they don't work with them, they'll loose even more.

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by Passenger » 22 May 2013, 00:30

Allow me to quote from a news article from The India Times - 16th Nov 2011:

Belgium has conferred the 'Commandeur of the Order of Leopold II', one of its highest civilian distinctions, on Jet Airways Chairman Naresh Goyal for "meritorious service and efforts to foster business and cultural ties" with that country.
...
Belgian Ambassador Pierre Vaesen presented the medallion to Goyal at a ceremony here last evening in the presence of visiting Belgian Minister and President of Flanders, Kris Peeters, a press release said.
...
Speaking on the occasion, Vaesen congratulated Goyal on being conferred this "highest distinction, which is a recognition of your remarkable career in global aviation and of the lead taken by you in helping establish and nurture Indo -Belgian cultural and economic ties."
...
Accepting the award, Goyal said he was "deeply humbled to be considered worthy of the conferment of the Commandeur of the Order of Leopold II and offer my heartfelt thanks to His Majesty, the Government and citizens of Belgium."
...
Maintaining that he accepted the honour on behalf of the Jet Airways family, he said he would continue "our combined endeavour to add further value towards nurturing and enhancing Indo-Belgian economic and cultural ties in the years ahead".

Source :
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... er-belgium

And in Dutch only - and direct from the archive of the Flemish Minister-President himself:
http://www.krispeeters.be/sites/kp.warp ... 395260.pdf

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by flightlover » 22 May 2013, 00:48

Passenger wrote:...
Maintaining that he accepted the honour on behalf of the Jet Airways family, he said he would continue "our combined endeavour to add further value towards nurturing and enhancing Indo-Belgian economic and cultural ties in the years ahead".
It sound nice indeed. However in business words are often not that much worth at all. Not saying he is lying. Just stating there is something like the flow of the moment.

Hope he is wright though.

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Re: Jet Airways out of Brussels?

Post by sn-remember » 22 May 2013, 01:43

sn-remember wrote: Making AB change alliance to join Skyteam is to be expected very soon.
Sorry to quote myself in the first place ..
What I mean by the above is that AB joining ST would be more of an AF request than EY. Wonder if they can pass it through.
RoMax wrote:SN couldn't do much more, they can't beat AF-KL in connections.
I agree, in a way.
However it's always possible to do better.
MAA coupled with IAH is something that I found worth studying. Anyways I don't have all the clues here, simply I am not sure sn AND lh (which is the driving force) did the maximum (as needed and requested by 9w) regarding the development and success of the bru scisor hub.
RoMax wrote:They are growing fast and they are profitable. Every goal they had set in the past was met or exceeded. Don't forget this airline is barely 10 years old (launched operations in November 2003). Qatar and Emirates are much older. You can't define "weak" from size, not even profitability in this case because they are so young and growing so fast.
(..) they wouldn't have the power they want in an alliance
Ey never were profitable.
They are the weakest in my opinion in terms of business. Any carrier other than one of the GC's would have had to reconsider their business plan.
More than any of the GC3's, they needed partnership with operators in India and Europe in order not to be dwarfed by the other 2. It's the credit of James ;) to have perceived and achieved this goal.
Indeed, Tk are poised as a solid contender and this new strategy of ey is not without impacting them.
RoMax wrote: KLM was convinced, Air France took some more months, but now they are on the same line and they can greatly benefit from eachother.
It further weakens the alliance paradigm and empowers ey and auh. The benefit to 9w is obvious since they get the cash they needed to keep them afloat and sailing. The benefit to AF-KL is also obvious considering the addtional ties such as
1. 9w switching from bru to ams and further develop from there (seems in the process of realisation)
2. 9w joining ST
3. AB joining ST
4. partning with DL in the US (a big win for ey)
The combo of this could indeed boost operations for both 9w, AF-KL and of course EY through greater feeding. I wonder how dl could join the party..
We still miss points 2 and 3 however ...
Obviously the big loser is lh and Star which screwed their access to the Indian subcontinent considered as vital. You'll see, they will end up in bed with AI. Well, the GOI would have had the last word ?
RoMax wrote: LH can benefit from that carrier for sure. But they don't have a choice, they have to work with TK and they may loose pax to TK, but if they don't work with them, they'll loose even more.
Agreed
But they are competing head to head on all routes except some markets in ME and Central Asia. SN is in direct competition with them on some EAfrican routes also.
That's life :-)

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