Boeing 737 (MAX) news

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Poiu
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Poiu » 07 May 2019, 12:21

sn26567 wrote:
07 May 2019, 11:35
cathay belgium wrote:
07 May 2019, 09:22
Hi,

With all respect to André Berger.. but in light of the last news we heard of Boeing, he surely is promoting his new fleet ( it is needed because who want to fly that plane now anyway )...
Such messages make me laugh and hoped he was a bit smarter.
Reads to me as TUI is just like Boeing thinking of money above safety.
Why not awaiting real results on thé facts ?
Poor post...

CXB
Exactly my opinion. Andre Berger has shown in the past he was a staunch supporter of the 737 MAX, no matter what happened. Has this aeroplane received the MCAS software corrections? If not, you won't see me on it. If yes, I would first wait to have it validated by FAA, or better, by EASA, knowing the links between Boeing and FAA.
If André Berger would be the pilot in command, I don’t have any problem being a passenger on it.
Unfortunately not all pilots have over 20000 hrs of B737 under their belt and haven’t been a TRI on it for over 30 years.
When it goes tits up the MAX requires flying skills which today’s pilots (JAF probably being a rare exception) don’t have anymore! So either you train adequately either you correct the hard and software, preferably both!

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cathay belgium
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by cathay belgium » 07 May 2019, 12:39

737MAX wrote:
07 May 2019, 11:39
sn26567 wrote:
07 May 2019, 11:35

Exactly my opinion. Andre Berger has shown in the past he was a staunch supporter of the 737 MAX, no matter what happened. Has this aeroplane received the MCAS software corrections? If not, you won't see me on it. If yes, I would first wait to have it validated by FAA, or better, by EASA, knowing the links between Boeing and FAA.
One question here (open to everybody of course):

Do you believe the Ethiopian crash wouldn't have happened if the MCAS software had been corrected?
If yes, why?

Euh... I, we ,Boeing don't know this... Yet...
We miss a lot of real facts...
Fact is that Boeing knew it could give a problem and that they didn't care about it... In their race to beat thé NEO...
A fatal fault...
Thinking about money above safety is thé main fault..
In fact a big error in hardware correcting with Dome software just to beat airbus is a disgrace... To Mighty Boeing...

But money rules the world..

Have one mAX in my planned flights list, hoping they switch it to An old B757 ;)
Last edited by cathay belgium on 07 May 2019, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.
New types planned for 2019 : A223
New types flown : AN24,AW139,B737MAX8,B763nonER,EMB110 Bandeirante, Shorts360,Autogire MTOsport2010

Bracebrace
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Bracebrace » 07 May 2019, 13:23

Poiu wrote:
07 May 2019, 12:21
When it goes tits up the MAX requires flying skills which today’s pilots (JAF probably being a rare exception) don’t have anymore!
Maybe, maybe not. Reading the Boeing 737 FCTM, it says you might need a lot of altitude. As far as I know JAF cannot create altitude.

"Noise prooves nothing"

737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 07 May 2019, 13:28

@cathay pacific; how do you mean, "I, we, Boeing don't know this... Yet..."? Haven't you read the preliminary accident report? You probably have, but the thing is you don't know what to think about it since you are not a 737 instructor with 20.000 hours on type (please don't take that as a critic against you, everyone is free to have his opinion and I'm curious to hear different opinions on this topic, it is (almost) always interesting to read what the public thinks...).

One thing seems to be obvious indeed; Boeing rushed the MAX in a race against the NEO. But is that new? It isn't, everybody knows that since a long time. What happened behind the scenes is becoming more and more clear and scandalous, I think we agree on that matter.

I see a lot of people posting about the "AOA disagree" alert (what does that really mean to you, non-pilots?), about the MCAS software (same question), about updates etc etc... everybody judges again here without having basic knowledge. So, if you say somebody is wrong (Andre Berger for instance), then at least say why (one more time, it's not a critic against you or other people who think the same way, but please don't just say "nah he's wrong" "yeah he's right").

That's why I'm asking you guys; why will you feel safer in the MAX once the updates will be certified?
Do you think the MCAS is the main cause of the crash?

737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 07 May 2019, 13:42

Bracebrace wrote:
07 May 2019, 13:23
Poiu wrote:
07 May 2019, 12:21
When it goes tits up the MAX requires flying skills which today’s pilots (JAF probably being a rare exception) don’t have anymore!
Maybe, maybe not. Reading the Boeing 737 FCTM, it says you might need a lot of altitude. As far as I know JAF cannot create altitude.

"Noise prooves nothing"
Sure but we can make noise without willing to prove anything ;)

Bracebrace
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Bracebrace » 07 May 2019, 13:46

* removed * prefer it this way :)
Last edited by Bracebrace on 07 May 2019, 19:45, edited 2 times in total.

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sn26567
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by sn26567 » 07 May 2019, 13:54

luchtzak wrote:
07 May 2019, 07:55
Tweet removed. I wonder why :?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Desert Rat
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Desert Rat » 07 May 2019, 14:51

Shanghai Airlines is flying their Maxxes from SHA to Lanzhou, meaning that the Max will not fly back soon in PRC.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by cathay belgium » 07 May 2019, 15:41

Hi,

As a passenger... Would I feel safe in a MAX with the software update... No....
( And yes I was a Boeing fan before... )
Because who says the software update is enough and with the mistakes-faults in certification and the Boeing rush to get thé Max airborne again asap...

It's not a question of technics , software now ...but more a matter of trust in the organisations...

It will take a time to see the Max flying again for months, CXB-less :) , before we can forget that episode...

Would still prefer to see an old 738 then those v shaped wingtipped killermachine at my gate... for a year of two ;)

Guess a lot with me !

Maybe better to leave the MAX idea and go for a real updated one,instead of a modern years 60 designed plane ... But won't happen as money... Yes..

CXB
New types planned for 2019 : A223
New types flown : AN24,AW139,B737MAX8,B763nonER,EMB110 Bandeirante, Shorts360,Autogire MTOsport2010

TLspotting
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by TLspotting » 07 May 2019, 16:04

Icelandair can switch to a all Airbus fleet as they consider to buy A321neo LR, facing MAX problems.
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Passenger
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 07 May 2019, 17:08

sn26567 wrote:
07 May 2019, 13:54
luchtzak wrote:
07 May 2019, 07:55
Tweet removed. I wonder why :?
Flight Sofia-Amsterdam with PH-TFO 737 MAX has been cancelled.
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ph-tfo

Desert Rat
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Desert Rat » 08 May 2019, 07:29

To cut a long story short, the Max is a bit like a lawnmower equipped with a Big-Block Chevy...😎

Luke777
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Luke777 » 08 May 2019, 07:36

Bracebrace wrote:
07 May 2019, 13:23
Poiu wrote:
07 May 2019, 12:21
When it goes tits up the MAX requires flying skills which today’s pilots (JAF probably being a rare exception) don’t have anymore!
I agree for 100 percent with this statement of Poiu, today newbies come on a right seat with passengers and it is their first real flight in a 737 (or 320) is this normal ?

Passenger
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Passenger » 08 May 2019, 08:12

A survey by Barclays on 1.765 airline passengers shows that many people will avoid the 737 MAX once the aircraft is flying again.

Barclays: “...Nearly half won’t fly MAX for year or more. If given the choice between a MAX and another aircraft type on otherwise identical flights, 52% would choose the other aircraft type..."

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/07/barclay ... 7-max.html

Bracebrace
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Bracebrace » 08 May 2019, 09:00

Luke777 wrote:
08 May 2019, 07:36
Bracebrace wrote:
07 May 2019, 13:23
Poiu wrote:
07 May 2019, 12:21
When it goes tits up the MAX requires flying skills which today’s pilots (JAF probably being a rare exception) don’t have anymore!
I agree for 100 percent with this statement of Poiu, today newbies come on a right seat with passengers and it is their first real flight in a 737 (or 320) is this normal ?
I think you misquoted me here... I never made statements on that subject.

But if you believe these "special flying skills", I don't see why "JAF" would be the "rare exception", as JAF is currently the only Belgian airline to train MPL people. Their experience is the lowest of the lowest in aviation. So there is a bit of a contradiction here.

As I said "noise prooves nothing".

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luchtzak
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by luchtzak » 08 May 2019, 09:25

Boeing Max Failed to Apply Safety Lesson From Deadly 2009 Crash (Turkish Airlines crash @ Amsterdam Schiphol)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 2009-crash

737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 08 May 2019, 09:26

Bracebrace wrote:
08 May 2019, 09:00

I think you misquoted me here... I never made statements on that subject.

As for that statement: my experience is I don't see any problem with that. It can be tough in some isolated cases, yes, no need to deny. But it is much much harder to re-train someone with 2000hrs of single engine piston habits that are not to be used on a swept wing jet. On the very basic assumption that they mastered basic IFR attitude flying and basic landing skills (I'm talking 200ft and below) and it is usually the student attitude during flight school that will make the difference. Not the experience.

But if you believe the "special flying skills" I don't see the connection with JAF, as JAF is currently the only Belgian airline to train MPL people. Their experience is the lowest of the lowest in aviation (especially basic landing skills).

As I said "noise prooves nothing".
Poiu had a very short but clear and correct statement earlier on this topic.
You need a good plane, and correctly trained pilots together.

You cannot say that a pilot who never flies manually is a correctly trained pilot. Some airlines push pilots to use automation as from 400ft AGL after take-off until the aircraft is perfectly configured for landing. These pilots never "feel" their plane, they watch what the plane is doing and never, never fly it raw data with manual thrust. Never. They are scared to do that, because they have never been trained to do it and not only that, they are not allowed to do it by their airline. Do you find that acceptable? I don't. You can't ignore there is a problem in the industry with this particular topic, the aircraft accident/incident history in recent cases clearly proves that.

These are not "special flying skills" but basic flying skills every single pilot should have. You talk about the MPL program. These guys will have a PPL and then will be trained in a 737 simulator. The standard required in the real 737 is the same or higher than for "conventional" training. It's just the way to achieve it that is different. New things are scary for some people, but at least give them a chance and see what the result will be. If it doesn't work, they will never be released on the line. Every year they have to kick new F/O's out because they do not have the standards required, it won't be different for MPL guys. Also, these MPL students have been selected out of thousands of applications and are really good guys, not unmotivated rich young boys who want to be pilots for their instagram account. They have a tough training to undergo, and I'm 100% looking forward to be flying with such people.

I was also very skeptical about that MPL program, but I am sure it can be very efficient if the aim is to have highly qualified pilots, with a training given by very experienced & skilled instructors. More efficient than classic flying schools where you only have to pay to get your license with bad skills at the end.

Now the Ethiopian:
Do you find normal that a captain with 8000 hours tries to engage the A/P numerous times with a PFD that shows pitch up indications of 75° with the stick shaker activated? How on earth did he think that would save their a**? He did that only because he does that on every normal take-off. With A/T engaged at all times. Why do you think the thrust remained at 94% for "most of the flight"? See how fast their speed was increasing by reading the graphs on the accident report. Scary, really.

Should we go further with:

The EK 777 f***-up go around at DXB?
Or the Turkish 737 at AMS?
Or the Asiana 777 at SFO?

Just a small edit; this is my opinion based on flying the 737. It's still a classic plane that sometimes has to be flown as a classic plane. If you are lucky to fly a modern plane, such as the 320, then I imagine your opinion on this matter might be completely, completely different.

737MAX
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by 737MAX » 08 May 2019, 09:31

luchtzak wrote:
08 May 2019, 09:25
Boeing Max Failed to Apply Safety Lesson From Deadly 2009 Crash (Turkish Airlines crash @ Amsterdam Schiphol)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... 2009-crash
If they had learned, they would have dropped the MAX and created a completely new plane. On that, I completely agree.

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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by luchtzak » 08 May 2019, 09:44


Bracebrace
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Re: Boeing 737 (MAX) news

Post by Bracebrace » 08 May 2019, 10:50

737MAX wrote:
08 May 2019, 09:26
Bracebrace wrote:
08 May 2019, 09:00

I think you misquoted me here... I never made statements on that subject.

As for that statement: my experience is I don't see any problem with that. It can be tough in some isolated cases, yes, no need to deny. But it is much much harder to re-train someone with 2000hrs of single engine piston habits that are not to be used on a swept wing jet. On the very basic assumption that they mastered basic IFR attitude flying and basic landing skills (I'm talking 200ft and below) and it is usually the student attitude during flight school that will make the difference. Not the experience.

But if you believe the "special flying skills" I don't see the connection with JAF, as JAF is currently the only Belgian airline to train MPL people. Their experience is the lowest of the lowest in aviation (especially basic landing skills).

As I said "noise prooves nothing".
Poiu had a very short but clear and correct statement earlier on this topic.
You need a good plane, and correctly trained pilots together.

You cannot say that a pilot who never flies manually is a correctly trained pilot. Some airlines push pilots to use automation as from 400ft AGL after take-off until the aircraft is perfectly configured for landing. These pilots never "feel" their plane, they watch what the plane is doing and never, never fly it raw data with manual thrust. Never. They are scared to do that, because they have never been trained to do it and not only that, they are not allowed to do it by their airline. Do you find that acceptable? I don't. You can't ignore there is a problem in the industry with this particular topic, the aircraft accident/incident history in recent cases clearly proves that.

These are not "special flying skills" but basic flying skills every single pilot should have. You talk about the MPL program. These guys will have a PPL and then will be trained in a 737 simulator. The standard required in the real 737 is the same or higher than for "conventional" training. It's just the way to achieve it that is different. New things are scary for some people, but at least give them a chance and see what the result will be. If it doesn't work, they will never be released on the line. Every year they have to kick new F/O's out because they do not have the standards required, it won't be different for MPL guys. Also, these MPL students have been selected out of thousands of applications and are really good guys, not unmotivated rich young boys who want to be pilots for their instagram account. They have a tough training to undergo, and I'm 100% looking forward to be flying with such people.

I was also very skeptical about that MPL program, but I am sure it can be very efficient if the aim is to have highly qualified pilots, with a training given by very experienced & skilled instructors. More efficient than classic flying schools where you only have to pay to get your license with bad skills at the end.

Now the Ethiopian:
Do you find normal that a captain with 8000 hours tries to engage the A/P numerous times with a PFD that shows pitch up indications of 75° with the stick shaker activated? How on earth did he think that would save their a**? He did that only because he does that on every normal take-off. With A/T engaged at all times. Why do you think the thrust remained at 94% for "most of the flight"? See how fast their speed was increasing by reading the graphs on the accident report. Scary, really.

Should we go further with:

The EK 777 f***-up go around at DXB?
Or the Turkish 737 at AMS?
Or the Asiana 777 at SFO?

Just a small edit; this is my opinion based on flying the 737. It's still a classic plane that sometimes has to be flown as a classic plane. If you are lucky to fly a modern plane, such as the 320, then I imagine your opinion on this matter might be completely, completely different.
As far as the Ethiopian goes, one word: confusion. Like AF447. They did not know what to focus on. That doesn't mean I agree with what you said on that topic, I personally don't understand either how someone can leave the pitch at +10° above FL300... but it happened. Somebody did. And I do not consider all JAF pilots completely prone to that confusion idea.

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