Several media reporting a National Air Cargo 747-400BCF crashed at Bagram, Afghanistan.
Cause isn't known for now.
A picture just after the crash shows the disaster
National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
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Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Ex Air France F-GISE
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
And ex TF-NAD
Construction Number (MSN) 25630
Line Number 960
Aircraft Type Boeing 747-428(M)
First Flight 29-01-1993
Age 20.3 Years
Written Off on 29-04-2013
Construction Number (MSN) 25630
Line Number 960
Aircraft Type Boeing 747-428(M)
First Flight 29-01-1993
Age 20.3 Years
Written Off on 29-04-2013
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- Posts: 710
- Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Wow, looks like a take off stall.
And the people in those buses have a real good guardian angel.
And the people in those buses have a real good guardian angel.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Weight shift was reported causing the stall. Afraid not much the pilots could do..
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
There is an interesting analysis of the crash sequence shown by the video in FlightGlobal:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-385338/
Boeing Statement on National Air Cargo Company Accident
The Boeing Company extends sincere condolences to the families and friends of the crew who perished in the crash of a National Air Cargo flight near Bagram, Afghanistan. At the request of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, Boeing will provide technical assistance to investigating authorities.
In accordance with international protocol governing aviation accident investigations, all inquiries about the investigation should be directed to the Afghan Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (MoTCA).
SEATTLE, April 30, 2013
NTSB has sent a team of experts to Bagram.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ce-385338/
Boeing Statement on National Air Cargo Company Accident
The Boeing Company extends sincere condolences to the families and friends of the crew who perished in the crash of a National Air Cargo flight near Bagram, Afghanistan. At the request of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, Boeing will provide technical assistance to investigating authorities.
In accordance with international protocol governing aviation accident investigations, all inquiries about the investigation should be directed to the Afghan Ministry of Transport and Civil Aviation (MoTCA).
SEATTLE, April 30, 2013
NTSB has sent a team of experts to Bagram.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
you mean as in moving cargo?Tomskii wrote:Weight shift was reported causing the stall. Afraid not much the pilots could do..
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Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
That is exactly what he means.cnc wrote:you mean as in moving cargo?Tomskii wrote:Weight shift was reported causing the stall. Afraid not much the pilots could do..
This can happen due to bad locking of the cargo pallets in the plane, or (incorrect) use of not enough/faulty tie-down materials.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Imagine that at BRU!
That's a crash straight on the ring or on Evere.
That's a crash straight on the ring or on Evere.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
we are talking about a (fully loaded?) 747 with the engines as good as on full power.
i can't see how a pallet of cargo moving could do this.
its not like it has the space to move 5m from the left to the right.
any 747 pilots here?
i can't see how a pallet of cargo moving could do this.
its not like it has the space to move 5m from the left to the right.
any 747 pilots here?
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Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
No but it has the room to move 60m down the back.cnc wrote:we are talking about a (fully loaded?) 747 with the engines as good as on full power.
i can't see how a pallet of cargo moving could do this.
its not like it has the space to move 5m from the left to the right.
any 747 pilots here?
If it is a heavy vehicle, this could cause the Centre of Gravity to shift significantly, up to a point where the Autopilot cannot cope with the change of attitude, or the pilot can't trim it fast enough maybe?
It could as well end up being out of the flying envelope. Thus being irrecoverable.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Pallets? It were 5 heavy armoured vehicles. If one of them was not securely anchored, it could easily move and displace the other vehicles as well.
As mentioned in the above analysis, the aircraft was ascending very fast, with a large angle against the soil level.
The loadmaster (I think he was amongst the victims) could have known his moment of glory in a trial if he had survived.
As mentioned in the above analysis, the aircraft was ascending very fast, with a large angle against the soil level.
The loadmaster (I think he was amongst the victims) could have known his moment of glory in a trial if he had survived.
André
ex Sabena #26567
ex Sabena #26567
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
oh the payload was armoured vehicles?sn26567 wrote:Pallets? It were 5 heavy armoured vehicles. If one of them was not securely anchored, it could easily move and displace the other vehicles as well.
As mentioned in the above analysis, the aircraft was ascending very fast, with a large angle against the soil level.
The loadmaster (I think he was amongst the victims) could have known his moment of glory in a trial if he had survived.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
cnc wrote:we are talking about a (fully loaded?) 747 with the engines as good as on full power.
i can't see how a pallet of cargo moving could do this.
its not like it has the space to move 5m from the left to the right.
any 747 pilots here?
Not a pilot, but quite familiar with weight and balance.
It's not a question of moving 5 m from left to right, but from forward to aft.
The known facts are : the a/c was loaded with 5 armoured vehicles weighing around 25000lbs each.
This is non standard cargo and is loaded as such. In loadcontrol terms this is what is called "floating pallets". This means that no (or limited number) of the locks provided are used and that the cargo is strapped down according to the company/manufacturers rules. The number of straps is determined by the weight of the item, the strength of the starps/fittings. All weight and balance manuals will also show the forces these straps have to withstand (2.1 up/1.5 fwd, aft, sideways). In the manual you can also find which straps can be used. Most common are the ones with fittings certified up to 5000lbs/2250kg
A quick calculation shows : assuming 1 verhicle weighs 15000kg.
fwd straps 15000x1.5/2250 gives 10 straps
sideways 15000x1.5/2250 gives 10 straps (x2)
aft 15000x1.5/2250 gives 10straps
upwards 15000x2.1/2250 gives 14straps
This is just a minimum. Additional rules can dictate higher nr of straps.
I can assure you that when you have to tiedown 5 such vehicles, you'll be busy quite some time.
Hope this sheds some light on this matter
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Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
Though you can load vehicles without pallets in some planes, in a 747F you do need them. There is a whole loading system installed which makes it almost impossible to load vehicles without a pallet underneath.sn26567 wrote:Pallets? It were 5 heavy armoured vehicles. If one of them was not securely anchored, it could easily move and displace the other vehicles as well.
As mentioned in the above analysis, the aircraft was ascending very fast, with a large angle against the soil level.
The loadmaster (I think he was amongst the victims) could have known his moment of glory in a trial if he had survived.
What is done sometime is to load empty pallets at first to make it possible to drive cars inside.
Besides, these pallets are not only for speeding up loading but also to disperse the weight over a larger area. Something you really want to do especially with HEAVY army vehicles as suggested.
ps: A 'fully' loaded a/c doesn't mean there is no open space left. It may just be at max take-off weight.
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
true but the load should be placed to both balance the aircraft (trim) and to limit the possible movement in case part of the load gets a free ticket to move.flightlover wrote: ps: A 'fully' loaded a/c doesn't mean there is no open space left. It may just be at max take-off weight.
i've done my share of 747 loadplans and we placed vehicles always on pallets but i can imagene setting a massive vehicle loose on such an angle could cause to "free" the vehicles behind it.
didn't know what the load was before
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- Posts: 710
- Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26
Re: National Air Cargo crashed in Bagram, Afghanistan
I fully agree with you. Just wanted to make it clear to SN26567 pallets where used although vehicles where loaded.cnc wrote: true but the load should be placed to both balance the aircraft (trim) and to limit the possible movement in case part of the load gets a free ticket to move.
i've done my share of 747 loadplans and we placed vehicles always on pallets but i can imagene setting a massive vehicle loose on such an angle could cause to "free" the vehicles behind it.
didn't know what the load was before
Nice load vs tie-down calculation btw 9vsmu.