Boeing 737 (MAX) news

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737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 08 May 2019, 12:05

Bracebrace wrote:
08 May 2019, 10:50
And I do not consider all JAF pilots completely prone to that confusion idea.
Of course. Nobody said that.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sn26567 » 16 May 2019, 12:52

This morning, Boeing representation for EU and NATO informed us of the following:

Boeing has completed development of the software update, associated simulator testing and our engineering test flight. To date, Boeing has flown the updated software on the 737 MAX for more than 360 hours on 207 flights.

We are now providing additional information to address Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) requests that include additional detail on how pilots interact with the airplane controls and displays in different flight scenarios. Once the requests are addressed, we will work with the FAA to schedule their certification test flight and submit final certification documentation.
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sn26567 » 16 May 2019, 18:59

A very good article (as usual) from Dominic Gates in The Seattle Times, analysing the possibility of pilot errors in the two recent 737 MAX crashes:

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... x-crashes/

Starting with a very arrogant statement:

The lead Republican congressman blamed errors by the Indonesian and Ethiopian pilots for the two deadly MAX crashes in those countries. “Pilots trained in the United States would have successfully been able to handle” the emergencies on both jets, said Rep. Sam Graves of Missouri, ranking member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

But this statement was based on a report commissioned and paid for by ... institutional investors with large holdings in Boeing stock!

After discussing with many pilots and specialists worldwide, Dominic Gates concludes that the major mistake is in Boeing having to develop MCAS to get the MAX flying.
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 16 May 2019, 20:10

sn26567 wrote:
16 May 2019, 18:59
A very good article (as usual) from Dominic Gates in The Seattle Times, analysing the possibility of pilot errors in the two recent 737 MAX crashes:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... x-crashes/
Starting with a very arrogant statement:
The lead Republican congressman blamed errors by the Indonesian and Ethiopian pilots for the two deadly MAX crashes in those countries. “Pilots trained in the United States would have successfully been able to handle” the emergencies on both jets, said Rep. Sam Graves of Missouri, ranking member of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee.

But this statement was based on a report commissioned and paid for by ... institutional investors with large holdings in Boeing stock!

After discussing with many pilots and specialists worldwide, Dominic Gates concludes that the major mistake is in Boeing having to develop MCAS to get the MAX flying.
Maybe that report was commissioned and paid for by investors. But the article also states: "Graves was repeating the main points in a report written by two pilots at a major U.S. airline that pointed to pilot error as “the most consequential factor” in both crashes".

Me thinks we won't find that report online, as it will probably have restricted access. But it seems the report was not written by investors - only commissioned.

- - -

Please also note Republican congressman Sam Graves is also a commercial pilot. And please also note what else Rep. Sam Graves said about the crashes:
"...But the Journal and Seattle Times stories indicate that the 737 MAX may have other shortcomings. They said evidence suggests that the pilots were unable to pull the plane up even after cutting off power to the automated system and attempting to turn a manual crank wheel, as training dictates. After that failed, the pilots then apparently reactivated the automated system, the newspapers said.

Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), the top Republican on the House Transportation Committee and a pilot with a commercial-grade license, said that points to a problem with the pilots' response. “The last thing you do is reengage the damn thing. You just don’t do that,” Graves said. “The only scenario I would ever see that they would possibly switch back is because they don’t know how to fly the damn airplane.” Graves continued to question the pilots’ training, in particular asking how the 29-year-old captain of the Ethiopian plane could have had 8,000 flight hours. “We got guys retiring at 65 with 25,000 hours. He was either Hercules or he was pencil-whipping his logbook,” Graves said. “I question that every bit as much as I question Ethiopian Airlines putting a co-pilot in there with 200 hours. Doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.”

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... sh-1319958
For both crashes, it looks like we're heading towards "main cause" and "contributing factors".

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 18 May 2019, 20:03

TUI NL will do a second attempt on Sunday to ferry PH-TFO (737 MAX 8) from Sofia to Amsterdam.

I got this information: "PH-TFO will fly flaps 1 and max 250 kts to avoid activation of the MCAS. Cruising alt will be FL230, and a fuel stop is planned in Cagliari".

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 18 May 2019, 20:25

Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 20:03
TUI NL will do a second attempt on Sunday to ferry PH-TFO (737 MAX 8) from Sofia to Amsterdam.

I got this information: "PH-TFO will fly flaps 1 and max 250 kts to avoid activation of the MCAS. Cruising alt will be FL230, and a fuel stop is planned in Cagliari".
Interesting routing for sure :
SOF-CAG-AMS.jpg
SOF-CAG-AMS.jpg (50.45 KiB) Viewed 1430 times

:?

H.A.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 18 May 2019, 20:44

And FL230 with flaps extended is not possible.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 18 May 2019, 22:32


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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sn26567 » 19 May 2019, 10:58

Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 22:32
An in-depth article from the BBC:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... ly_crashes
This is indeed excellent journalism. And Ethiopian took advantage of it, contradicting the arrogance of US congressmen blaming the Ethiopian pilots and pretending that American pilots could have saved the situation:
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 19 May 2019, 11:50

sn26567 wrote:
19 May 2019, 10:58
Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 22:32
An in-depth article from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... ly_crashes
This is indeed excellent journalism. And Ethiopian took advantage of it... ...
Quite obvious from Ethiopian. They were involved in a deadly crash, and when only Boeing is blamed for that crash, Ethiopian's international safety image is kind of restored.

sn26567 wrote:
19 May 2019, 10:58
Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 22:32
An in-depth article from the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/id ... ly_crashes
... ...contradicting the arrogance of US congressmen blaming the Ethiopian pilots and pretending that American pilots could have saved the situation
I haven't read that US congressmen pretended that American pilots could have saved the situation. Are you referring to that Politico article? If so, your reaction isn't accurate: it was just one congresman, and he's not only a politician but also a commercial pilot. And he didn't say that US pilots could have saved the situation:
"...But the Journal and Seattle Times stories indicate that the 737 MAX may have other shortcomings. They said evidence suggests that the pilots were unable to pull the plane up even after cutting off power to the automated system and attempting to turn a manual crank wheel, as training dictates. After that failed, the pilots then apparently reactivated the automated system, the newspapers said.

Rep. Sam Graves (R-Mo.), the top Republican on the House Transportation Committee and a pilot with a commercial-grade license, said that points to a problem with the pilots' response. “The last thing you do is reengage the damn thing. You just don’t do that,” Graves said. “The only scenario I would ever see that they would possibly switch back is because they don’t know how to fly the damn airplane.” Graves continued to question the pilots’ training, in particular asking how the 29-year-old captain of the Ethiopian plane could have had 8,000 flight hours. “We got guys retiring at 65 with 25,000 hours. He was either Hercules or he was pencil-whipping his logbook,” Graves said. “I question that every bit as much as I question Ethiopian Airlines putting a co-pilot in there with 200 hours. Doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.”

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 19 May 2019, 12:38

You got it. That's all bla-bla-bla for the media, aviation fanatics, the lambda public etc etc.

A C172 pilot says something in a newspaper: it's reliable for some people, it's complete bullshit for some professionals. Some guy say US pilots would have saved the plane: some people will consider that arrogant (probably true), some people will believe it.

All these articles are nothing else than opinions. Pure opinions. Everyone has different opinions and share that on the internet, sometimes with absolutely 0 background to be credible but some people seem to like that anyway. Food for the internet.

Things like "pilots could have done nothing more" or "US pilots would have saved the plane" are both click-click articles. One probably more interesting and complete than an other, but... not really the truth in any case.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 19 May 2019, 12:43

Passenger wrote:
18 May 2019, 20:03
TUI NL will do a second attempt on Sunday to ferry PH-TFO (737 MAX 8) from Sofia to Amsterdam.

I got this information: "PH-TFO will fly flaps 1 and max 250 kts to avoid activation of the MCAS. Cruising alt will be FL230, and a fuel stop is planned in Cagliari".
This second attempt is cancelled.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sn26567 » 19 May 2019, 18:28

After two faulty Boeing jets crash, the Trump administration blames foreign pilots

The U.S. aviation system needs urgently to restore the world’s confidence after two crashes of Boeing 737 Max jets.

Instead, the Trump administration’s top aviation official, goaded by some Republican lawmakers, informed the world Wednesday that the problem isn’t that Boeing put a faulty aircraft into the skies, nor that the Federal Aviation Administration’s lax oversight kept it flying. The trouble, they argued, comes from lousy foreign pilots — particularly the ones on Ethiopian Airlines and Indonesia’s Lion Air who died struggling to pull the Max jets from death plunges.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 19 May 2019, 19:04

sn26567 wrote:
19 May 2019, 18:28
After two faulty Boeing jets crash, the Trump administration blames foreign pilots

The U.S. aviation system needs urgently to restore the world’s confidence after two crashes of Boeing 737 Max jets.

Instead, the Trump administration’s top aviation official, goaded by some Republican lawmakers, informed the world Wednesday that the problem isn’t that Boeing put a faulty aircraft into the skies, nor that the Federal Aviation Administration’s lax oversight kept it flying. The trouble, they argued, comes from lousy foreign pilots — particularly the ones on Ethiopian Airlines and Indonesia’s Lion Air who died struggling to pull the Max jets from death plunges.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... story.html
I know you don't like Trump, but why don't you mention that there was unanimity by the Democrats ànd Republicans that the certification system failed, and that this is the main cause for 737 MAX debackle?

The above quote "lousy foreign pilots" is put out of context. Sam Graves (Republican congressman ànd commercial pilot) replied to the fact that the Ethiopian crew reactivated the automated system:
In fact, the Ethiopian pilots tried to follow the procedures that Boeing and the FAA had outlined for such an emergency, the Journal reported, citing people briefed on the findings. Recent flight simulations have indicated that the pilots on the Indonesian jet may have had just 40 seconds to figure out what was wrong before their plane plunged into the sea, The New York Times reported last week. Much of the initial scrutiny for both crashes has focused on an automated software system that was designed to automatically push the plane’s nose down if it appeared to be climbing too steeply. But the Journal and Seattle Times stories indicate that the 737 MAX may have other shortcomings. They said evidence suggests that the pilots were unable to pull the plane up even after cutting off power to the automated system and attempting to turn a manual crank wheel, as training dictates. After that failed, the pilots then apparently reactivated the automated system, the newspapers said.

Rep. Sam Graves, the top Republican on the House Transportation Committee and a pilot with a commercial-grade license, said that points to a problem with the pilots' response. “The last thing you do is reengage the damn thing. You just don’t do that,” Graves said. “The only scenario I would ever see that they would possibly switch back is because they don’t know how to fly the damn airplane.” Graves continued to question the pilots’ training, in particular asking how the 29-year-old captain of the Ethiopian plane could have had 8,000 flight hours. “We got guys retiring at 65 with 25,000 hours. He was either Hercules or he was pencil-whipping his logbook,” Graves said. “I question that every bit as much as I question Ethiopian Airlines putting a co-pilot in there with 200 hours. Doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.”

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 19 May 2019, 20:34

Hey, Passenger, maybe you could welcome this American commercial pilot to the modern world by telling him 8000 hours for a 29 y.o. pilot is nothing abnormal outside of the US...

Don’t make yourself more ridiculous than you already are. There are many articles online from the US that say their pilots wouldn’t have crashed the plane.

Do I need to say that some Ethiopian pilots are trained @
Boeing directly? :lol:

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 19 May 2019, 21:48

346 people have keen killed, due to fatal errors from aviation professionals. Non aviation professionals therefore have the right to discuss what caused their death. Let me quote Rick Larsen, president of the US Congress Subcommittee Aviation (and note: he is a Democrat): “…Congress has an obligation to the traveling public and the victims of these accidents and their families to ensure the safety of air travel…”

I brought up Geert Noels, a non aviation professional with aviation skills and with relevant knowledge of the aviation trade. You don’t like his message? Fine, no problem with that. But then, don’t ridiculize his statement by minimizing his relevancy. Geert Noels is more then “a C172 pilot” (by the way: it’s not a Cessna): he is one of Belgium's leading macro-economists. De Morgen says he is one of the ten most intelligent people in the north. In his column “Noelsspeaks” in De Tijd, he described what went wrong: not the FAA, but Boeing certificated the Boeing 737 MAX. And Boeing did so because their 737 MAX design sucks (says Geert Noels).

Allow me to post that opinion article again:
https://www.tijd.be/opinie/column/leer- ... 21323.html

What Geert Noels describes, is the unconvenienth truth for all aviation professionals involved with the 737 MAX, including some av24.be-members. For me, that explains who some shoot the messenger.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 20 May 2019, 11:20

Passenger wrote:
19 May 2019, 21:48

What Geert Noels describes, is the unconvenienth truth for all aviation professionals involved with the 737 MAX, including some av24.be-members. For me, that explains who some shoot the messenger.
:mrgreen:

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sean1982 » 20 May 2019, 16:16

737MAX wrote:
20 May 2019, 11:20
Passenger wrote:
19 May 2019, 21:48

What Geert Noels describes, is the unconvenienth truth for all aviation professionals involved with the 737 MAX, including some av24.be-members. For me, that explains who some shoot the messenger.
:mrgreen:
Hahaha, Sure, the macro-economist (and lets not forget a Cessna pilot) is right and the majority of the professional aviation community isn’t :lol:

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 20 May 2019, 16:38

sean1982 wrote:
20 May 2019, 16:16
Hahaha, Sure, the macro-economist (and lets not forget a Cessna pilot) is right and the majority of the professional aviation community isn’t :lol:
I'm pretty sure that a majority of your "majority of the professional aviation community", if they would read the full article from Geert Noels, will say that he might be right indeed. Including his final verdict that the 737 MAX will get approval from the FAA because the financial and economical interests for the USA are too high to reject approval.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sean1982 » 20 May 2019, 16:51

Passenger wrote:
20 May 2019, 16:38
sean1982 wrote:
20 May 2019, 16:16
Hahaha, Sure, the macro-economist (and lets not forget a Cessna pilot) is right and the majority of the professional aviation community isn’t :lol:
I'm pretty sure that a majority of your "majority of the professional aviation community", if they would read the full article from Geert Noels, will say that he might be right indeed. Including his final verdict that the 737 MAX will get approval from the FAA because the financial and economical interests for the USA are too high to reject approval.
I have read the article very clearly and I still think its bullshit. your analogy doesnt make sense either as every airline first and foremost wants to operate safely, no matter what type they fly or have on order

Secondly, have I not said before I do not want you mentioning my employer? Wasn't that clear enough?

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